What do you do if you cannot find a good bible teaching church? Settle for a seeker type church?

I have had a hard time finding a church. All of the churches I have visited have been compromising, no focus on Jesus, no prayer meetings, no preaching on sin, or convicting sermons. I just cant take the searching process.
A couple invited me out to lunch from a church that i had recently visited. They said they noticed i had been coming a few Sundays and asked me if I was considering membership.

It took so much to hold back what i really felt about this church, but I told them. I had visited their church about four times, not once have I heard anything mentioned about sin, the Holy Spirit, Holy Living, Ministering to the poor, salvation. Nothing. I told them that I was looking for God in the church, but I have yet to see him. I do find Mass marketing techniques, spiritual cliche's many financialy secure people. Heck the pastor even mentioned that if the congregation tops 4000 people on easter he and his staff would ride a bull.
I wanted to tell them that I just cannot stomach all of the foolishness that goes on in the church, but i did not want to offend. I find this in Many if not all of the churches I have visited. Just a bunch of Gimmicks. The music is good, but that is only to draw people in to a false sense of spirituality. They even had survey cards passed out to evaluate what you like best about the church. Pastor David Wilkerson spoke of this years ago. It is so disheartening.

I was wondering if anyone else has this same challenge and what do you do in the meantime.

Yul

Hello Yul...

Do you live in a rural community? If so, why not start your own Bible study? You could invite other believers that you have met and discuss passages from the Word of God. If you are in need of a strong message, you could play sermons from SermonIndex. I've had Bible studies in my college dorm where I actually played messages from Leonard Ravenhill, Wilkerson, etc... and even pushed "pause" sometimes for discussion. Eventually, such a fellowship has the potential to turn into a "house church" similar to those spoken of by brother Krispy here in the forums and what is mentioned in the books of Acts. Remember, there were no temples in the New Testament. Believers often met in one another's homes where they shared bread and the Bread of Life.

Do you live in (or near) a larger community? You might try searching just a little more intently. I've seen some wonderful congregations that weren't included in the phone book under "churches" (although that is a nice place to search). In fact, the congregation with which I fellowship now is not listed in the phone book. The church is extremely small (under 80 people), but it is quite refreshing. There aren't any world promotions, special "Sundays" or offering drives. The pastor even works full time as a nurse (while his wife is a school teacher). The church doesn't have a single full-time employee. But it is amazing to feel so relaxed amongst the people of God! The youth go to summer camp in August. The theme? "Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?" (the epitaph of Leonard Ravenhill). They even made special t-shirts with that phrase.

Yul, I will be praying for your search. I think that we can all identify with your plight. There is certainly a famine in the land in regard to the sure Word of the Lord. But take heart: God has reserved for Himself a people who have not bowed their knees to Baal or this modern Gospel of "fluff."

May the Lord lead you to green pastures and still waters.

:-)

"Mind not High Things"

We can understand how a man gifted with wisdom would write about great and lofty things; but God would show us that men of wisdom are concerned also about little things. It reminds us of Paul's admonition: "Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate," (Romans 12:16).

Much reference is made in Scripture to both the Cedar and the Hyssop; but whereas the Cedar speaks of stature and honour and glory, the Hyssop always relates to sacrifice... and therefore to humility, weakness and contrition of heart. Other than this I knew nothing about the plant itself. But after having been impressed to minister on the "hyssop" relative to its weakness and sacrificial character, I felt to put it in writing; and I have since looked up a number of reference books concerning it. I found it grows in dry places, out in the full sun. It is particularly suited to a rockery, and this may be inferred in the statement that it "springeth out of the wall"--perhaps a terraced rock wall. It is low-growing, up to about 2 feet. It is native to Egypt. It has strong wiry stems, with bunches of flowers and leaves. Produces small bluish-purple flowers, and has a sweet fragrance. It is a bitter herb, belonging to the mint family, and was once used for medicinal purposes. It seemed to grow plentifully in Egypt, for on the Passover night it was readily obtainable to every Israelitish family, who would use it for the sprinkling of the blood. It was used for various sacrificial purposes in the Levitical order, and therefore must have grown extensively in the wilderness also. It is always associated with "sacrifice"... so that even at Calvary, when the supreme Sacrifice was being offered, mention is again made of the lowly "hyssop."

