2 Samuel 14:17, spiritual gift of discernment?

i have a question about this passage, which reads

"Then your maidservant said, 'Please let the word of my lord the king be comforting, for as the angel of God, so is my lord the king to discern good and evil. And may the Lord your God be with you.'" (2Sam. 14:17, NASB)

this seems to imply that David (the king) had what we know in corinthians to be described as the spiritual gift of discernment. But this is before christ and the coming of the holy spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit did come upon David, but that doesnt meant that he had the holy spirit dwelling inside him as is the situation post cruicifixion. Also, joab states in this verse that david is "as the angel of God" what does it all mean???

Hi themumfs...

this seems to imply that David (the king) had what we know in corinthians to be described as the spiritual gift of discernment. But this is before christ and the coming of the holy spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit did come upon David, but that doesnt meant that he had the holy spirit dwelling inside him as is the situation post cruicifixion.

While I am not entirely certain that what David displayed was a [i]spiritual[/i] gift of discernment (ala I Corinthians), it is possible that his discernment was directed by the Lord. Remember, the "gifts" were present in the Old Testament (in a much different sense) when the prophets prophesied and when Elijah and Elisha performed miracles. Even King Saul was counted amongst the prophets at a time when he wasn't necessarily acting very "spiritual" (I Samuel 19:24). Were these [i]spiritual gifts[/i] or simply the result of the Spirit of the Lord coming [i]upon[/i] an individual?

[b]What is “discernment?”[/b]

I think that we really need a good study in what "discernment" really is. What does it mean to discern? Most dictionaries will equate discernment with intellectual or sensory recognition, perception, detection, and an ability to distinguish or decipher between matters. The New Testament speaks about “discernment of spirits” or “discernment between spirits” (I Corinthians 12:10). It seems that this is referring to a supernatural gift from God to distinguish between “spirits.” Are the “spirits” here speaking of [i]spiritual beings[/i] or [i]attitudes[/i] (or both)? I tend to believe that this gift is comprehensive enough to cover both.

On the surface, each person has an ability to “discern.” Of course, this doesn’t mean that it is a spiritual gift, but more of cognitive deduction. We are presented with various paths or decisions in life and we make a decision about those things. We often make decisions based upon discernment achieved through years of experience. This natural discernment often is derived from lessons learned and is often equated with wisdom. Every person, every parent and every leader exercises this natural form of discernment in everyday life. One might say that we need “discernment” right now to “discern” whether or not someone’s “gift of discernment” is truly the result of a gift from God.

It appears to me that a true “gift of discernment” is a supernatural ability to distinguish between individuals, intent, or situations that are completely undecipherable on the surface. Of course, there is a strong risk of individuals who claim such a gift who then use it to gossip, argue or manipulate the opinions of those around them. This, in my opinion, is a telling sign that such a person does NOT exercise such a gift. Why would God place such a gift into a person with such intent?

[b]“God told me…!” or “God showed me…”[/b]

How often have we heard, during a discussion about important matters, a person invoke the “God told me” or “God showed me” response? Whether we are discussing a matter as simple as the color of carpet in our church buildings or important issues of doctrine, someone will inevitably utter these words. I am convinced that these people, although well-meaning, are not REALLY hearing God most of the time. It is my perspective that they are just trying to add weight to their opinion – especially in matters that are not vitally important. I once heard a pastor reply to a person who invoked the “God showed me” remark. He said, “[i]Did God really ‘show’ you that or did you just figure it out[/i]?” This pastor did not mean to be offensive, but to express how we often invoke God on the side of our opinion when we either used simple logic, wisdom or experience to arrive to our conclusion.

[b]Gifted “discerners” with poor discernment…[/b]

I have seen some individuals claim a "gift" or "ministry" of discernment -- yet their actions reflected gossip, cynicism, condemnation and pride. Yet they spoke of their “gift” in an almost boastful manner. Is this the result of “discernment?” Or is this simply someone simply become “wise in their own eyes” and claiming that their “discernment” is a product of the Lord? When their “discernment” is rejected, such individuals typically invoke the same defense used by many would-be prophets who claim that such rejection is because “[i]prophets are misunderstood and rejected[/i] and “[i]most people just don’t understand the office of a prophet[/i].” Some people that parade their “gifts” of discernment (and prophecy) often grow annoyed when someone chooses to question or examine their words. It seems that they fail to recognize that we are called to “test everything” (I Thessalonians 5:21) remembering that the “spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophet” (I Corinthians 14:32).

