the greatest evil

sermonindex wrote:
The greatest evil is the evil human hearts of unbelief that crucify Christ afresh.

Amen.

sermonindex wrote: The greatest evil is the evil human hearts of unbelief that crucify Christ afresh.

I will second that.

Physical dying by any means is not near as horrible as rejecting the gospel and spending eternity in hell.

As far as weaponry is concerned, evil men will always find a way to kill people. Outlaw one weapon, they will invent another one to replace it or finetune an existing one.

I have no confidence that man will through diplomatic negotiations eliminate war from the human landscape. Man has intensified efforts to do so and failed miserably. Men love to fight because their hearts are evil and will continue to be so as long as they are away from God.

ginnyrose

Bubba,

I agree in your assessment of the destructiveness of nuclear weapons. However, I question the church's right or responcibility to impose its opinions/convictions on the state. The state does not have a glowing reputation of taking a "Biblical" principle, putting it into practice and having it work well. Let me illustrate one tiny incident.

All of us are aware of how the Feds appeared to have bungled the relief efforts (especially FEMA) following hurricane Katrina. (Do not get me wrong: the victims had developed a mentality that it is the government's responsibility to fix whatever went wrong, so this only compounded the problems.) Sometime later, a tornado touched down in Daviss County, IN destroying homes, businesses, etc. The locals immediately went to work cleaning up, fixing, repairing, building. When the FEMA man came on the scene he was surprised to see what the locals had done and were doing. He declared there is nothing for them - FEMA- to do!

atomic weapons kill indiscriminately[/quote

Do not all weapons kill indiscriminately? It happens everywhere all the time. Consider the fatalities that occur in Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. They do not use atomic weapons. This is war. It would be 'nice' if those who fight would be more 'careful' in who they choose to kill, but this is not the case.

as i said, the Church that opposes these weapons will prosper and grow in that those who oppose such an abomination will be rewarded by God.

Would you mind giving me a case example? I am aware of the Quakers pacifist position on this issue. I am also aware of the larger (liberal) Mennonite churches role in protesting the use of atomic weapons. I cannot speak for the Quakers because I am not all that well acquainted with them but I can speak of the Mennonites.

To what end have they been blessed for protesting the government's use of atomic weaponry? They have exchanged Biblical non-resistance for pacifism which has put them on a slippery slope of apostasy the unlike that has not been seen (I think) in all of Anabaptist history. They have exchanged evangelism, holiness for socialism, benevolence to the needy. Works of benevolence are commendable if not separated from the gospel, but in many situations this is what has happened.

And to add insult to injury, for many years the Mennonite Central Committee has refused to come out against abortion! (Do not know its present position on this issue.) War on the unborn is not worth their efforts. (I have talked to a lady who had contacted MCC about this but they were close mouthed and very uncooperative.) Now figure this out.

The liberal Mennonites have fast gone the way of popular Christianity in their apostasy in just the past 50 years. So, in my observation I have not seen any church being blessed for trying to impose their pacifist philosophy onto the government.

I am not saying I like atomic weapons: I am only saying that non-resistant Christianity has better things to do which will have better results. Too often we are ignorant of how God is working in the lives of people in the military. Pastorfrin has shared his testimony on "Let's Talk about Peace." On that thread I shared a story of a navy intelligence officer who was 6 months from retirement. The HOLY SPIRIT convicted him of his job and he left the Pentagon and now works as a teacher. (There is a picture of him, Tom Mooney, in the April/May 2008 issue of "Country" magazine, published by Reiman publications, on page 54.) He says there are others whom the HS has convicted of their role in military machine.

Bubba, God is working in the lives of people and it seems to me we do well to cooperate with him in His methods and not take this work into our own hands because that is fleshy and gets you nowhere spiritually.

My understanding and observations of life and what I have seen happen.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

but the Mennonites may not be taking a position against abortion for reasons unclear to outsiders.

