Does ALL mean ALL? | SermonIndex

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

I thought I'd start this thread from ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22347&forum=35]~~Replacement Theology Thread[/url] because the Rabbit trail was getting interesting but it was also thwarting the original line of thinking.

This quote comes from LoveHim.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." now you have to ask, does all men mean all men or just all kinds of all men?

The thing is Phil is this, you know that scripture will answer that question. We know that not all men have received Jesus Christ. So the "all" that Jesus is referring to is that He has taken all men unto Himself on the cross.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one[Adam] judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one[Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the light of these 3 verses, are ALL men Justified? Are ALL men in Christ Jesus? Are ALL men saved?

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

Furthermore, I brought ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22347&forum=35&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0]~~post[/url] over from the Replacement Theology because it belongs here as well.

I said:

You know we look at this verse and think that "All" means "All", and it doesn't. "All" means those Jews who have been predestined to be conformed in the image of Christ. That happened by the way, beginning at Pentecost until the last day of the 70th week. (blah blah blah right?)

I want to look at two verse (I am going to save space and just deal with the verses that I am dealing with for my context friends)

Quote:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They are not "all" Israel, which are of Israel.

Next:
Quote:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Lets wrap these verses together.

You have, "Not ALL Israel is of Israel" and then you have "All Israel shall be saved". Would anyone agree that he is not speaking for all of the nation of Israel, but only those that are truly are OF Israel? (he that hath ears to hear let him hear)

I am going to present to you two more verses and for space sake, you can look it up on it's context.
Quote:

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

When did this everlasting salvation come?

Wouldn't you agree that when Jesus was born that Salvation had come?
Quote:

Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Remember Jesus came to the house of David, NOT to the gentiles.

I mean how many times does the LORD have to turn back to the Jews, when He gave His only begotten Son? If you remember, God sent prophet after prophet and they kept killing them, and finally the LORD said, I will send my Son, surely they will reverence Him, but they saw Him as the heir of all things and killed Him as well. God came and destroyed that nation and let His house out to others who will bring in the crop thereof.

Your traditional teachings are making void the word of God.

Here is another,
Quote:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We only deal with the law being fulfilled here, but it's also mentions the words of the prophets. How come we can't fathom that Jesus fulfilled all that was spoken of in the law and the prophets?

All Israel was saved long ago before the vineyard was taken away from the husbandmen that was killing the prophets.
Quote:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It was ABANDONED by God!

If you can answer when the Deliver has come, then you'll also know when All Israel was saved.

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

In the light of these 3 verses, are ALL men Justified? Are ALL men in Christ Jesus? Are ALL men saved?

The answer to this question is no... not ALL men are justified. Not ALL men are in Christ Jesus. And obviously ALL men are not saved.

However, Jesus Christ did die for ALL of the sins of ALL men. But... (and this is a big but) His sacrifice for us only becomes effective for those who accept it.

In other words, here is a gift in a box with pretty wrapping paper and a bow. I want you to have this gift (it's a black 2008 Mustang GT)... but it doesnt become yours until you take ownership of it. You have to accept the gift.

Christ's blood is available to ALL men. But most men will refuse it. Limited Atonement is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

I reject the idea that God created the majority of mankind simply to make them sin without any say so in the matter, then judge them accountable for the sins that He made then commit... and then cast them into eternal punishment. Simple for His "good pleasure".

Thats not justice.

No, God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, the WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not parish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, ~~[b]~~not willing that ANY should perish[/b], but that ~~[b]~~ALL[/b] should come to repentance.

ALL means ALL. I know Calvinism redefines "all" and "world" and other words indicating all... but thats because they have to in order for their system of theology to stand. Funny thing is tho, there are other systems of theology that re-define words in the Bible to make the Bible fit their beliefs... they are called Mormons, JW's, etc etc.

Krispy

C

crsschk Feb 21, 2008

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." now you have to ask, does all men mean all men or just all kinds of all men?

~~[i]~~ Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.[/i] Joh 12:31-33

Seems to need the greater context. Not to forget the allusion to the lifting up of the brazen serpent on the pole.

There is a sense of;

~~[i]~~That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;[/i] Php 2:10

That 'all' or ~~[i]~~every knee[/i], '~~[i]~~Now is the judgment of this world[/i]'.

~~[i]~~And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.[/i] Num 21:9

~~[i]~~And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.[/i] Act 2:21

That may seem to leave out the aspect of ~~[i]~~drawing all men[/i] as is the more common conundrum, i.e. Who\\who does what, when, election\\predestination ... But maybe the trouble is in semantics; 'All' are held guilty, 'All' have sinned and fallen short, 'All' men must come before the judgment.

