Jesus and his teaching accentuate the end of all killing!!!!

Hi I got a few questions that I wish to have answered:-?.

i. Is Jesus for war against nations?
ii. Is Jesus for defendning your country and in that you have to kill people?
iii. Is Jesus for retaliation against earthly enemies?

a. I find no indications in NT that Jesus is for either the national state or anything like that. His new and regenerated people seems to be constituted of all races and of all ethnical groups i.e. one people of many in Him.

b. I found no indications in NT that a born-again and a follower of Christ should "enlist in the army".

c. If all the people of the world is a potential christian - a brother and a sister; then we can under no circumstances as Christians kill (even if Mr Bush or other leaders says so because it has no new testamental passage to support such).

Well what is your opinion??? Personally and according to my inner voice I believe that God in light of Christ is against all killing period; - even in terms of capital punnishment because Satan is the author of death not God.

Therefore for me Jesus is the first pacifist and we as his followers are obligated to follow him in that manner as well.
Sincerely Magnus
:-D

Magnus,

Have you checked out the thread on "Let's Talk about Peace" on the "General Topics" forum? This thread deals with this issue. There is enough reading there to keep you busy for a long time.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Thanks ginnyrose! I did not know that. I will check it out.

Sincerely Magnus :-)

Here is the link:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15338&forum=35&281]We Need to Talk About Peace [/url]

Thanks for the link!

This is an urgent question for me - a burden.

Noone benefits from war.

Sincerely Magnus :-D

Reply to Mangan
Here is a link hot off the press.
I carried weapons in defense of the innocent for nearly twenty five years. I would not think twice today in killing to protect the innocent. Your biases are showing when you take positions in defense of mass murders that declared war on the civilians of America.

Why is America hated in the world? Our government knows but is unwilling to offend other western governments by calling them welfare dependants who depended on us for protection for all the last century. Granted we received strategic benefit. Now that the threat of the Soviet Union has passed for the moment we are despised and belittled in our efforts to defend our selves and others by those that take a holier than tho attitude while their young people shirk their duty and scoff at our young men and women sacrifice. Europe has thrown out the basic laws that underpins civilization that say if you harm one of us then you have harmed us all. The strong will defend the weak and the helpless and our God judge between us.

Eddie

Hi Magnus...

Noone benefits from war.

The Jews who were rescued from concentration camps might argue that they benefited from the outcome of World War II. Former slaves might argue that they benefited from the outcome of the Civil War. Americans might argue that they benefited from the outcome of the Revolutionary War. South Koreans might argue that they benefited from the Korean War. Israelis might argue that they benefited from the Six Day War. Kuwaitis might argue that they benefited from the first War in Iraq.

Who benefited from a [i]lack of participation[/i] in war? The North Vietnamese communists who quickly conquered South Vietnam following the pull out of US troops. The Germans during both WW1 and WW2 before US participation. The Soviet Empire before the US voiced opposition to Soviet communist aggression. Al Quaeda enjoyed growth during the 1990s when little was done to stop the growth of their terrorist organization.

The question is not whether or not war can produce benefits. Obviously, the world that we live in -- including the preservation of freedoms -- has been shaped by war. The fact that we can enjoy freedom of the press and write these posts is possibly due to the victory of the West over forced communist aggression from the Cold War. There are believers in North Korea who are still killed for their faith. I can't help but wonder if the outcome would have been different if MacArthur had been allowed to win in Korea.

:-(

*EDIT:

Was Jesus ever in favor of war? Did the Lord [u]ever[/u] favor war? If we look through the Old Testament, did God ever instruct a nation to go to war?

First, if we are to answer the question if Jesus is against all killing, we must go to the scriptures.

All Governments are in Authroity according to Gods Will: Romans 13:1-7 and have the power to protect themselves THROUGH KILLING if needs be!
Romans 13:3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not BEAR THE SWORD FOR NOTHING. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. So I see no prohibition of any Christian joining the army, or killing enemies when ordered to by GOD-ordained authority. It is not a clear command so do not twist scripture by saying Christians can't and shouldn't join the Army, show me the scripture that says it.

I also remember several Scriptures from the Old Testament.
"Those who live by the sword shall die by the Sword," and "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed."