Bubba, one can only guess why this is so. However, in the conservative segment of Mennonites opposition to this procedure is strong with no tolerance whatsoever. The reason for this is because people believe it to be killing.

the RSOF takes no position. this may be so in the Mennonite Church??

Likely. Mennonites have no 'pope' to steer them but they do have seminaries, and church periodicals in which ideas are shared and promoted. :-?

When is the last time you saw anything in the news about Mennonites working against nuclear weapons???

I do not know the answer to this question since I do not have access to "Mennonite Weekly" where these kind of ideas/acts are reported. But I suppose you are right: there has been very little protests done at military bases...maybe because God has kept them too occupied with clean-up following disasters. I am talking about Mennonite Disaster Service which will go into any community hit by storms to assist in clean-up. They have refined this service which has even grabbed the attention of the news media! and now other church groups are following suit!

Liberal Mennonites have also jumped on the bandwagon of making the church friendly to unrepentant homos and lesbians. This may be their latest project, having displaced the protests against the use of nuclear weapons. Or maybe they have decided they have reached the goal politically in that people are scared of it. Do not know...reckon I will have to ask someone, like my BIL who teaches at a liberal Mennonite University...will see.

The bottom line is that modern Mennonites have strayed far from their Anabaptist roots. If Michael Sattler, Felix Mantz, Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons could see where the modern Mennonite church has gone, they would 'roll over in their grave'! I am sure they would be so embarrassed and ashamed like some conservative Mennonites are..:-o

ginnyrose

Ill give a biblical answer to the greatest evil under the sun.

My Heart.

"My heart is as black as ink and blots out the Name of God"

This should be sobering for us all.

Peace brothers and sisters.

What's more? The sanctified gift, or the altar that sanctifies the gift? In this case, the heart is the altar of the temple, and some temples are for God and some are for Satan. I think a nuclear bomb is an "evil invention" (Romans 1:30), the product of a darkened heart, of a heart that has been "given over" by God to run wild in its natural, godless state. The darkened heart came before the bomb, and the bomb was invented by it, therefore the wicked product is but a fruit of a more wicked producer, the root of which is able to produce not merely bombs and guns that destroy physical things and take life, but is also the wellspring of all defilement in the spiritual. The sins Jesus mentions that proceed from the heart: "fornication, uncleaness, lust, malice, backbitings" are all unseen and of eternal consequence and have an all-encompassing range of destruction and death with billions and billions in their grip leading to eternal death. Bombs can only destroy the temporal, and within a given proximity. The heart is able to produce bombs leading to physical death, as well as unseen defilements of spiritual sin leading to eternal death. In both, the heart is the seat.

The unregenerate heart is a greater evil than anything it can produce.

without technology such as nuclear weapons, this heart could not effect a worldwide destruction of the Creation

The sins proceeding from the heart have a far greater kill-ratio than any nuclear bomb can ever dream of. The greatest evil known to man is invisible, dear Bubbaguy; you can't hold it, smell it, touch it, taste it, feel it. It's a spiritual dynamic, taking its seat in the heart of man when Adam sinned. Nuclear bombs were merely one of the things resulting from the injected spiritual DNA of this invasion.

I do agree that in the [i]physical[/i], and perhaps of all the evil fruit that has blossomed from the heart of man, the nuclear bomb may be the most atrocious means as of yet for taking mortal life on a grand scale, but this is only one of the evil ramifications the heart is able to produce. I believe there is a greater evil yet within the heart, still to be revealed.

BrianPaul wrote:
Ill give a biblical answer to the greatest evil under the sun.

My Heart.

"My heart is as black as ink and blots out the Name of God"

This should be sobering for us all.

Peace brothers and sisters.

No doubt that is so true.
It's our heart, our human heart that result of the suffering because of the thought of the heart exposed to the very roof top of the earth; unless it's submitted to the continual correction and the renewing of the heart fully dedicated and full surrender to God the creator of all from the beggining through Jesus Christ the Messiah.