Solomon, a great and Wise man, was impressed to write about the weak, insignificant "hyssop." Great men are always small enough to take note of little things. They are concerned about the weak. Jesus stood still at the cry of a blind beggar. True greatness reveals itself in areas of meekness, mercy, compassion and forgiveness. The world considers a meek man to be a weak man. But God considers the meek to be strong. They shall inherit the earth; because in their meekness and weakness, their confidence is not in themselves but in Another. The weak must assume an attitude of defensiveness; but the strong are prepared to let the Truth defend itself. So when the weak assume positions of power and authority, as is often the case, they must use that power and authority to bolster their own inadequacy. The meek are strong, because they are prepared to commit their cause into the hands of God who judgeth righteously.

As I ministered about the hyssop I could not help but think of our own little fellowship. It seems so fragile. What is it that keeps us gathering together week after week? Just a handful of us... but we will travel 30, 50, 70 or a 100 miles a week just to gather with a handful of people in someone's home. But when you come to know God's ways a little, what does it matter whether there be 20 or 30 people, or 1,000? God can use 20 as well as 2,000... 1 as well as 10,000. It doesn't really matter, as long as we are faithful; and as long as God is directing us in this way. But how strange this may sound to those who have not known God's ways?

How long will we continue to gather in this manner? We certainly do not know; for we have no plans to fulfill of our own. And we are reminded that the precious "hyssop" having served its purpose was thrown away! Precious as it is in the eyes of the Lord, it was made for sacrifice. And every sacrifice that delights the heart of God requires it. God has therefore put it within the reach of all. It grows there at our feet, lightly esteemed by most... but prepared of the Lord for sacrifice... a certain kind of sacrifice: the sacrifice of a broken spirit and a contrite heart. It is not something beyond our reach. The elders of Israel had no problem finding it... apparently it was right outside their doors, and when the blood had to be sprinkled on the doorposts, the hyssop was readily obtained. When the last Passover Lamb was offered, hyssop was there too, and readily obtainable. When Jesus cried "I thirst," a soldier bunched some hyssop together and lifted it to Jesus' mouth with a sponge full of sour wine. He must use hyssop to fulfill the Scriptures, and God had provided it even on Mount Calvary! Then it was discarded... it had served its purpose.

But what waste? And to what purpose is this waste?

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 16:24, 25).

[color=000099]Let us consider this when we go about our lives, Day by Day….for our lives ought to be a living sacrifice[/color]

Solomon, a great and Wise man, was impressed to write about the weak, insignificant "hyssop." Great men are always small enough to take note of little things. They are concerned about the weak. Jesus stood still at the cry of a blind beggar. True greatness reveals itself in areas of meekness, mercy, compassion and forgiveness. The world considers a meek man to be a weak man. But God considers the meek to be strong. They shall inherit the earth; because in their meekness and weakness, their confidence is not in themselves but in Another. The weak must assume an attitude of defensiveness; but the strong are prepared to let the Truth defend itself. So when the weak assume positions of power and authority, as is often the case, they must use that power and authority to bolster their own inadequacy. The meek are strong, because they are prepared to commit their cause into the hands of God who judgeth righteously.

Try this website. It is totally amazing! You will never run out of good Bible teaching material here - covering content for new believers to Seminary level training. .. and quality lecturers!

And it's all free! You can even set up your own class in this cyberschool.

