can the Church adapt?

Nearly everyday we learn more about the earth, about the universe and the Creation. Sometimes these new things change our perspectives, such as when great telescopes were used to determine that the universe is expanding outward in all directions. this discovery overthrough the idea of Steady State, that many athiests scientists held (because it implied that there was no beginning or end to the universe.) The subsequent discovery of universal background radition (noise) that shouldn't be there lent further evidence for the big bang that created the time/space continuum.

To me, neither of these discoveries contradicts anything in the Bible. but this is not so for quite a few Christians.

what is concerning me is that the Church is keeping the baby (Jesus) in the bath water, and it is getting cold. The people who wrote the Old Testament were great people, Children of God that brought the Faith and understanding of man's place and role on earth to us. But lets face it. They didn't understand the facts of nature at all. For them, the earth was at the center of the universe and everything else (the heavens) revolved around it. They knew nothing about biology, nothing about comets, or even that stars were other suns which had planets.

my great concern is the clinging to the INTERPRETATIONS of Old Testament writers, and then saying that if they are not true, then the rest of the Bible is suspect, and then following on this, that we can't trust what it says about Jesus.

scientific progress and discovery is not going to sit still. but the words of the Old Testament cannot be updated or revised, as we do with just about everything else when new things are discovered. so rest assured that the Church that sits still on conventional interpretation of the Old Testament will continue to be contradicted by scientific discovery. and slowly this will erode peoples' faith in the Church.

In life we move ahead with what we learn, or ignore our misunderstandings and fall behind.

The real jewels in the Bible are the teachings of Christ Jesus and the crown is His attonement for our sins. and this is the point of the Bible. It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

bub

Hi Bubba,

To me, neither of these discoveries contradicts anything in the Bible... It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

The problem some Christians have is not the definitions of what really had been identified - however imperfectly - and retained for us in scripture - but they have been taught that science and God are opposed to each other.

This is the real flaw in the logic, for God created [i]everything[/i].

What science often does, though, is to force people's eyes off the Creator, and on to the created - the creature - whether it be an invention like the corkscrew, a lens or a calculator (for examples), and to let these dictate our view of God, rather than our view of God being that He is infinitely [b][i]greater[/i][/b] - He whose mighty power framed the whole thing, from stardust to human, and even became a Man Himself.

The church should never adapt to the world but the world to the church.

The tragedy is when as the old saint horatius bonar exclaimed in his day: "I looked for the church and found the world and looked for the world and found the church!"

postmodernism is not a new way of sharing the gospel, people still are the same and need the old gospel of the cross.

Compton wrote:
Hi Bub,

It is not a book about science, astronomy, or biology, it is a book about faith.

The bible is also a book about facts. If the bible isn't factual, then why should it inspire faith?

MC

Good!

so rest assured that the Church that sits still on conventional interpretation of the Old Testament will continue to be contradicted by scientific discovery. and slowly this will erode peoples' faith in the Church.

I agree... it will erode the intellectual faith of unconverted church members. For the true child of God who has been powerfully and radically born again, made a brand new creation in Christ, and filled overflowing with the Holy Spirit, modernism and the latest theories will not cause them to bat an eyelid - let alone be shaken in their faith.

Jim

First of all, Bub, the old testament was not written by "GREAT PEOPLE", BUT AS THE WORD SAYS, "AS THE HOLY SPIRIT SPOKE, THROUGH THE MOUTHS OF THE PROPHETS. Remember?? All the hundreds of prophecies about Jesus, His birth, death, and Kingdom???Written by great people???.....The Bible, all of it, was written by God himself..That's Chritianity 101,,to those who have been born again.....,.,.,,,,,,,,..........So, we should move on because science disagrees with the Bible, and oooooh, I cringe in terror and disdain that anyone would lose faith in the church.........You cannot see that just maybe those that say we are the church may not be???....So called men of God SLAUGHTERED...hundreds of thousands of men, women and children during the dark ages, and reformation[ which was simply
Divine deliverance]That was the Church. Gosh, I would hate for people to lose respect!!.......and just for the record,,,,Science had proved, and believed that the world was flat, a few hundred years ago,,,and a "great church" burnt alive a few of their church members for considering it was round,,and it was right there in the bible all along....When Jesus appears as Almighty Creator and Judge, we will see Him as he is. The Bible says, that He will collapse this Universe you speak of, by melting every molecule, to erase every stain of sin and death, and make a new one, after dinner...........God never said to trust in the church, but he did say,[ if you believe that God Yahweh wrote it].....CURSED IS HE THAT PUTS HIS TRUST IN MAN.....The Bible also says, that the earthly mind is an Enemy to God, and will always war against His Holy Spirit, both within and without. God wants you in his Holy Heaven, but believing the Bible was written by man, and that science trumps his knowledge isn't going to help.........MARVEL NOT THAT I SAY, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN..........WITHOUT HOLINESS,NO MAN SHALL SEE GOD....Tom