I would certainly agree that nuclear weapons are a terrible evil. It's worth noting that the horrible level of destruction and human misery that filled the writings of Jeremiah and Lamentations could be surpassed in a single missile launch today. If John the revelator was really glimpsing nuclear weapons being used en masse, it is not surprising that he would employ metaphoric language to describe the scale and horror of the vision. Man in his time couldn't imagine that a few leaders would have tools capable of melting cities greater then ancient Rome in mere seconds.

Having said that I think this is vitally important...

...the heart is the seat.

This is the point of a deep fissure between the biblical Gospel preaching and our many conservative and liberal churches who carp on about various schemes of morality and happiness.

Untill we accept that the human heart is a hateful alien towards God, we will not be able to accept the Gospel. In that sense the old heart is the greatest evil, and churches that substitute the cross (a way that is contrary to man's heart) with humanism ( a way that is compatible with man's heart) are the greatest accomplices of that evil.

I don't think we can expect much more then weapons of mass destruction from intelligent men who never knew God. Yet for men who claim to be of God, while endorsing not only these weapons, but also by letting forth a varitable Niagra of human defiance to the cross from their ostensibly Christian pulpits, they have become a weapon of mass deception to this generation.

The temptation we have to resist is becoming self-righteous in some particular while remaining indifferent to our own place at the cross. An environmentalist who gives his life to protect the ecology while rejecting Christ is just as self-righteous as the religous moralist who marches around with derrogatory signs towards homosexuals.

I can only conclude that the more we Christians protest nuclear weapons, or homosexuality, or evironmental pollution without making the death and ressurection of Christ our central and persistant theme, the more we are aiding and abetting the very evil that terrifies us in our dreams. The idea that our vigorous protests of social evil will cause unsaved men to warmly approve of Christianity is a misdirection to ourselves from the gospel, and a misunderstanding of the human heart.

If we bring real light to the world, it will hate us. This is because we aren't just giving some righteously tuned opinion against some world leader, or some evil businessman, according to our own arbitrary perspective, but telling the unwelcome truth about the very nature and corrupt framework of their own hearts according to the perspective of God. People who want to do live morally and do good deeds aren't attracted by that message...only those who are appalled at their own sin truly come to Christ.

MC

[url=http://www.poodwaddle.com/worldclock.swf]World Clock[/url]

It is based on averages but it still puts things into perspective.

Certainly a nuclear launch would dramatically alter the numbers but that is not really the point. You called this in your estimation 'the greatest evil' but it can never be so.

The greatest evil is sin and without it's elimination even if you rid the earth of atomic weapons man would still devise ways to kill and conquer, rid themselves of the inconvenience produced by selfish aims; abortion, violence, rape, murder, theft ...

For many years when the arms race was in full heat I was petrified that it was eminent, only a matter of time (even days) before the world would see it's demise. And frankly, though my perspective is completely altered now as a Christian, the point of fact is that the threat is only the push of a button away.

if Christians would make the abolition and destruction of all nuclear weapons their primary purpose, they would do more to convince others (nonChristians) of their Faith and the Truth of this Faith than any amount of preaching revival or other form of spreading the Word. the world would without a doubt know that Christians are dead serious about loving their fellow man if Christians demonstrated, acted, preached, and undertook every possible work or activity that could result in the elimination of nuclear weapons. if Christians would do this and fail, people of other faiths may well join in.

that Christians tolerate something capable of destroying God's Creation and all of Christianity does not speak well for our appreciation of God and His Great Works.

Well that is sheer rubbish. For how many years has the cry gone forth over the murdering of the unborn from Christan's (direct your gaze back to the running chart and it's running tally). Just to stare at it for awhile and ponder the whole sordid affair, all the death and disease, violence and destruction. You would have us believe some collective outcry would 'convince' the same rulers that will not abolish let alone punish the now convenient act of murdering the innocent, though it has been tried and continues to be protested, spoken out against ... that they would however lay down their weaponry all because we are dead serious about it?

