counsel needed about meeting with my pastor

B

BenK Feb 19, 2008

I have been praying and thinking about some things for quite awhile now and I would like to seek some Godly counsel about a meeting that I have with my pastor this afternoon

I know that he is a christian who loves Jesus and believes in the Word as inerrant. He is a humble and loving man. BUT there is something very much lacking in His sermons-He does not make much of Christ. Of course he talks about Jesus but it seems like there is not a great emphasis on just what Christ does and who He is. He doesn't talk about the exceeding sinfulness of sin-instead he refers to the sinner as being "kind of broken inside OR having a sin problem" which I don't really see as a Biblical description. He doesn't talk much about repentance and never about hell even though I know from personal conversation that he knows and believes in both.

I've been the worship leader at our church for about 6 months(it's a volounteer thing) and I every week I find myself "filling in the blanks" in between songs as I attempt to talk about and explain the awesome majesty of Jesus, the unthinkable kindness of His sacrifice to save us from judgement and hell, and the life and hope that we have been born into. There has been a couple occasions where he has led the congregation in a time of prayer and searching of hearts and I treasure those kinds of moments amongst the mediocrity. I feel like he is attempting to be "practical" and "relevant" in His teaching, but as for me, I wan't to hear about my master!

Does anyone have advice or scripture to help me as I go into this meeting today? I'm going to spill my heart and I am dreading it because I'm afraid the end result will be to take my wife and leave the people in this church that we have become so close to. Not that we would abandon our friends, but we would not be in the same fellowship which could be difficult.

Really my only agenda is to see Jesus Christ magnified and glorified to the highest place in this church.

sermonindex Feb 19, 2008

Brother, I think if you just talk to him exactly as you have written here... you'll be fine. I dont have much more to add to it. I think you're right on the money.

Dont white wash it, speak it plainly to him.

Krispy

I

iansmith Feb 19, 2008

I'm going to have to go counter to Krispy on this one... not in content but in form.

Before you confront your pastor, pray. If you haven't been praying for him on a weekly basis that he exaults Jesus in his sermons, then you haven't the right to confront him. God answers prayer.

Once I made the same observation of one of the associate pastors at my church, he preached a Christless sermon. I didn't confront him about it, but I did pray for him, and this past Sunday he preached a sermon that was entirely about Jesus. God answers prayer. From arctic winter to tropical summer, nothing is impossible with God.

sermonindex Feb 19, 2008

Of course I agree with Ian. Much prayer is needed, and you do need to be sure God is leading you to do this.

The difference is, I do feel that if God is leading you to confront him, then you need to confront him. Sometimes God uses us as the instrument to wake someone up.

Krispy

B

BenK Feb 19, 2008

You are so right Ian, and I have been praying for him regularly for a couple of months now. I really feel like I need to say something at this point....I believe that God can work in his heart but I am weighted down by week after week of teaching that means so little to me and I fear that might keep many in the congregation asleep and spiritually lazy. I am not looking forward to this meeting but I have talked to a some trusted friends and they too think that this is the right thing to do. I am sad and heavy over this. Please pray for me.

sermonindex Feb 19, 2008

Hi Ben,

I know I'm a little late coming in here, but I'm praying.

I want to add - there may be good reason this man doesn't feel at liberty to speak as you would have him speak - for instance, he may be burdened by his position which makes him feel uneasy about seeking God more openly ~~[i]~~for himself[/i] - like it costs him some loss of face instead of seeing it as one of the joys of leadership to go first, to show others how it's done.

Also I would add, that he may be eating up your ministry beyond anything you could imagine, perhaps believing you have a particular gift.

Somehow, then, if you can see yourself as part of the body into which you both have been placed by the Lord, perhaps you can find the gentle courage to 'lead' him into a deeper place, without making him feel like a failure, or exposing his timidity or unbelief in a public way. In thinking this through as I'm writing, perhaps this involves a death for you also. But... not a separation from this particular body of believers?

May you find the wisdom and grace in those moments of conversation. I'm sure the Lord intends to use you to bring greater glory to His name.

I

iansmith Feb 19, 2008

I heard a message recently at a missionary training event aimed at us missionary zealouts. It was very insightful, and I'll try to break it down to its core message:

Just because your pastor doesn't share your passion for missions doesn't mean he's living outside the will of God. He may have been gifted with spiritual gifts of nurturing and teaching, and may not have been given any missionary gift by God, so demanding him to see things your way is actually outside of the will of God. Instead of trying to change your pastor, be faithful where you are and be a positive example of the blessing that a mission focused person can bring to a local congregation, then buy your pastor a plane ticket to visit a mission field short term, because that usually does more than you argueing with him.