Here is an example of what i mean: the flood, from Noah's point of view, covered the whole world. the story was written from this perspective. they could not possibily know what was going on in Australia.

from our perspective, reading this story, to assume that Noah's perspective is the whole truth is to throw context completely out of the story. we would not read any other story this way, but because Christians insist on factual stories instead of the "Parables down to the foundation of the earth" as Christ TELLS US explicitly, they missinterpret the story entirely.

I'm certain there was a great flood of the Holy Lands that destroyed everything there. I'm certain that Noah built a boat and rescued his family and as many domesticated and other animals as they could find (they would need them after the flood)

But when Christians start insisting that the whole world was flooded and there were two of every kind of animal (including baby dinos) on Noahs Ark, then i understand why people dismiss Christianity as a fantastic cultural myth. From Noahs point of view, the whole world was flooded. From Noah's point of view he had an ark that held all the animals he could come up with. Polar bears, penguins, etc. were not on this boat. The logistics are completely impossible. and it doesn't say that God gathered all the animals from the four corners of the earth and put them on the boat.

this is just one example where Christians ignore the perspective of the author completely and insist on facts that were not intended by the author because they insist on literal translations and physical facts from a book that is about our spiritual condition and salvation.

bub

THE BIBLE SAYS IN GENESIS, THAT THE "HIGH MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED" BY THE FLOOD. NOW I ASSUME YOUR SCIENTIFIC MIND UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORT OF THAT. THAT IS WATER, 6 MILES HIGH...ABOVE SEA LEVEL. THE EARTH ROTATES, AND GRAVITATIONAL PULL CREATES SEA LEVEL, OUR BODY WEIGHT, AND OUR ABILITY TO JUMP OVER THE TREES, OR NOT......THAT'S GLOBAL, BUB....EVERY GRAIN OF SAND, EVERY RIVER, EVERY TOILET YOU FLUSH, IS CONNECTED TO THIS THING THAT INVOLVES SEA LEVEL AND GRAVITY. .......I,M GUESSING YOU HAVE IT IN AUSTRALIA TOO??....SO IF EVEREST, K4, AND OTHER MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED,,,YOU THINK THAT POSSIBLY THE PACIFIC OCEAN WOULD HAVE HELD OUT UNDER SEA LEVEL, FOR 3 MONTHS....YOU KNOW, THROWN UP SOME NATURALLY SELECTED DAMS AND DYKES?, TO PROTECT ITSELF FROM GROWING TOO TALL???[EVEREST IS UP NORTH, BY CHINA, BY THE WAY, NOT NEAR EGYPT].....THERE IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE OF A CATACLYSM THAT SEPARATED LAND MASSES AROUND THAT TIME....AUSTRALIA COULD HAVE BEEN NEXT TO PEORIA[MY BIRTH PLACE]. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THESE SUPPOSITIONS AND THEORYS..................AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE WEREN'T POLAR BEARS AND PENGUINS ON THE ARK? YOU DON'T, BUT YOUR EXERCISING YOUR FAITH TO TRUST YOUR THEORIES, THAT IT 'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE. AFTER ALL, SCIENCE DISPROVES IT. .......AFTER 3 OR 4 YEARS IN THE OREGON MOUNTAINS, A HEREFORD BULL APPEARED IN THE CIVILIZED AREAS WHERE I WAS CRUISING IN MY MOUNTAIN BIKE. HE WAS UP THERE ON A PINE FILLED NOLL, MAD AS A HORNET, AND TERRIFING. HIS HORNS HAD GROWN TO A FULL 6 FEET, HIS BODY HAIR FELL TO THE GROUND, 5 FEET, LIKE A WOOLY MAMMOTH. HIS BODY MASS APPEARED BIGGER TOO. I GAVE HIM HIS WAY ANYWAY HE CHOSE....THE POINT I'M MAKING, THAT THE LORD HAS PUT ADAPTION, FOR SURVIVAL, DEEP IN OUR GENETIC CODE. WHO SAID A SPECIES CANNOT ADAPT...EVER SEE A STRAY CAT, THAT WENT WILD???AND HER KITS AFTER A FEW GENERATIONS....THEY ARE DIFFERENT CREATURES.....DID YOU EVER THINK, THAT FOR SOME TIME, ALL THE CHURCH HAD ....TO FEED ON....WAS THE OLD COVENANT WRITINGS? YIP, POLAR BEARS, KOALAS, TAP DANCING PENGUINS......8 WERE SAVED WHEN THE ARK FLOATED BY, "ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH",......AND THE HOLY SEED OF GOD WAS IN THAT BLOOD LINE, JESUS THE CREATOR,,,,,AND ALSO THE GOD OF JUDGEMENT ON A PLANET STEEPED IN SATANIC UNBELIEF, SUCH AS EVOLUTION. ....."AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, SO SHALL IT BE ON THE DAY THE SON OF MAN RETURNS, AND SHALL HE FIND FAITH?".............TOM