Unfortunately, most of the believers that I have encountered (particularly those who almost boast about their “gift”) seldom exhibit a truly Biblical utility of such a gift. It seems that many who claim the gift often end up casting “surface judgment” that is simply based upon their limited understanding of the situation. In other words, they end up “figuring things out” by leaning on their own understanding while attributing this understanding to the Lord.

I understand that most of these individuals truly believed that they are gifted by God for such things. Yet we must ask how they are profiting both themselves and the Kingdom of God? Many churches today have endured (yes, endured) the wiles of a person who publicly boasts such a gift. When their words are rejected or questioned, these individuals revert to the “poor me” syndrome. They claim that the examination or rejection of their words might either be personal – or possibly a rejection of truth. In turn, these brethren often question the ability of others to “discern” – including the leadership of the local Church. I have heard and even witnessed instances of “watchmen” and “prophets” who lead a quiet [u]rebellion[/u] against an individual or an authority. Most of the time, these individuals do not realize the damage that they create. They simply cannot fathom how an individual or a leader cannot arrive to the same conclusion or “recognize the truth.”

[b]We need discernment![/b]

We are living in the troubling times. There is a need for true, Biblical discernment more than ever before! Why? Not all things are as they appear. The surface of a matter does not always reflect the inner truth of a situation. Often, the surface reflects an image that masks the inner depth of a situation. Too often, we judge things by what we see on the surface which is often hindered by our limited eyesight or even our own reflection. True discernment sees past the surface. It looks past the gossip, past the rumors and even past the apparent “facts” of a situation. True discernment is the ability to understand the guidance, understanding and heart of God regarding a matter.

How often have we arrived to a conclusion only to later learn that our initial observations upon which that conclusion was based were either partially or entirely incorrect? How often have individuals cast judgment on a situation based upon a limited perspective? How often do people use their “discernment” as an attempt to direct the beliefs, persuasions or opinions of a group? True discernment is not hasty. It is not proud. It allows for patient examination of a warning so that a truth can be determined. Unfortunately, this is seldom seen in those who wear a badge of discernment. Even many of the “discernment ministries” found online simply appeal to readers or adherents to believe in a certain way.

Even the “gifted” Church in Corinthians lacked the utilization of true spiritual discernment. Sure, they were “flowing” in the gifts. People were prophesying, speaking in tongues, etc… -- but they were in the midst of vile, unrepentant sin (I Corinthians 5). One individual had a sexual relationship with his own mother! This was not gossip, rumors, insinuations or even questionable allegations. This wasn’t past sin that was washed away by Christ’s blood. This was current, unrepentant sin that Paul even claimed that the Church was proud of (verse 2)! Yet people were still prophesying. People were still speaking in tongues. Where was the gift of discernment?

This is why discernment is needed. We need humble servants of the Cross who can obtain the opinion of God in a matter and gently direct a situation accordingly. We don’t need for gossips, fear mongers, conspiracy theorists or opinionated minds to muddle the water between truth and rumor. We need believers who can discern between truth and falsehood. We need believers who can discern between intent and attitudes. We need believers who can discern between spirits (because not every spirit truly comes from God). We need to believers who can look past the surface evidence and see the truth that lay only in the mind of Christ. We need believers who receive their discernment from the heart of God rather than a hasty examination of individuals, situations or doctrine. We need truth, spoken in love, which always points the individual and collective Church toward the end result desired by God. Otherwise, we are simply chasing the wind.

The end of all of these gifts – whether discernment or prophesy – is to reveal the truth and love of God to both the Church and a lost and dying world. Without such love, our gifts are but a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. May the Lord gift the Church with true spiritual discernment!

:-)

1 Samuel 16:13

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

The Spirit of God according to Scripture never left David. It says in this Scripture that the Spirit came upon David...just like what happened at Pentecost...when Peter quoted Joel.

In the solid teachings of Denny Kenaston you will find a wealth of Scriptural teaching on the Holy Spirit's work in David...

http://www.charityministries.org/msg_detail.a5w?vlast_index=SET146

In Christ
Jeff

Hi everyone.

themumfs, how are you?

Welcome to the forums also.

About the question you brought up for us...

I think the discernment that is in view here has to do with making good or wise or right judgments. Not that this would not be a gift, but I do not think it is the same as is in 1Cor 12:10, for instance.

