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Any pastors out there who can answer this question?

C
chadster Feb 28, 2008

Dear Pastor Friends at Sermon Index,

I don’t know if this topic has been broached on this forum, but I would like to seek your counsel concerning an issue that our church elders are facing at this time with regard to church discipline.

One of our associate pastors has been living a double life and their sin has been found out. The senior pastor feels that because this associate pastor has teenage children, he doesn’t want to bring hurt or harm to them, so he is obviously removing this pastor from his position; but just telling the church that he is stepping down for “personal reasons”. (Of course, the senior pastor is going on the assumption that this pastor is repentant and is going to go away for counseling and inner healing.)

My concern is where is the balance between “compassion” and dealing in truth? I'm having difficulty with these two truths in tension. I know that the heart of the Pastor is not to deceive but to cover and to show mercy and compassion....and in no way is the sin being condoned or justified, because the pastor was removed from his position. While I know we must all consider ourselves and recognize that but by the grace of God, there go I; and the need for love to cover a multitude of sin; but is this truly the Biblical way of dealing with this issue? I know that Paul says that if an elder sins, he is to be rebuked before all (elders) so that others may fear. Is that only if the elder is not repentant? If he does repent, should he still be rebuked before all?

The Senior Pastor spoke to the leadership team of the church and has communicated that this pastor has been removed in order to give himself space and time to deal with some personal issues. There are only 2 of us who know that these personal issues are “sin” issues. (but no doubt, others may assume that "personal" issues may mean "sin" issues.) My concern is that what now is "secret" and no one but the senior pastor knows the ugly details of this sin; if it is found out by others in the church; are they going to feel that the leadership was deceptive?

Thanks for any insights or wisdom you may have.

sermonindex Feb 28, 2008

I see no reason why this man should be drawn and quartered in front of the entire congregation. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that that be necessary except in the case when the offender refuses to repent, which apparently this man is repentent.

The reason for going to the congregation with the offenders sins is to hopefully convince the offender of his sin, and lead him to repentence.

If this associate pastor realizes his sin, and is taking action to get his life right... then the only purpose for bringing it to the congregation would be to further punish and embarrass him. And thats not how God operates.

My concern is that what now is "secret" and no one but the senior pastor knows the ugly details of this sin; if it is found out by others in the church; are they going to feel that the leadership was deceptive?

It's not being deceptive. Does your pastor print in the church bulletin all the lurid details of the marriage counseling he does during the week? Or if someone is struggling with sin in their life and confides in your pastor or leadership, does the leadership "team" have a special meeting to discuss it with the entire church?

Obviously no. Nor should the details of this case be discussed publicly. It's been dealt with, and any one in your congregation that is talking about this man behind his back needs to also be dealt with by your leadership. Anyone in your church who is seeking information about all of this is doing so with impure motives.

I think the Senior pastor is doing the right thing.

Proverbs 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.

Krispy

C
chadster Feb 28, 2008

Krispy,

Thanks for your response which I’m in agreement with for the most part. Lest I be misunderstood, I am not advocating that the senior pastor bring this man to the church body and make a public spectacle of him or bring humiliation and shame. I’m just having problems that the leadership of the church is not being told what really is going on. This kind of conversation is something that is handled behind closed doors and hopefully because these individuals are in leadership, they understand the importance of confidentiality and praying for an erring brother, and not spreading gossip.

Also, is there a difference between how we deal with ‘the average” church person and a person in a leadership position in the church? I remember a message that Art Katz preached on “Phineas-Priest of Obedience”…and Art intimated that because Phineas was jealous for the holiness of God, he did what Moses should have done in bringing judgment on the sin. The interesting issue in this case in point is that this person would NOT have repented had they not been found out…which begs the question: are they truly repentant or just remorseful??

B
broclint Feb 28, 2008

I believe Krispy gave excellent advice.

The fact that he has been removed from leadership is proof that sin is not condoned, but to spread his guilt even among all those "in leadership", what purpose would it serve? Just a quicker way to spread the word all through the church?

God is the one who knows the man's heart and motives and guilt and we can rest assured that His dealing with him will be perfect: whether it is repentance or remorse. If he is a man of God and his sin becomes widely known as Brother Ron said at the revival conference regarding David, until his repentance becomes as notorious as his sin, he will no doubt be disqualified from future leadership, and to be removed from leadership, caught or confessing, is a severe punishment in and of itself if he was called of God to lead.

The senior pastor has demonstrated that he is not tolerating sin, but also expressing the compassion that we ALL need.

Speaking of a higher standard than "the average" Christian... the removal from office is already more punishment than the average, because the average Joe sins, confesses to the pastor and is sitting on the pew the next week with no one knowing unless he feels compelled to confess to the church. If all the sins confessed by "average member" or found out about average member were told even to the rest of leadership, the suspicions would be enough to destroy all fellowship. Thank God for faithful "senior pastors" that take those things to God in prayer and no where else.

The instructions of Paul in dealing with a member of the chruch at Corinth comes to mind... there is a balance between causing "overmuch sorrow" and the man's soul and those of his family being destroyed.