My advice would be... buy your pastor a ticket to a revival conference (or THE revival conference) and be passionate about Jesus where you are.

B

BenK Feb 20, 2008

Thank you Ian, Krispy and Dorcas for your prayer and insights. Each one of you offered me something good to consider. The meeting went fairly well. He doesn't really see where I'm coming from but He definitely was challenged and told me that he wants to continue the conversation and is going to consider the things we were talking about. The conversation was full of brotherly love even though there was disagreement and I praise God that the Spirit was definitely at work in that room.
We prayed together and I'm sure we will resume our discussion very soon.
God is faithful! Even though I fail again and again I pray that Jesus would be found more and more in every thought that I think and every word that I speak.
I'm thankful that I have family on this site that I have never met javascript: justReturn()
:-P

N

Nellie Feb 20, 2008

BenK,
Hope you realize what a good Pastor you have.
Thank-God things went well with you, and you will talk again.
I'm glad I didn't advise you not to go, for it would have just been because of the way I've been treated in the past when I talked with the one who was my Pastor then.
It is wonderful that you can talk to your Pastor.
God Bless you, and may you win many souls to Him.
Nellie

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

Praise God, Ben!

Remember, he is a man just like you... struggling to work out his salvation, and walk down that very narrow road. While I firmly believe church leaders should be bold and have a backbone, I do know from experience that church leaders are not perfect. I'm considered a church leader, and I know I am far from perfect. In fact, I think everyone on this forum is well aware of the fact that I am far from perfect! lol

Krispy

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

Maybe God is calling YOU to preach. If you have a better way of presenting the gospel than maybe you need to start another church somewhere before you hurt this mans ministry or him.

M

Miccah Feb 20, 2008

chiefosiners wrote:

Maybe God is calling YOU to preach. If you have a better way of presenting the gospel than maybe you need to start another church somewhere before you hurt this mans ministry or him

:-(

P

PreachParsly Feb 20, 2008

chiefosiners wrote:
Maybe God is calling YOU to preach. If you have a better way of presenting the gospel than maybe you need to start another church somewhere before you hurt this mans ministry or him.

This is nonsense. Maybe you should consider more what you say before you hurt someone that is just genuinely concerned.

I know I'm being blunt but why would you even respond like this?

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

I agree with Preach... very poor advice. It's that kind of attitude that turned me off from the traditional churches. "Dont agree w/ the pastor? Leave!"

This is not the example Paul set for us. He commended those who study the scriptures to see if what they were being taught is the truth. And the implication is that when they heard something that didnt seem to line up with scripture... they didnt just leave... they challenged the preacher. Not to be "show-offs", but for the welfare and growth of the church AND the preacher.

Preachers who consider themselves above being challenged have a name: ~~[b]~~tyrants[/b].

Fortunately, the preacher in question on this thread does not seem to be a tyrant.

The advice you put forth here, cheifofsiners, is not Biblical or godly.

Krispy

P

PreachParsly Feb 20, 2008

If the church is to really be a community like setting you are going to have discussions like this. If the pastor can preach a challenging message to the congregation, what is wrong with someone challenging the pastor in private? I'm not referring to nit-piking or anything like that. If a preacher stood and said, "You need to make sure you are presenting the Gospel clearly to those who you share the truth with." No one would question it, but if someone went to the pastor and said (in love), "Brother I want to exhort you to make sure you are presenting the whole council of God to your congregation" some think it's rebellion against "authority."

Iron sharpens iron. Pastors don't come out of the womb sharp as a knife while everyone else needs work. If there is a relationship of trust and love between the pastor and another leader (which seems to be the case here) the response is going to be just like it was here. That is, things were brought up that should be considered, praying together, and fellowship. I think it's great. Isn't this what the church is suppose to do?