It's absurd and a product of your imagination. To hear these kinds of things often makes me wonder if there isn't some hidden agenda behind a great deal that we think we are doing and it applies in many ways, even in the attempts to win the lost. What I mean is this nefarious idea that as long as we attempt something with a 'good' motive, the betterment of the race for the here and now (though it is [i]temporal[/i]) and a thousand other things, just as long as we give it the old college try we can wash our hands of it even if it produces nothing or next to nothing, "I did my part", thinking ourselves somehow justified, forgetting;

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

they would do more to convince others (nonChristians) of their Faith and the Truth of this Faith than any amount of preaching revival or other form of spreading the Word.

And yet just what was it that produced the faith that we hold? A committee, a program, a collective petitioning of mere men around an ideal? This is complete nonsense. All the turns of history that ever caused men to wake up were caused by God intervening into the evil human affairs and through the very foolishness of preaching, revival and spiritual awakenings. If you think it otherwise you are delusional.

The greatest evil is that man will say no to God as Philologos once put it. You would put off the greater import for the lesser;

I definately hear what you are saying, the human heart is full of malice and ego.

this said, without technology such as nuclear weapons, this heart could not effect a worldwide destruction of the Creation. in fact, atomic weapons are a reflection, a manifestation of this evil heart.

The effects for the root cause, it is what the larger common denominator of the church at large goes about doing. Attempting to win, fix, manipulate, program and design ways from the outside in. The word of God does not pierce the heart as it once did because it has been taken into the wrong hands and put about after it's own intentions, mans. It is said to mean something different than it's intentions because we are now so much more enlightened, have progressed as a species and yet ... do the numbers lie? You do not believe the bible on it's own merits Bubba but apply it as it suits you. Your concerns are earth bound despite even the Lord Jesus and the apostles constant emphasis otherwise; away from the temporal, the earthy ... [i]But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.[/i] 1Co 7:29

It is not abstract or fatalism that we are dealing with but [i]eternity[/i]. We have gone from this to majoring on the minors, the here and now, the temporal, while giving the import a nod and a wink and a "but of course". You also forget one very important matter;

[i]He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him.[/i] Dan 2:21,22

[i]The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.'[/i] Dan 4:17

[i] ... all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"[/i] Dan 4:35

[i]For not from the east or from the west and not from the wilderness comes lifting up, but it is God who executes judgment, putting down one and lifting up another.[/i] Psa 75:6,7

[i]And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:[/i]
Act 17:26,27

Who is in control, mere men? What keeps the world from spinning into full on anarchy, our great learning and advancement? Our peculiar evolutionary abstracts, 'micro' organic changes that makes men a better race than they were 2000, 5000 years ago? That we have become more civil and moral, more God fearing and God loving? Is it so?

It certainly is not, it's worse not better, it's painted to look so but the heart is still as full of all evil and depravity as it ever was. Even the so called 'best' of us can barely get along without pride or evil imaginations and suspicions of each others intents and motives. It is sin that brought us down and pays it's price in death, no one escapes it. It is [i]the[/i] greatest evil.

[i]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:[/i] Heb 9:27

I worry about you Bubba, your approach to things that matter often seem to be bound to this earth and social causes. It has never been without them as we have our obligations, to the poor and to the widow and likewise. But the things put forward as our greatest concern are not those that scripture ever puts forward as so; what the world does and says, what it believes are it's humanitarian constructs of an elusive earthly utopia, all without God ... or even with Him as long as it goes according to our desires and wishes.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I believe it was mentioned earlier and not to be forgotten;

[i]But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.[/i] 2Pe 3:7

Do you think mere men will thwart this?

[i]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/i] 2Pe 3:10

[i]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/i] 2Pe 3:12

Even the Lord Himself speaking ...

[i]And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/i] Mat 24:6-13

It all seems so redundant doesn't it? To keep hearing all this, to have it so in our face as it were even to the point where some of us might secretly harbor the unbelief unspoken of but nevertheless ...

[i]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.[/i] 2Pe 3:4

You can go on socially engineering a thousand of like constructs and never get anywhere. It is the heart, it always will be that must be reached, it is the grand effort all throughout scripture and experience. If this is not the aim and effort we will continue to spin our wheels, create more and more confusion and even work directly against God Himself.