It is sad indeed when leaders fall, but the path to forgiveness (and fellowship) is the same for all:"if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

Clint

L
LoveHim Feb 29, 2008

brother chadster,

i am no pastor, but may i share a story about a situation like this. the youth minister in the church that i grew up in was the youth pastor for about 9 years. he went to bible college and then was the youth pastor at the church. well it came out that this pastor has been dealing with "sexual sin" for over 9+ years and so he and the senior pastor talked to the congregation. the youth pastor apologized to the congregation, talked about his sin and repentance and the steps of dealing with the sin in his life.

but instead of it being a situation where they just dismiss a pastor and leave it to everyone's imagination about what happened, you could feel the Spirit lead the situation. sin was talked preached about and repentance followed from certain believers that had been dealing with the same sin.

i can honestly say, it was one of the best handled situations involving a pastor being relieved of their duties that i have ever seen at any church i have been at. (and i've seen quite a few of them get dismissed).

i'm not saying that every situation like that has to be like this one was, i can only tell you what i just seen 4 months ago and it was handled great. i hope that the pastor will do what he believes the Lord is directing him to do and that there will be honesty.

H
holiness Feb 29, 2008

Greetings,
If I was a member of your congregation, and found out later what had happened, I would feel like things had been covered up, and swept under the rug. The key to me is the fact that he was caught. In my experience with these situations, I have found out that most folk that are caught are simply sorry and have not truly repented. Godly sorrow worketh repentance, not getting busted. I feel there is a lack of exposing sin in the church. This brought the fear of God in the book of Acts and in the early church. This fear of God is what we lack today. I don't have a answer to your question, but i do know how I would feel if I found out down the road. May our Lord give you Godly wisdom that comes from above.

sermonindex Mar 5, 2008


Hi chadster,

I dearly wanted to answer your question but don't qualify as a pastor. However, I do qualify as one whose eldership gave a situation the same kind of advice Krispy and Clint have given, in the belief they are somehow protecting the flock from a fate they would not survive.

Okay... Clint and Krispy, you know I respect you both very much. My comments are in no way an attack on either of you personally. I recognise the points you are making and why they seem reasonable, but I would like to put forward some of the [i]cons[/i] of assuming no other considerations outweigh your suggestions.

It may even be slightly misguided to try to protect the sinner. From what? Public opinion? Is this a basic requirement of Christianity? For sin?


What is interesting about such fears (imo), is that they betray a general lack of trust of the spiritual maturity of flock-members. Even church leadership can't be trusted with something confidential!

But... if so... is the lack of concealment in scripture, of 'sins of the flesh' and other sins, truly because these are [i]impossible[/i] to keep quiet in real life, or, so specifically related to idolatry?

In a different thread recently, I pointed out that going to church [i]in itself[/i] should be a public testimony that every individual understands the terms on which they are accepted by God [i]at all[/i]. Iow, it should not be a surprise to anyone, that occasionally a brother or sister falls into some serious sin; not to excuse such a situation, but rather, that all sin is serious and [u]must[/u] be abandoned in favour of righteousness in Christ.

until his repentance becomes as notorious as his sin
Surely, unless his sin is known, his repentance can never become as notorious as it?


Personally, I hated my sin not being made completely public, despite whatever would have become of me because of it. It felt far worse at the time - like I [i]was[/i] keeping something secret - than getting it out, over and done with, and being able to look people in the eye knowing there was nothing between me and them. I'd have rather they knew, and chose to have nothing to do with me (if they preferred), than to carry on with the secrecy which already surrounded what had happened.

The person with the reputation as 'Rahab the harlot', 'Mary out of whom went seven devils', or 'the woman at the well', has to live with that label, but, [i]knowing[/i] these sins were laid on Jesus - whether anyone else has forgiven them or not.

Study to show yourself approved.... whose praise is of God, not of men.

Matthew 21:14
[b]And the blind and the lame came to him[/b] [u]in the temple[/u];
[u][b]and He healed them[/b][/u].


It is clear from very many prophecies that some credibly spiritual people will find themselves outside the door without enough oil, on a certain day. Should we be surprised?

Another reason for exposing sin, is its continuance is then much harder to conceal. I've often wondered how people in Israel seemed to know everything about each other. But, they were camped in just the next tent, is one reason, and this in itself is (ideally), a deterrent.


'That which makes manifest, is light.'

1 John 1:7

There is another matter here, which may or may not be relevant, which is that what goes on at ranks below top leadership, has often been silently sanctioned by the wrong behaviour (not necessarily in the same area of misconduct, but... a lack of integrity), of the leadership itself. To say that not all the leaders 'know', might be a way of equivocating around the possibility that no-one needed to tell them, because it wasn't a secret at that level.

I learned these things the hard way, and there are always innocent victims, but the Church in general has not been good at offering healing to those caught in the crossfire. It would rather pretend that no-one can hear the shooting.


Fundamentally, the betrayal of trust by a church leader - regardless of their specific sin - is a very serious blow to some people's faith. I would moot that everyone's faith needs to be in God rather than man, and the loss of trust of members by not being open, is worse than the loss of trust some may experience when the facts are honourably presented without rancour.

Lastly, it is far easier for a person to change if they want to, if they are not fighting a secret war. This is one of the truths about the situation of Paul the apostle: that it was no secret what he had done to the church, and he had everything to prove to those who might wish to distrust him. But he was so grateful to God for his salvation, that nothing was too much trouble, in [i]His[/i] service.


If I've rambled too far... please put me right.

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