Hbr 10:25\t\tNot forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; ~~[b]~~but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/b]

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree with Preach... very poor advice. It's that kind of attitude that turned me off from the traditional churches. "Dont agree w/ the pastor? Leave!"
This is not the example Paul set for us. He commended those who study the scriptures to see if what they were being taught is the truth. And the implication is that when they heard something that didnt seem to line up with scripture... they didnt just leave... they challenged the preacher. Not to be "show-offs", but for the welfare and growth of the church AND the preacher.
Preachers who consider themselves above being challenged have a name: ~~[b]~~tyrants[/b].
Fortunately, the preacher in question on this thread does not seem to be a tyrant.
The advice you put forth here, cheifofsiners, is not Biblical or godly.
Krispy

Look, I'm just as concerned as the next person about how the gospel is presented, but I've seen it happen too many times. Someone, (usually someone in leadership) gets the idea that the preacher is not doing a good enough job and before you know it theres caos in the church. Everyone is trying to lead, none has any confidence in the preacher anymore because someone who had a better idea about how it should be done started to question the pastor and his authority. If God is done with him than he'll be gone soon enough, if not than it's time to go down the road somewhere.

What pastors need is encouragement. If he's a worship leader than his influence in the church is pretty great. If I were to go to my preacher and tell him I did'nt think he was doing it right he would be so hurt. If he's preaching heresy and trying to flease the flock than that's a different story. If he's genuinely doing the best he can than let God work in him, have confidence in the man of God.

I may have been a little too harsh and if I was than I do apologize, it just bothers me when I see this kind of thing.

Listen, God uses the weak and beggarly elements of the world to confound the wise. You never know who might need the very message he is preaching. Just because he's not presenting Christ the way you might think he should does'nt mean someone else is not hearing that message.

How many church splits started just like this? It would probably blow our mind if we knew.

As for me i'm all about supporting the pastor through whatever storm he might be going through and encouraging him rather than questioning his ability. Even if he were to miss the mark completely, I would really pray hard before I ever went to him about my own perspective. That could be a devistating blow to a pastor, you don't know, he might be on the verge of throwing his hands up and quiting.

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

Hi chief,

You recommended

I would really pray hard before I ever went to him

This is how the thread started:

BenK said

I have been praying and thinking about some things for quite awhile now

Seems to me he ticked that box okay.

sermonindex Feb 20, 2008

Look, I'm just as concerned as the next person about how the gospel is presented, but I've seen it happen too many times. Someone, (usually someone in leadership) gets the idea that the preacher is not doing a good enough job and before you know it theres caos in the church. Everyone is trying to lead, none has any confidence in the preacher anymore because someone who had a better idea about how it should be done started to question the pastor and his authority. If God is done with him than he'll be gone soon enough, if not than it's time to go down the road somewhere.
What pastors need is encouragement. If he's a worship leader than his influence in the church is pretty great. If I were to go to my preacher and tell him I did'nt think he was doing it right he would be so hurt. If he's preaching heresy and trying to flease the flock than that's a different story. If he's genuinely doing the best he can than let God work in him, have confidence in the man of God.
I may have been a little too harsh and if I was than I do apologize, it just bothers me when I see this kind of thing.
Listen, God uses the weak and beggarly elements of the world to confound the wise. You never know who might need the very message he is preaching. Just because he's not presenting Christ the way you might think he should does'nt mean someone else is not hearing that message.
How many church splits started just like this? It would probably blow our mind if we knew.
As for me i'm all about supporting the pastor through whatever storm he might be going through and encouraging him rather than questioning his ability. Even if he were to miss the mark completely, I would really pray hard before I ever went to him about my own perspective. That could be a devistating blow to a pastor, you don't know, he might be on the verge of throwing his hands up and quiting.

This is a lot of huff and puff over nothing because what you're describing here has nothing at all to do with anything that has been said in this thread!

A brother came on here to ask us how we would handle this situation. I think he handled it Biblically and maturely. He didnt go public with his concerns, he didnt drag the pastor's name thru the mud, he didnt turn anyone against the pastor. He met privately ~~[b]~~just as scripture[/b] as told us to.

And the end result? A productive conversation... a pastor who is willing to listen and consider what this brother has to say... and promise to meet again to further discuss the issues.

What in the world more could we ask for? I think it's wonderful. It blows my mind how you can possibly think it isnt!

So then you post this 6 paragraph diatribe about "pastor bashing" that is totally unrelated to what we're talking about here.

I would recommend you re-read the entire thread one more time... and slower. You've obviously missed something.

Am I saying everything you wrote is wrong? No, not saying that at all... just saying it is totally and completely irrelevant to THIS conversation.

As for me i'm all about supporting the pastor through whatever storm he might be going through and encouraging him rather than questioning his ability.

