Christian Hedonism?

Someone recently told me that it is great what John Piper sees about "joy" BUT that is just one fruit of the spirit, or part of the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. Love, Gentleness, Kindness, etc is the rest..

so I believe Piper gives a great view of joy but that is "not" the whole picture.

I hope that helps.

In your signature you quoted Philippians 3 vs. 10, "that I might know Him and the power of his resurrection", but that was only half of the word. ..And the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to His death, in order that I might attain to the resurrection to the dead. " We will reign with him, IF we suffer with Him"...If any man come after me, let him pick up his cross, and follow me daily."
There is no real joy except when we are put to death, and crucify our natures daily, to resurrect in Him. Paul, if any soul, knew the joy of the Lord, and intimacy, yet, he said he rejoiced in afflictions, for when he was weak, then he was strong, because the power of Christ rested on him. The new testament is crammed with testimony about suffering, and the cross, "Death works in me, but life in you",Paul quipped. really, there is no ministry that defies this principle. The danger I see with the" always blessed crowd", and always happy in Jesus" is that it defies the cross, and the price, "for the Joy that was set before Him". Are we trying to spare are soul the agonies of death needed to find true resurrection life and joy? A seed MUST fall into the ground and die, BEFORE it bears much fruit. This is a daily thing necessary to follow Jesus. The fruit joins with resurrection,; it isn't real otherwise, often generated by the soul. You cannot have true joy, without exhibiting agape love, and true mercy, commensurately. It is the same fruit, and you can always see the scars of death in one who walks here. God didn't call you to be joyful, but to be conformed to the image of His only Son, fully and exactly. The mystery is that in God's joy, we can suffer greatly, and still shine with joy unspeakable. Consider the martyr Stephen. Tom

Honestly, I've never considered the concept of

duty in my seeking of God. It's always because of need[mercy], or to find Him. I don't think in a way that defines my relationship with Him, at least on that level. It's seems simpler than that to me; I am close to Him, or not, and joy comes in cycles. I don't want to confuse Peace with Joy, though. I seem to most always have Peace, or a rest in Christ, not withstanding the warfare I'm in, or negative circumstances, and I cannot relate to teachers who cultivate a mentality as to WHAT I should be, or how I should be, as a Christian.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, but consider that joy is a fruit of seeking God's HEART, and maturity bears this fruit through abiding in Jesus,not a separate goal in itself. Consider Jeremiah in Lamentations. Was maturity present; absolutely; was he at peace; absolutely, was he joyful, I think not, nor Jesus as He responded to the daughters of Jerusalem telling them to weep for themselves, as he trod the path to His Crucifixion.

In my experience with the Lord, I have never sought Joy in itself, nor felt that it was or is "foundational" in my Christian experience, but a reaction from my Father either because He just loves me, or revelation that I am His; like that anyway, but I can relate to seeking Him because he is God, and worthy, and because I want his heart, and to make Him joyful.

Jesus endured for the Joy set before Him; not as a treasure in itself, as did Job."Even though He slay me, yet will I worship Him". I must say that I am a failure, always falling short, but I am not condemned. I fear God, and am learning to love Him. God is sometimes angry, sometimes sad, sometimes very, very, funny, and my foundations are to seek His Heart above all. Jesus said, "Peace I give unto you" That is constant, as is the fruit we bear that is real. I support you in your understanding of this walk, and know that we are all growing as we follow Him to the end of Days.

Remember the poor." which we were glad to do". The poor of the Earth need the true Jesus, who will move through us as we serve them. God becomes real, or he becomes a concept; fruits of the Spirit are but the Character of God in us. As we preach and minister in love the reality of Jesus in us becomes apparent and creates life and faith, so my main focus is not to react to attain an attitude toward Him, but to know Him, and to please Him in whatever way is real. I appreciate your ideas. thank you,Tom.