So God-ordained Governments as an agent of wrath have the right and duty to protect its citizens, through war if need be, and even from other citizens. I also remember Israel being ordered to kill all the inhabitants of the Land, leaving none alive! Men, Women, and Children! God Commanded it! They did not have a choice, and all men age 20 and up were in the Army regardless, that is the purpose of numbering the people - the numbers are men who could go to war!

Also Death was not from Satan, but a punishment from GOD for Sin Romans 6:23"For the Wages of SIN is Death,..." We all think that Everything evil comes from Satan, it doesn't, we are fallen, evil people unless acted upon by grace, even Christ called us evil "If you being evil know how to give good gifts..." So even death itself is ordained by God!

The Commandment is NOT "Thou shalt not kill", but "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER." A big difference. Cities of refuge were set up in the Old Testament exactly for the purpose that you may accidently kill someone. Murder is an act in anger (anger in the heart also being murder), whereas A child may run out into the street and I can not stop the car in time not to hit and accidently kill them. I didn't plan on it, but it happened, it may or may not have been my fault.

Be careful not to twist the words of Christ, especially since THE WHOLE BIBLE is the WORD OF GOD.

In conclusion:
We as Christians are called to Love our neighbors and our enemies. I am called to love my Wife as Christ loved the Church - even laying down my life. This means that if someone is in my house doing harm to my wife, I must do anything and everything to protect her, even kill an intruder if I can do no else, even if it mean I die in the process. Governemnts are authorities given by God to protect its citizens. If the US in WWII would have just let the japanese invade and take over the country "because we don't believe in war" we would be a Japanese nation, or even a muslim country, or california would belong to mexico.

Murder is what God hates. Killing is sometimes necessary and unavoidable, does that mean Jesus hates ALL killing? I will not know until I see Him in glory!

for now let's just go with what He has said and commanded for us, and not attribute anything to Him that contradicts scripture, or is not written!

SIDEBAR: This post is not intended to demean anyone perosnally, but it is intended to edify through the truth by destroying Specualtion. So many today worship a God of their own making. "My God could never do that" and yet if you read scripture plainly and in context God can and will do anything He wants and wills to do. Even if it offends our humanism. Stop claiming the Bible to be the infallible Word of God, and Believe it is The Word of God! To God Be All The Glory!

If it is true that it is God's will for Christians to fight in wars. Then all Christians should sign up for the military immediately.

It Jesus Christ expected those saved by the washing of His blood to participate in war, He would have made it very clear for them to do so.

Instead, He made it very clear that they are not
to.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Who's kingdom do you belong to and who is your king?

If you wish to follow the Old Testament, then live under all of it.

Read history, what kingdom in this world has ever truly benifited from war?

Rev. 18:1-8
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. [2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. [4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. [6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. [7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. [8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And it will be utterly destroyed by the Lord.

do we see Jesus carry a sword? does he ever kill anyone? does he ever fight?

if we follow him, if we are his disciples...shouldent we be like him?

Jesus said if his kingdom was of this world they would fight....

so if you fight for earthly things, it shows what kingdom you belong to.

Wow! This thread is moving by itself even though this topic has been delt with elsewhere and pretty much all sides covered as well, concerning this hot issue.

Even so. A few words should however be uttered in defense of what I believe to be the will of our Lord and God: Jesus Christ.

i. I consider myself to be a Christian in that I take careful heed to all that my Master has taught me.
*He is the way: We shall walk in the same manner and conduct as he did.
*He is the truth: That means that his words has eternal value especially for every Christian and that we should read all other scriptures in the light of the Eternal Truth: Jesus himself.
*He is the life: My life shall reflect his life as he lived it in order for me to finally gain the eternal life (after I by His grace have kept the faith and finnished the course).

So when my Master teach me to kill my enemy; no wait! To love my enemy - well then killing is out of the question.
So when my master tells me to defend the national state with weapon or to prevent an attack by making a preventive war against a presumed enemy (such as Iraq or maybe soon Iran or Putins Russia)well then I see Jesus in my dreams with a machine-gun or riding on a fighter. No wait! I see Jesus asking me: Who is my neighbour and that I should love my neighbour as my self; killing is out of the question.

ii. Jesus has never and will not ever give us the imperative to kill not even in defence. After the incarnation and the teachings of Christ and the life of Christ in which he claims that he has fulfilled the Law, -we are to live by His Law (which is best explained in the Sermon on the Mount) and rather suffer evil than to do evil; rather take the pain then to pay it back in full.

iii. Think about this: How would all the nations of the world react if a Country of considerable size and might just decided not to retaliate any evil done to it??? Confused or what?

iv. "We have to ask ourselves the worn out phrase: What would Jesus do?". "What would Jesus do" in our place. We have a long way to go before we understand what it is to do our Masters will.

v. Is it not enough that God has established an eternal Hell for the ungodly. That makes it urgent for us to bring out the gospel to the nations - Jesus own gospel; not by sword but by the power of the Holy Spirit. If every man is a pontential Christian then we cannot go about killing.