And yet ... ~~[i]~~whosoever[/i] ...

Has been 'bitten', if he will but behold ...
Shall call ...
... whosoever believeth in him should not perish.

A very key word that one of our own brought out here recently and grabbed my attention as I had not taken notice of it;

~~[i]~~signifying[/i]

A great many verses containing or explaining rather the context with that lone word.

Just some thoughts.

L

LoveHim Feb 21, 2008

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one[Adam] judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one[Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

so by adam's offense, judgement came to all men right? how do we enter into that judgement? simply by birth correct?

~~[b]~~even so[/b] by Christ's righteousness, the free gift came to all men right? how do we enter into that free gift? simply by new birth (john 3:3).

brother compliments, this very verse shows us that Jesus has made His gift free to all by His righteousness. the question is now "have you received His free gift by new birth"??

phil

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

brother compliments, this very verse shows us that Jesus has made His gift free to all by His righteousness. the question is now "have you received His free gift by new birth"??

~~[b]~~Exactly![/b]

Anytime semantic cart wheels have to be done with scripture in order to help a theology make sense... that is a red flag.

Let scripture speak for itself... without the help of the Oppressor of Geneva.

Krispy

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

ALL means ALL.

Not, all of the time.

Luke 2:1
1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be taxed.

Mexico was not taxed. The decree did not go to china. All does not mean all in this case. It is a universal term we all use all of the time. Well, not all of us. Get it?

How about this one Luke 2:10

10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Did it bring joy to the pharisees or other evil doers?

I am not convinced that all always means all.

Not trying to justify the Calvinist aurgument...just making a point.

L

LoveHim Feb 21, 2008

I am not convinced that all always means all.

brother i understand what you mean. i totally get what you are saying. i was gonna write a response to a verse you used, but it's not that important. here is what i would rather focus on.

romans 5:18 "18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

the question i have is this. did judgement come to all men because of adam? was it all men or just all kinds of men? we will all probably say "yes, to all men". then the verse says ~~[b]~~even so[/b] because of His righteous act, the free gift came to all men.

so either the judgement of adam and free gift of Christ did not come to all men or they did. but this verse combines both as going to all men, so we have to decide if it means what it says or means all kinds of all types of people.

i believe here in this verse that all means all, but hey that's just how i see this verse. ;-)

your brother,
phil

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

How about this one Luke 2:10
10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Did it bring joy to the pharisees or other evil doers?

Actually, this only bolsters what I said earlier.

The angels were correct, they did bring good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Whether or not the pharisees or evil doers accepted it as good news did not change the fact that it was good news... and was intended for all people.

It's like me saying the sky is blue. This is a true statement... but if you reject this truth, does it mean the sky really isnt blue? No, just means you're an idiot. ;-)

(that was an attempt at humor... dont stone me!)

Krispy

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

dont stone me!

I wouldn’t dream of it. I might hurt the rock! :-P

Love ya brother...even when your wrong.

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

Actually, this only bolsters what I said earlier.
The angels were correct, they did bring good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Whether or not the pharisees or evil doers accepted it as good news did not change the fact that it was good news... and was intended for all people.

Shall is not conditional. It means it will be. This is not about whether they accept it or not. It IS good news…for those to whom He is speaking. It was not good news to some.

What you are saying only fits if you substitute the word could in place of shall.

Just a different view...

As for bolstering your position… I find it amazing how after you are set in your way…everything SEEMS to bolster your position…somehow. :-)

L

LoveHim Feb 21, 2008

I wouldn’t dream of it. I might hurt the rock!

nice! that's pretty funny.

phil

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

I wouldn’t dream of it. I might hurt the rock!

Have you been talking to my wife? This sounds like something she would say! :-?

Shall is not conditional. It means it will be. This is not about whether they accept it or not. It IS good news…for those to whom He is speaking. It was not good news to some.

This passage that you are trying to proove that "all" doesnt mean "all" just doesnt work for you. Anyone who reads that passage without trying to fit some preconceived notion into it... just reads it at face value in the context of scripture as a whole... knows exactly what that verse means. It is good news and shall be onto all people. It doesnt mean all will accept it. It means for everyone. Good news is good news whether you think it is or not.

This is what I mean when I say semantics games have to be used to make Calvinism work. We read it, and we instinctively know what it means. But here comes the Calvinist to explain to us that no, it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.

The God I serve doesnt go out of His way to complicate things for us. Some things are beyong our understanding, obviously, but He did not give us His Word in cryptic messages that we need a Calvinist decoder ring in order to understand.