bubbaguy wrote:
Here is an example of what i mean: the flood, from Noah's point of view, covered the whole world. the story was written from this perspective. they could not possibily know what was going on in Australia.

from our perspective, reading this story, to assume that Noah's perspective is the whole truth is to throw context completely out of the story. we would not read any other story this way, but because Christians insist on factual stories instead of the "Parables down to the foundation of the earth" as Christ TELLS US explicitly, they missinterpret the story entirely.

I'm certain there was a great flood of the Holy Lands that destroyed everything there. I'm certain that Noah built a boat and rescued his family and as many domesticated and other animals as they could find (they would need them after the flood)

But when Christians start insisting that the whole world was flooded and there were two of every kind of animal (including baby dinos) on Noahs Ark, then i understand why people dismiss Christianity as a fantastic cultural myth. From Noahs point of view, the whole world was flooded. From Noah's point of view he had an ark that held all the animals he could come up with. Polar bears, penguins, etc. were not on this boat. The logistics are completely impossible. and it doesn't say that God gathered all the animals from the four corners of the earth and put them on the boat.

this is just one example where Christians ignore the perspective of the author completely and insist on facts that were not intended by the author because they insist on literal translations and physical facts from a book that is about our spiritual condition and salvation.

bub[/quote

Tom, you have ignored the point altogether. From the perspective of the author the mountains were covered by water. as far as he could see the whole world was underwater. you are ignoring the perspective of the author who cannot see the whole world, but only has experience of the place he lives (is).

next, Australia. there is clear evidence that the Aboriginies have been living on the island for well over 50,000 years. they were not wiped out by the flood, cause it happened on the other side of the world!

then explain to me how Australian mammals got on the Ark! this kind of ridiculous talk tells me that you aren't concerned about reality or facts.

bub

No, I addressed the point exactly, but , I give. I know the Lord is bigger than your unbelief, or your faith in the facts or science. Jesus must reveal Himself to you . He said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you....FOR SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE CLEARLY SEEN,BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE....THEY BECAME FUTILE IN THEIR THOUGHTS, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED............PROFESSING TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME ....FOOLS....IT IS MY HOPE THAT YOU WILL FIND JESUS IN FULLNESS, AND REJECT VAIN KNOWLEDGE OF MAN,,,,TOM

Miccah, Tom,

this all or nothing approach to the Bible is exactly what i fear will be undermining the faith in the future. it is unreasonable, and willfully refuses to consider the facts written into the Creation by God.

bub