[url=http://www.biblicaltraining.org/index.php]Biblical Training [/url]

Diane

"OR" stay and pray and be a part of the change that God might be about to do at your Church. Why in the world can't we stand in faith that God may want to make a change right were we are? But if we all just pack up and run what every time "because the next Church will have issues also" what kind of warriors do that? Apparently the ones that have no calling to Pray for a change right were they are and the courage and faith be obedient to what God is telling them to do and not man, JMO.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

If a church has gone off the tracks, and not interested in turning around, we are commanded to seperate.

Krispy

How long do we give them to become interested is that in the Bible? Or do we wait until God calls us out or man? Personally I will go with God calling me out. :-)

Dear yulandop,

I have been to such a church for 10 years. I was in it and part of it - until God sent me through a time of suffering. There I began to see my error. Sermons from SI helped me to see my error and I came to my senses. I discovered the cross, dying to self and His grace in suffering. I believe I was somehow a child of God before, but like all little children could not see beyond my own needs and benefits. Babies only get fed and cuddled, but sons get disciplined as well. I understood I had to become a son of God.

Our past church went through a leadership crisis, but actually the leadership crisis surfaced because there was no real foundation in Christ in my opinion.

God met me in wonderful ways. When I shared these experiences with other people, they seemed to not understand what I was talking about, even close aquaintances, execpt 3 or 4. I stayed on for about a year, leaving the meetings frustrated, hungry and angry.

I am now in a fellowship where the teaching is much more God centred and the leaders care for the sheep. I found soul mates which who share the same walk with Christ. We can talk about Jesus for hours without getting tired or coming to an end.

Unless you are clearly led by God, settling there can be dangerous for you, too. Perhaps you can ask God if he can show you some likeminded people inside the fellowship, otherwise...leave.

Rev 18
1After this I saw(A) another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and(B) the earth was made bright with his glory. 2And he called out with a mighty voice,

(C) "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become(D) a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt(E) for every unclean spirit,
a haunt(F) for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
3For all nations have drunk[a]
(G) the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and(H) the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
and(I) the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."

4Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

(J) "Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues; 5for(K) her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and(L) God has remembered her iniquities.
6(M) Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
and repay her(N) double for her deeds;
mix a double portion for her(O) in the cup she mixed.
7(P) As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
(Q) 'I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.'
8For this reason her plagues will come(R) in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and(S) she will be burned up with fire;
for(T) mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."

9And(U) the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her,(V) will weep and wail over her(W) when they see the smoke of her burning. 10(X) They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,

"Alas! Alas!(Y) You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon!
For(Z) in a single hour your judgment has come."

11And(AA) the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.[b]
14"The fruit for which your soul longed
has gone from you,
and all your delicacies and your splendors
are lost to you,
never to be found again!"

15(AB) The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her,(AC) will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,
16"Alas, alas, for the great city
(AD) that was clothed in fine linen,

in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,

with jewels, and with pearls!
17For(AE) in a single hour all this wealth(AF) has been laid waste."

And(AG) all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18and(AH) cried out(AI) as they saw the smoke of her burning,

(AJ) "What city was like the great city?"

19And they threw(AK) dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,

"Alas, alas, for the great city
(AL) where all who had ships at sea
grew rich by her wealth!
For(AM) in a single hour she has been laid waste. 20(AN) Rejoice over her, O heaven,
and you saints and(AO) apostles and prophets,
for(AP) God has given judgment for you against her!"

21Then(AQ) a mighty angel(AR) took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

"So will Babylon(AS) the great city be thrown down with violence,
and will be found no more;
22and(AT) the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters,
will be heard in you no more,
and a craftsman of any craft
will be found in you no more,
and(AU) the sound of the mill
will be heard in you no more,
23and the light of a lamp
will shine in you no more,
and(AV) the voice of bridegroom and bride
will be heard in you no more,
for(AW) your merchants were the great ones of the earth,
and all nations were deceived(AX) by your sorcery.
24And(AY) in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of(AZ) all who have been slain on earth."

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

narrowpath

My question here is, once a small home bible study has developed, how are elders appointed? I have not found sufficient evidence in scripture to support self-appointing or congregational appointing of elders. Rather I see elders appointed by elders. I realize this opens the proverbial can called "apostolic succession", but I cannot avoid the verses which indicate elders anoint other elders.