Krispy

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I wouldn’t dream of it. I might hurt the rock!
Have you been talking to my wife? This sounds like something she would say! :-?

Shall is not conditional. It means it will be. This is not about whether they accept it or not. It IS good news…for those to whom He is speaking. It was not good news to some.
This passage that you are trying to proove that "all" doesnt mean "all" just doesnt work for you. Anyone who reads that passage without trying to fit some preconceived notion into it... just reads it at face value in the context of scripture as a whole... knows exactly what that verse means. It is good news and shall be onto all people. It doesnt mean all will accept it. It means for everyone. Good news is good news whether you think it is or not.
This is what I mean when I say semantics games have to be used to make Calvinism work. We read it, and we instinctively know what it means. But here comes the Calvinist to explain to us that no, it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.
The God I serve doesnt go out of His way to complicate things for us. Some things are beyong our understanding, obviously, but He did not give us His Word in cryptic messages that we need a Calvinist decoder ring in order to understand.
Krispy

I Disagree. I think it is logical to view it another way as well. You are right…It is good news! To me…and others who are saved. Do you think it was(is) good news for those who oppose Him? Do you think it was (is) good news to satan? Of course not! It is only good news to those that are His…ALL of those who are His.

The Bible says it will be good news for all. Yet it was not good news to everyone. It seems very logical to me that this would mean that the “all” is referring to all of His people. Meaning it will not be good news for satan’s followers, but for ALL of His people.

Not too deep or tricky at ALL.:-P

I believe Calvinism is a little deeper than this simple word play.

Once again I am not a Calvinist. I am one who desires to know God more and the study of theology helps me.

H

hmmhmm Feb 21, 2008

but if the word ALL dont really mean ALL, are there more words that it is the same with?

how do we tell what words mean what they say and which ones dont? do we need a gnostic guru to tell us?

I mean if it says God is Holy, can we say it maybe dont mean he really is holy... or when it says he will save us from our sin, how do we know that passage really means he will save us, who can we chose and say which passages mean what they say? and which ones dont?

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

Somethings that are so abundantly clear to some people, are not clear to others.

All is a universal term. Look it up. Holy is not. Holy means holy unless you redefine it. It is not a universal term like all is. No one is redefining the word all...just pointing out that it does not always encompass everyone.

Universal terms are used all the time...well not all the time...I mean I do use other terms once and awhile...get it.

This is far different from redefining terms such as holy.

T

tjservant Feb 21, 2008

My nephew was eating a cheeseburger the other day and I commented on how he must really love them. He said he eats them all the time.

The truth is…he sleeps some time. Therefore he could not eat them all of the time. His use of the word ALL could not possibly mean every minute of everyday.

I am not a Calvinist, but I clearly see what is being said about universal terms. They are not redefining words…just showing how certain words can be and are commonly used in different ways. All does not always mean all.

I have heard ministers say things like, ”Everybody’s done that before”, when there are people on the earth who have not done it. Do you call them liars, or accept their use of a universal term?

I hope this sheds some light on what I believe many Calvinists are saying about universal terms.

Just my 2 cents

L

LoveHim Feb 21, 2008

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
the question i have is this. did judgement come to all men because of adam? was it all men or just all kinds of men? we will all probably say "yes, to all men". then the verse says even so because of His righteous act, the free gift came to all men

brother tj, can you please answer the question. did adam's trespass or offense mean judgement for ALL MEN (everyone ever born)or ALL KINDS OF MEN (with some men not affected)? i've posted this twice and it's not been addressed, so i am asking you what you think this verse is saying. did adam's offense affect all men or just all kinds of men?

just asking brother:-D
phil

M

mission101 Feb 21, 2008

I think that ALL means ALL in most situations dicussed in the bible. If it didn't then why do we in missions take the great commission seriously when Jesus said that we must teach All nations and preach unto All peoples??

The verse mentioned earlier in Luke about All the world isn't it commonly accepted that it was All the known world?

I believe that Jesus wanted to see people from every kindred, tongue, tribe, and nation to glorify him.

sermonindex Feb 21, 2008

This is what I mean when I say semantics games have to be used to make Calvinism work. We read it, and we instinctively know what it means. But here comes the Calvinist to explain to us that no, it doesn't mean what it says... it means something else.

It's just not a Calvy thing, we do it ~~[b]~~all[/b] (:-P) the time. We turn to the greek to get a better understanding of words being used. I have heard preachers, and lay folk alike say, "This is what it says in the original greek, it should've been translated this way". And the preacher that I am quoting from is an Arminianest. But I have seen many people do that on this site, and in online ministries and on tv, and radio.