First off, I never felt that this brother was questioning his pastors ability. Secondly, we should support the pastor. But maybe you need to consider that part of supporting the pastor is speaking the truth to him when he needs to hear it. Challenging is not MEAN... it's LOVING. It is for our growth. I'm not being mean when I challenge one of my kids, am I? No! I'm helping them to grow. It's not comfortable when it's happening, but if its done out of love and concern, the end result is beautiful.

Unfortunately, everything cant be flowers and pastel colors. Relationships are hard. Growing is hard. And one thing that is NOT healthy for the church is a lot of fluff... and a lot of turning a blind eye to things that need to be addressed. THAT, my friend, is more detrimental the health of the church than any of the things which you listed.

Krispy

M

Miccah Feb 20, 2008

chiefosiners wrote:

I may have been a little too harsh and if I was than I do apologize

Your forgiven :-)

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Look, I'm just as concerned as the next person about how the gospel is presented, but I've seen it happen too many times. Someone, (usually someone in leadership) gets the idea that the preacher is not doing a good enough job and before you know it theres caos in the church. Everyone is trying to lead, none has any confidence in the preacher anymore because someone who had a better idea about how it should be done started to question the pastor and his authority. If God is done with him than he'll be gone soon enough, if not than it's time to go down the road somewhere.
What pastors need is encouragement. If he's a worship leader than his influence in the church is pretty great. If I were to go to my preacher and tell him I did'nt think he was doing it right he would be so hurt. If he's preaching heresy and trying to flease the flock than that's a different story. If he's genuinely doing the best he can than let God work in him, have confidence in the man of God.
I may have been a little too harsh and if I was than I do apologize, it just bothers me when I see this kind of thing.
Listen, God uses the weak and beggarly elements of the world to confound the wise. You never know who might need the very message he is preaching. Just because he's not presenting Christ the way you might think he should does'nt mean someone else is not hearing that message.
How many church splits started just like this? It would probably blow our mind if we knew.
As for me i'm all about supporting the pastor through whatever storm he might be going through and encouraging him rather than questioning his ability. Even if he were to miss the mark completely, I would really pray hard before I ever went to him about my own perspective. That could be a devistating blow to a pastor, you don't know, he might be on the verge of throwing his hands up and quiting.
This is a lot of huff and puff over nothing because what you're describing here has nothing at all to do with anything that has been said in this thread!
A brother came on here to ask us how we would handle this situation. I think he handled it Biblically and maturely. He didnt go public with his concerns, he didnt drag the pastor's name thru the mud, he didnt turn anyone against the pastor. He met privately ~~[b]~~just as scripture[/b] as told us to.
And the end result? A productive conversation... a pastor who is willing to listen and consider what this brother has to say... and promise to meet again to further discuss the issues.
What in the world more could we ask for? I think it's wonderful. It blows my mind how you can possibly think it isnt!
So then you post this 6 paragraph diatribe about "pastor bashing" that is totally unrelated to what we're talking about here.
I would recommend you re-read the entire thread one more time... and slower. You've obviously missed something.
Am I saying everything you wrote is wrong? No, not saying that at all... just saying it is totally and completely irrelevant to THIS conversation.

As for me i'm all about supporting the pastor through whatever storm he might be going through and encouraging him rather than questioning his ability.
First off, I never felt that this brother was questioning his pastors ability. Secondly, we should support the pastor. But maybe you need to consider that part of supporting the pastor is speaking the truth to him when he needs to hear it. Challenging is not MEAN... it's LOVING. It is for our growth. I'm not being mean when I challenge one of my kids, am I? No! I'm helping them to grow. It's not comfortable when it's happening, but if its done out of love and concern, the end result is beautiful.
Unfortunately, everything cant be flowers and pastel colors. Relationships are hard. Growing is hard. And one thing that is NOT healthy for the church is a lot of fluff... and a lot of turning a blind eye to things that need to be addressed. THAT, my friend, is more detrimental the health of the church than any of the things which you listed.
Krispy

Thats the way you saw things, I saw something different, maybe I'm wrong, but maybe your wrong.
As you said sometimes when your blunt and to the point it's uncomfortable. I had a brother tell me this exact thing one time, someone that was a good friend of mine. He was our youth director at one time and then God called him to another church. I called him upset one night because I did'nt like the way this new guy taught, and he set me straight real quick. It actually made me mad at first but after I though about it, I realized he was right. The truth hurts sometimes just like you said. It's not all pastel colors and fluff.