???

I'm very interested in knowing your thoughts. I have been considering for sometime moving to a rural area with the family of one of my best friends who is a firm and godly man. We don't know where we would fellowship and have thought about joining as families into a fellowship, open to others of like mind. We have both been through bible college but have never received some ordination. It seems un-scriptural to have permanently have no elders, but neither does it seem appropriate to appoint one of ourselves.

theopenlife wrote:
My question here is, once a small home bible study has developed, how are elders appointed? I have not found sufficient evidence in scripture to support self-appointing or congregational appointing of elders. Rather I see elders appointed by elders. I realize this opens the proverbial can called "apostolic succession", but I cannot avoid the verses which indicate elders anoint other elders.

???

I'm very interested in knowing your thoughts. I have been considering for sometime moving to a rural area with the family of one of my best friends who is a firm and godly man. We don't know where we would fellowship and have thought about joining as families into a fellowship, open to others of like mind. We have both been through bible college but have never received some ordination. It seems un-scriptural to have permanently have no elders, but neither does it seem appropriate to appoint one of ourselves.

[u][b]1 Timothy 3:1-13(NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Qualifications of Overseers[/b]

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

[b]Qualifications of Deacons[/b]

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[u][b]Titus 1:4-6 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Qualified Elders[/b]

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Personally I will go with God calling me out.

He already did... in scripture.

Krispy

Scripture is Truth only ever seen this scripture?

"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."--(John 4:23-24)

Those who worship the Father must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!!!

Spirit and truth, so what is this spirit and truth?

Our spirit is the center of our being. It is where our thoughts, beliefs, desires and our hopes reside. And the Spirit of God is the one who knows the thoughts of God. We must have a clear conscience and a pure heart in order to worship God properly in our spirits. We are told to be clear minded and self-controlled so you can pray (commune with God). The same is true of worship, we must enter his sanctuary being dead to ourselves and alive through Jesus Christ.

But it don't matter anyway I am hanging in there this is what "God" through the spirit has told me to do for now, I have never went wrong letting God lead me in Spirit. One of these days when either we have another Pastor "or" ours changes his ways and this is what I am Praying and believing for, I will be glad to sit down and watch you eat your crow. :-P

Maybe I should just do a home church with a small group of people. It seems that we have evolved as christians into the thinking that the church has to be an external building with a leader at a designated place when in reality we are the church. It would be awesome if there was a church with believers teaching and preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but as we all can see they are few and far in between. I agree that you will become a product of your environment if you settle for going to a compromising church. I went to dinner with a couple from the church that I mentioned earlier, and they were asking me what I was looking for in a church. The woman stated that she was on the committe and that they could make changes to in a sense place what i was looking for within this particular church. When I told her i was looking for God, not church music, or gimmicks to get people to come to church, but that I was looking for an environment where the word convicts me of potential sin in my life, challenges me to live holy after God, and encourages me to minister to the poor. She said well maybe you could start that in our church. my response was one drop of water is not going to change a whole glass of coke into water. I also mentioned that a church is going to be a product of the pastor of that church, change coming from the bottom to the head would equal rebellion, and i'm not going to be a part of that. So i'm going to try and find a small group of believers that may have home church/bible study, etc. The challenging part is that my wife does not see things as I do.

yulandop wrote:
I agree that you will become a product of your environment if you settle for going to a compromising church. I was looking for an environment where the word convicts me of potential sin in my life. challenges me to live holy after God, and encourages me to minister to the poor.

Let me try and help you some here it's seems like you might be a little confused.
I have been in that environment your talking about for a while and folks that don't know why God has me there might think I am a product of that environment, "but" I am not a product of that environment, "unless" I just stand by and do nothing I personally walk around and Pray and I also reach out to the congregation one on one as the Holy Spirit leads me, in Prayer and Truth
and have gathered quite a flock myself.