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" Jn 1:17.

Sincerely Magnus :-D

Hi hmmhmm...

To which "kingdom" did the Apostle Paul belong? Was he simply a Christian with no ties to an earthly citizenship? Yet Paul invoked his own earthly citizenship to prevent his flogging in Acts 22:22-29. Would it be proper to suggest that Paul had a dual citizenship?

Of course, our great citizenship is in Heaven. But we still have a responsibility here on Earth as well. Jesus instructed us to "[i]Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's[/i]" (Matthew 22:21). This could come through taxes (as Jesus instructed), through taking part in a census (as Joseph and Mary did) or through invoking a citizenship and earthly law in order to take the Gospel to rulers.

I've always found it interesting that we never read of Peter instructing Cornelius (the Roman Centurian) to abandon his post (Acts 10). He was a "devout" man who "feared God" who also knew "devout" soldiers. In fact, the Lord spoke to him through a vision saying, "[i]Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God[/i]" (Acts 10:4). This soldier, onto whom the Holy Spirit fell, was a citizen of Rome. We have no record of Peter telling Cornelius (or any other soldier) to abandon their position -- a position that some suggest could bring them into conflict with the faith.

Is it possible to maintain a citizenship in Heaven while serving God through your citizenship on Earth?

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

Is it possible to maintain a citizenship in Heaven while serving God through your citizenship on Earth?

:-)

with God everything is possible, I know there are accounts in scripture where the Lord also speaks to soldiers and what you mentioned. And he does not say you must do this and that. I guess it is possible.

But i may should have explained some more, but i think if we follow Christ. Should we pick up a gun and start shooting let say communists? from my very limited understanding, its not them who is the enemy. so why if we are truly a follower of Christ should we fight?

Maybe i am just now being impacted by my recent reading of the 1500 anabaptists.... :-(

anyway, I just have some problem with a man with an ak 47 shooting people saying he serves the Lord. Swedish or who ever. It just seem for me not to go well together. But as i said, i have very little knowledge in this subject and have not studied it in depth.... but its just dont sit right with me.

Romans 13:1-7 must be read according to its proper context.

Paul is not saying anywhere that a Christian shall carry a sword. No, not a Christian, but the Roman soldier should!

Guys, You have to understand that the Christian movement in the first century formated a subculture. They had only one goal: preach the gospel, and wait for the Lords return when He shall bring about a new heaven and a new earth. The first Christians thought of themselves
as belonging to a different Kingdom (which Jesus had explained to the twelve) - much different than any former kingdom include the old Israel. The Kingdom of Jesus is not the kingdom of the earthly David.

Further more: in Rom 13. Paul is just stating the obvious fact that his followers should respect authority because God has established it (and acts through it in a strange way - just as he uses anything) for the sake of spreading the gospel (by means of the augustian peace). This authority that Paul is refering to is not Christian, it is authority of the Roman emperor Nero and his local authorities.

In conclusion: Let the heathen (unaware of its divine appointment or imperative) carry out Gods punitive will in the society. In meantime let us who consider us to be followers of Christ show the world the splendour of the Lord Jesus Christ through the message of peace and love; and let us call all people to repentance, all sinners to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thereby receive eternal life through him.

In christ all men are brothers and sisters.

Sincerely Magnus ;-)

HE_Reigns, Thanks! According to my swedish-english lexicon (now I realize that it isnt the best one :-P). Thanks for the correction.

I think in my native language and writes in english (which could lead to a lot of grammatical and syntactical errors - just as you discovered. It would be easier for me if you guys understood swedish).

What I meant was:
"We have to ask ourselves the worn out phrase: What would Jesus do".

