The Old man and Flesh...Different?

Hi wfg,

After we have been crucified with Christ, we are a new creature. Unless we have been crucified with Christ (allowed Him to slay the old man in us), we cannot receive the Spirit, by which to walk (Gal 5:16), and by which [i][b]if[/i][/b] we walk, we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh.

Death is very final. If your old man [u]is dead[/u], then [u]you can[/u] walk in the Spirit.

The flesh may be doing what it had been trained to do by the habits of our sins prior to new birth, but the whole point of God giving us of His Spirit, is that we can now train the flesh to walk in His ways. We can resist its propensities to sin, and we can overcome through the Spirit.

Remember that 'our old man' is a spiritual entity which corrupted the original flesh of man. Once it is dead, what is there to corrupt it? This, again, is why the renewing of the mind assists us in resisting any wrong desires of the mind of the flesh, and of our old mind.

Certainly, 'the old man' and 'the flesh' are not synonymous, even though they worked together like hand and glove before new birth. (That is, the old man was the hand, and the flesh was the glove.)

Thanks for the reply... don't know how long I can hang in here but I'll share how I understand the way this all works.

To me, Heb 10:14 is a key verse, because it tells us that Christ's work has completed us in the Spirit. We now have to walk in a way of life which is unfamiliar to us, but, as we do, God backs us up with the authority and power, mental and physical strength, to live pleasing Him. If we don't begin from that platform - that it is [u]possible[/u] to please God because of what He has done for us as we rest in Christ, then it's unlikely we are going to put the power of our mind and body into following 'His steps' (1 Pet 2).

warriorforgod asked

Is this old mind the same as the old man?

What do you think?

I believe the old man inspires the lusts of the flesh and the lusts of the mind, but once we receive his death, we are, in principle (factually, not theoretically), free from the old man's inspiration (to inspire = to breathe in), if we will lay hold on this truth with our minds, and walk in this truth by faith - the faith of Him who raised Christ Jesus from the dead.

What do you think about when men say that sometimes we like to ressurrect our old man again?

Many people have a stop start kind of relationship with God - [i]as they perceive it[/i] - but He Himself has not changed, nor His word. The breakthrough from sin can be in either direction - that is, that the sinner makes the changes which will convince God he's given up sinning, or, he finds himself in need of God coming to him, to break into his personal dungeon, to release him. Either way, it's all the same truth being outworked in the experience of [i]the believer[/i], according to His (God's) invitation and promises.

Do you think this is a biblical statement.

Are these answers any help?

After we have been crucified with Christ, we are a new creature. Unless we have been crucified with Christ (allowed Him to slay the old man in us), we cannot receive the Spirit, by which to walk (Gal 5:16), and by which if we walk, we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh.

Dorcas, I might be mis-understanding you, but when we receive Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit comes with Him. This is our salvation. The Spirit of the Life of Christ is what sets us free from the law of Sin and death.

We are always carrying about in our body the dying of Christ that the Life of Christ is manifest.

I see these as absolute positives and not conditions.

Romans 8:10And if Christ be in you, the body [u][b]is[/b][/u] dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I don't see a condition of IF here, but fact.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: [u]but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/u]

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man [u][b]is[/b][/u] crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that [u][b]is[/b][/u] dead [u][b]is[/b][/u] freed from sin.

I think the problem may be not many understanding salvation to begin with. Unfortunately we have so many counterfeit gospels around.

I agree with what you are saying, but was wondering about the **if's**.

You stated:

Death is very final. If your old man is dead, then you can walk in the Spirit.

THEN you can walk in the spirit?

Paul tells us in Galatians that the Spirit wars against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit.

We have I believe two natures with in us, our old man, Adam 1, and our New Man. Adam 1 is who is crucified with Christ..His history ended at the cross, and we need to reckon it so.

But you seem to be saying that we come to sinless perfection of our old man dying in order to walk in the Spirit?

I'm forever indebted that the **Holy Spirit** living with in me is who brings conviction of sin, putting to death my old man, and self. Without Him, we can do nothing. This will be untill we are completely redeemed and have been Glorified together with Him.

Again Colossians 2 :6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[u][i][b]9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [/b][/i][/u]

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Katy

Hi Katy,

I think we're saying the same thing about the operation of faith, but perhaps calling it differently. I concentrated on 'our old man' because that's what warriorforgod asked about.

The 'if' which you quoted me saying (I believe, when you wrote 'I don't see a condition of IF here, but fact') you then followed with verses from Romans 8, which use 'if' several times. I agree they are all consequential upon faith.

warriorforgod had quoted Gal 5:17 without naming the verse, which is why I referred to 5:16 on walking in the Spirit [i]in order[/i] (condition) to [u]not[/u] fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

warriorforgod's question is about whether there is a difference between 'our old man' and 'the flesh'. You seem to be saying you don't believe there is. But, since I [u]do[/u] believe that there is (a difference) perhaps we don't completely agree on the [i]dynamics[/i] of how life in Christ works. For, 'if' we walk in the Spirit, [i]not[/i] fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, this is a point of agreement between us; nevertheless, there are those who believe they are doomed never to have true victory over sin in this life.