You said:
I was looking for an environment where the word convicts me of potential sin in my life.

Brother or Sister the only one that better be doing this is the Holy Spirit, you sure don't want man to convict you of potential sin in your life, you think you bummed out now O Lord you will be ready to go ahead and dig that 6' hole.

You also said:
challenges me to live holy after God, and encourages me to minister to the poor.

Why do you need any certain Building to help you do this? I have been doing this since 1995, have you been saved? if so, you personally have all the power "inside" you to accomplish all that is troubling you, my advise is quit looking to man and listening to man and start listening to that small voice deep within, I challenge you to go a few months and "only" listen to the Holy Spirit within for direction and I guarantee you that you will find out things you never knew and directions you never imagined, I know Personally that you cannot go wrong letting the spirit lead you, been there done that bought the shirt,

Am I saying rule out man period no! but God will lead you to good sincere, "Spirit" lead folks for conformation sometimes. We all need to get back to God and what is God? God is Spirit and when we do as he has done in my life taken me to levels and places I never even imagined I could go, and took my cut and run attitude completely away and put me right into the fire, and like Daniel I don't even smell any smoke on me, why because when God leads you the smoke and mirrors will be gone.

I look at it this way I am not there for the message I am there as a message.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

it's like a math figure. Jesus is the head of the body. Then there are the members of the body. Eph. 1:22 Jesus the head. The elders are there as a gift to serve the body. Eph. 4:11 the calling of the 5-fold is to bring the body into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. and to bring them into perfection.4:12 of Eph. What can we do? If we have a body of believers, if not we pray for them to come in. Then we worship and fellowship the word we pray and do all things decently and in order.1 Cor. 14:40. and meanwhile we pray in the Spirit for God to raise up a qualified 5-fold. We must never put a if to the promises of God-- by faith we believe that where 2 or more are gathered in Jesus name and pray, they shall receive from the heavenly father. my quote Matt. 18:19. praise God now you already have others praying with you. add I am one who has uprooted many places and right now ministering praise in nursing homes and places where people are shut in, the Holy Spirit feeds me daily. check out the website Dennis Schmidt bible papers He is one minister who puts out a serious topical subject bible study that will curl your hair. and those hairs are all numbered ha ha. keep trusting and always do good for your neighbor. God bless, halleluia

I have found this question to be essential for fellowship: Are there genuinely saved individuals wherever you are congregating? Are these people who really have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them? If so, these brothers and sisters in the Lord, no matter how immature they might be, are individuals we should fellowship with, serve, and serve with. In many situations, "the pastor" might be just as carnally immature despite his title, and thus use carnal methods to run the church. But, if Christ dwells in him, should we not love him just the same? Is not the source of our unity the love we are supposed to have for one another in the Holy Spirit?

What did Paul do with the church in Corinth, which was of clicks, full of adultery, had members participating in pagan rites, had drunkards (at church no less!), had wild out-of-control church services, and to top it off, had a faction of the church that was denying a literally resurrected Jesus? Well, what did Paul do? Did he run down the street and start another church? Did he refuse to associate with them anymore? Far from it. He admonished them, taught them, and loved them. He built them up in the Lord and exhorted them in sound doctrine, and encouraged them to follow the apostolic pattern... namely, him!

Oh... they fought, kicked, screamed, and were ready to run Paul off... but eventually, changed their ways. He simply kept reminding them who they were in Christ, and that they should start thinking and acting like the Jesus living inside them. It was a long battle, and not without a lot of grief. But it was a battle he fought and eventually won.

However, if the people you meet with are not in anyway saved, then my suggestion to you would be what the Lord has taught me, try to get people saved and form them into a church. You don't have to be a pastor or even setup a pastor. Just meet, fellowship, and share your life in Christ together. If there is no genuine expression of Christ around you, and no church, then in God's name start one! Such is your obligation as an ambassador of Jesus Christ.