Sincerely Magnus

I agree with the context, but it must also be taken into today. I do not live in the Roman Empire, and I cannot submit to it. Again, I do not see that I cannot become president, or a senetor, or an IRS agent, or mayor, or a King according to the Scriptures. The Bible does not forbid me to carry out such a duty; therefore, It is not wrong, prohibited, or a sin to be in the army, in the senate, or in any place in office. Also to resign myself into thinking that no Christian should ever be in such a position would lead to the fact that all governments are corrupt because they are run by heathens. So yes I believe in context, but I also believe in living application for today because if the Bible is not applicable for today - throw it away we don't need it.

Second Paul is writing after Christ's death and resurrection, and in so doing is setting an ongoing standard until Christ's return whether the government be Roman, American, Canadian or other. I live in the New Covenant, I also live in the world for the time.

The position you put forward would also require the need for the eradication of local police forces as well. in which case, all lawlessness would prevail. The police are sometimes required to kill people.

Next, In Christ all men are brothers and sisters was unclear to me . "All men who are IN CHRIST are brothers" is the true meaning to that statement. If I am outside of Christ I am not a brother, I am an enemy and hater of God. (Romans 8, 1 corithians 3) 2nd Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be unequally yoked with non-believers" So how can someone I am to have no close fellowship with, be my brother? The BOMFOG (Brotherhood of Man, Fatherhood of God) heresy is a lie taught by Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons (Romans 8:14) "For all who are led by the Spirit are sons of God" Is that what you mean?

Jesus is loving and merciful, but he is also wrath and vengeance, and when He returns He will not use the heathen as weapons of wrath, rather His angels, and His elect, and even himself.

Jesus (God) hates as well as loves - preach the whole truth. "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" (Romans 9)
Psalm 5:4-5 "You HATE all evildoers."
So much for God hates the sin but loves the sinner, you cannot divorce the sin from the sinner. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

I take joy in the Love of Christ. I rest in the mercy of God and his grace through the sacrifice made in my place. I also take joy in "vengeance is mine, I shall repay" - says the Lord

To preach the love of Christ is only half the message. God is Holy, Holy, Holy, and God is Just. I am not trying to sound like I hate love and peace, but love and peace came at a cost because justice still had to be served.

The problem with this whole issue is the Sovereignty of God in all things. If God has numbered your days (psalm 139), If God has ordained all things that come to pass, can me joining the army, killing with orders, be against God's will if He ordained who and what I am to become? Is Gods will not good, acceptable, and perfect.

The facts of the matter is: joining the army and killing on orders is not a sin because God has not commanded that I should not do so. Sin is a violation of a command of God. Repent and believe is not a choice to be made (contrary to modern so-called christianity) Repent and Believe is a command from God and that is why it is a sin not to repent and believe.

So once again - print the scripture that prohibits me from joining the army, protecting my country, or that I cannot hold office because I am a Christian and I will not do so! Be careful not to put a law upon a man that is not a law as the pharisees did.

Lastly; If God did not take side with the Israelites, they would not have been guaranteed to win. God fights for His people. The sin of David at the end of His life was numbering the people. He numbered them to know how big his army was, instead of trusting in the Lord to fight his battles, this is why the Lord judged the people because of David's sin. Trusting in self, instead of God. God does take sides, the problem is not is he on our side or theirs, the question is are we on His. God has his side - then there is our sides.

Or What did Jesus Say, so I can do it! ;-)

I really dont like too well WWJD - sorry

I think my wife's family is from Sweden, but I don't think they speak swedish - sorry

GOD BLESS YOU - Praise Him

also by God's grace, when we enter heaven, I would speak with you in the same language!

I also love your greek signature - Yes He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life!

Ok. clarification: I meant potential brother and sister. We do not know who is going to respond correctly to the invitation; however the calling to eternal brother- sisterhood is to all men, period.

Regarding the contextual reading, I beg to differ. Why did not the first Christians in the first century care about the national state or tried to bring about freedom for Israel by particpation in the rebellion against Rome? Why didnt Paul or Jesus teach their disciples to make earthly careers or to make it big in this world? Look again closely, what your Master is teaching in his Word.

Secondly: I strongly believe that there are occupations (just as the first Christians believed, such as being a soldier)that Christians should not even consider. Being in the justice department or a president of a capitalistic country is not wrong in itself (just as long you are not violating the law of Jesus Christ as it is explained in Sermon on the Mount).

Thirdly: God is working through the authority to bring about justice - but this authority does not have to be Christian. God is still doing his will. So Christians do not have to participate in killing either it is in war or as a executioner in the service of the state.

Sincerely Magnus
;-)