I did not imply 'the flesh' stops sinning [i]automatically[/i] (that is, without the person's co-operation), as if its [u]ability[/u] to sin has been switched off instantly. But, I [u]do believe[/u] it is essential to stop certain sins immediately upon salvation - depending upon the manifestation of sin in the unbeliever's life.

For instance, the testimony of a very angry woman who came to the Lord was 'I couldn't be angry even when I tried'. This is how she [u]knew[/u] Jesus had changed her; but this might not be the testimony of someone whose biggest problem had been smoking cannabis, (for instance), who now could give up both weed and tobacco. Do you see what I mean?

As a Christian keeps walking in the Spirit, I believe there are battles to be won over both past sins and present temptations, and each time we recognise something as sin [i]to us personally[/i], the challenge is to stop [i]doing[/i] that as soon as possible. This is what Oswald Chambers calls 'continuous conversion', I believe. He explains it better than I, perhaps.

Hi Dorcas,

I will have to read this more thoroughly this evening, but did want to say this.

It seems according to scripture either Both flesh and our old man is crucified with Christ

OR

Paul uses these terms interchangeably???

Look at this:
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I'll respond with more later.

Katy

warriorforgod asked

What do you mean by "if we lay hold on this truth?" Does that mean that if we don't lay hold, the "old man" has inspiration?

Put another way, if you were a farmer and moved to new premises, and and no-one told you about the all-singing and dancing combine you had in a barn you had not unlocked yet, you might just use the old equipment you had found on the premises already. But, if you knew you had a new machine, you would probably arrange for the old equipment to go to the junkyard.

In spiritual terms, we receive the gospel which has been proclaimed to us. If no-one tells us our old man has been crucified with Christ, we carry on trying to please God by whatever method we know, even if it doesn't seem to bring the desired results. We tend to blame ourselves for not trying hard enough. Not praying enough. Not Bible-reading enough (and so on). When the answer may be that we have to stop all that, and receive a competely new truth about how His life becomes our life. That's what I mean by 'lay hold': believe. (The question is always, then: believe what?)

I believe I already shared from Romans 6:

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of [or, grafted into] his death, we shall be also [i]in the likeness[/i] of [grafted into] [i]his[/i] resurrection:

6 [u]Knowing[/u] this, [u]that our old man is crucified[/u] with [i]him[/i], that the body of sin might be destroyed, [u]that henceforth we should [b]not serve sin[/b][/u].

[b]Knowing[/b] = intimately acquainted with

In this case, being intimately acquainted with the truth that our old man has been crucified with Christ, we also [u]know[/u] the reason for this is that, 'henceforth we shoud not [i]serve[/i] sin'.

Please clarify what you mean by "factually, not theoretically" and what is the difference between these two and "principle."

I think it goes like this:

A Christian has an old nature from his physical birth and a new nature from his spiritual birth. The New Testament contrasts these two natures and gives them various names which are more or less synonyms:

Old Nature

“our old man” (Romans 6:6 note)

“the flesh” (Galatians. 5:24)

“corruptible seed” (1 Peter 1:23 note)

VS

New Nature

“the new man” (Colossians. 3:10 note)

“the Spirit” (Galatians. 5:17)

“God’s seed” (1 John 3:9)

I do believe these are used interchangeably.

Katy

I simply mean that if we don't believe the old man is dead, we are not going to find him dead in our experience. To me, this is a pivotal point for our faith

Dorcas, I wholeheartedly agree!

Paul tells us to KNOW
RECKON and YIELD to this fact!

I'm catching your drift here! And so glad you said that.

You know, this is the issue with WOF and the easy believeism false Gospel.

They keep the old man alive wanting more and more and more feeding into me myself and I, and don't teach we are crucified with Christ.

Paul says of these, their appetite is in their belly, minding earthly worldly things, who are enemies of the CROSS.

Paul also said I am Crucified to the World and the world is crucified to me.

The lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes.....all materialism in one form or fashion driven by the flesh or old man?? either/both!!

Thanks Dorcas, Great point!
Katy

Historically I know that people have associated the "old man" with the flesh. But scripture tells me that when we are born again the old man is crucified and all his desires

The "Old Man" and the "Flesh lusting against the Spirit" is one in the same thing.

The Old Man represents Adam, fleshy, earthy. The New Man represents the holy Spirit, Christ, Heavenly.

So with all this information, How is it that if we are crucified with Christ (old man) and that our flesh is crucified, then why do we war against a dead enemy?

Hi warriorforgod,

To your last question.... please look up on myutmost.org, Oswald Chambers' 'Continuous Conversion', and read it with this verse from Romans 8:

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if [b]ye[/b] [u]through the Spirit[/u] [b]do mortify the deeds of the body[/b], [u]ye shall live[/u].

You are still reading flesh and old man as one and the same. The old man is a spiritual mind which influences the flesh, but flesh of itself is not sinful [i]per se[/i]. It becomes sinful if this is what we use it for. But, as Paul explains in Romans 6, flesh can be made to serve righteousness, rather than sin.

One last thought... philologos posted a series of explanations in a thread started by PreachParsly, called 'What is sin?' You might get a better sense of what I'm trying to say from those replies, also.

Thanks.

To Katy.... :-D Thanks also.