The sins proceeding from the heart have a far greater kill-ratio than any nuclear bomb can ever dream of. The greatest evil known to man is invisible, dear Bubbaguy; you can't hold it, smell it, touch it, taste it, feel it. It's a spiritual dynamic, taking its seat in the heart of man when Adam sinned. Nuclear bombs were merely one of the things resulting from the injected spiritual DNA of this invasion.

Indeed. A better extrapolation I do not know of than just this;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=22841&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Take Heed of Sinning in Thought -venning[/url]

I appreciate you fellows' spiritual input - I agree. Now for more insight into the practical:

To hear these kinds of things often makes me wonder if there isn't some hidden agenda behind a great deal that we think we are doing and it applies in many ways,

Bubba, quite a few years ago there was found in the possession of the Communist Viet Cong canned foods prepared by MCC! Now go figure that! Some conservative Mennonites have speculated that the liberals are working in cahoots with the Communists (and believe it or not, but conservative Mennonites are quite patriotic: they just will not take up arms to kill anyone) and in effect undermine our government.

Bubba, in the practical, I am very leery of this kind of activism by liberal Mennonites, and by extension Quakers, because it plays into the enemy's goal of dividing the American citizens and its government, thus hoping to destroy it.

(Mind if I tell you another true story? Quite a few years ago "Christianity Today" magazine had a feature article detailing the work of VORP (Victims-offenders-reconciliation-program). I was fascinated with its concept and thought now this is a Biblical thing to do. So I called their headquarters to discuss this more with them. In the discussion, I asked about the spiritual dimension of this program. The lady told me in definite language that it is not a part of their program, it is left up to the individual to use it if he/she wants to but it is not an integral part of its philosophy. Here you have a program that utilizes spiritual truths but leave out the Master Teacher.. This is NOT the way to deal with sinful folks.)

On the spiritual level a greater fear is that we are seeing people throwing their resources to be used by the devil to drag them and others into hell and at the same time they think they are doing God's service! Bubba, this to me is the scariest of it all!

Make sense?

ginnyrose

Bub,

The time to arrest the development of the nuclear arms race was when it started. To think that a mass of concerned Christians is going to 'convince' the world leaders to abandon their weapons of mass destruction ...

the abortion comparison is not valid here. Abortion is committed by a lone doctor and woman, and maybe a nurse or two. it is murder, but the state views this as a matter of women choosing, and thus will not interfer.

But if her children are born and she kills them the state will punish her.

It is valid in the point that for all the outcry from Christians or no and are they not dead serious? that this effort has not stopped it.

the bomb is the work of a society that views mass murder (and unfathomable biological and environmental destruction) as justifiable under certain circumstances. (Just as the US justifies bombing Japan, "to save american lives.")

Ah, now you are at least closer! [i]a society[/i], change that and you might have something. Take the bombs away and you still have a society bent on it's own evil inclinations ... For crying out loud, we have a society that is more concerned over global warming than of it's own destruction, what a minute, that is the great concern, right? We are manipulated to believe whatever is more predominant, even when there is a great disagreement over whether all of this or if any of it is even true. Now go find a scientist who will deny that nuclear fallout is up for disagreement as to it's effects. The thinking of the world is insane, madness is in the heart of man.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

That is the context Bub.

And faith without works is indeed dead. But what manner of works are in view, protesting? Where do you find this in the scriptures? Is this what Christians are instructed to be about doing ... saving the created world doomed to destruction? Do you not believe Jesus Himself and what He told would come to pass ...

from what i can tell, protesting and working against atomic weapons is perhaps the most important thing that Jesus would have us do (unto Him.)

[i]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[/i] Joh 3:16-20

[i]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.[/i] Joh 5:39,40

[i]Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.[/i] Joh 8:12

[i]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.[/i] Joh 17:3

[i]Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.[/i] Mar 1:14,15

[i]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/i] Joh 3:3