In 2Samuel 23, king David says

"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God"

That's what I think is in view here in this passage too.

In our text, David is asked by this woman to judge in a matter(which all appears to be a ruse, at the instigation of Joab, in order to get him to bring Absalom, the king's son, who had killed one of his brothers, back to Jerusalem).

So when the woman says to him

"The word of my lord the king shall now be comfortable: for as an angel of God, so [i]is[/i] my lord the king to discern good and bad..."

I think she is saying he is going to do what is right because he is like one that speaks for God or that rules with God's wisdom(for "an angel of God" compare here with Ex 23:20-23, Dan 4:17, Luke 1:19-20).

Just a bit further on it would seem that David perceived that Joab was behind this. But how might that be significant?

Well, isn't it true that there is more to making righteous judgments in this world than applying right morals to the "obvious facts" at hand? And don't we too often find that things are not quite as they may have seemed at first?

When Adam and Eve sinned, the scripture says that God said of them

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:"

And so to live as God? And to make the right decisions about the good and evil that they now knew.

But how hard is that! So often, don't we find that we just don't know enough to make the right decisions in life? How many things are hidden from us when we have to make descisons about furture events or about others around us? How on earth can we possibly know everything there is to know and do what is absolutely right? And besides that all of the inner conflicts and pressures that cloud our judgments.

We need wisdom from God. Because He sees all things clearly. We need Him.

And that's what I think David had. God was with him in the decisions that he made(1Samuel 18:14).

Chris

Brother Chris wrote...

We need wisdom from God. Because He sees all things clearly. We need Him.

Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

According to Scripture all wisdom that is of God comes from the Holy Spirit. Whether it is David or Paul, the wisdom that they received is given to those to turn toward Him. This is the promise found in verse 23...

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make my words known unto you."

Man cannot know the wisdom of God unless He speaks to man. The Counselor is given so that we might know His will. David was annointed with the Holy Spirit to know God's words. David was conformed into the image of God's Son. That is the only way that David might have a heart that pleases the Father.

In Christ
Jeff

Rookie wrote:

""David was conformed into the image of God's Son. That is the only way that David might have a heart that pleases the Father.""

Where does it say the David was conformed into the Image of Jesus Christ?

And, The Christ in you is the only One that is pleasing to the Father. God does not even put me in the equation, that is why He birthed His Son in us, only because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the only one He deals with, that conforming us to the image of His Son.

Ephesians 2:20-22 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Temple of Christ in you, The Temple of the Holy Spirit, The Temple of God the Father.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

It takes being born again to be formed into the image of God's Son. Then it is the Christ in us that is the Wisdom of God, the Holy Spirit is the teacher of this truth.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is the Life of Jesus Christ the Sperm of God, in an act of Love that Jesus Christ is now our new life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Phl 3:10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

This is the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is what the Holy Spirit was sent for, to teach us who this Christ that is now our life, that has been born again in us, who He truly is.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

What Day:? The day of Pentecost.

Teacher of the Christ that is in us:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ is our Life and all that the Father is, for they both make their abode in us and with us. The Holy Spirit is specifically spoken of seven times in John 14,15,16 and 17 as our Teacher. The Power is the Life of Christ in us, the teacher of this power is the Holy Spirit who is now in us forever and will teach us Christ for all eternity.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Still our Teacher, not the Life, for only Christ is our Life. Only Christ is our Seed, Only Christ is our link to the Father, Only Christ and the Seed of the Father which is Christ, has made us son's of God.

John 16:7-15 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Why, Christ in us and not the Holy Spirit being our life.

John 17:20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This is the difference in the old testament and the New Testament in His Blood.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Our only Glory:

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Christ is not the Holy Spirit. Christ is our life, the Holy Spirit is the Teacher of our life in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

"

Hi again everyone,

A couple of examples from scripture come to mind also,

"And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counseled in those days, [i]was[/i] as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so [i]was[/i] all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom. "

- 2Sam 16:23(KJV)

And in Isaiah, Cyrus is called the Lord's anointed. See Isaiah 45:1-13.

I don't think we need to make more of this than it is. God graciously gives wisdom to all sorts of men. For His own purposes.

Chris

Brother Phillip wrote:

Where does it say the David was conformed into the Image of Jesus Christ?

From where do men say that Scriptures teach that David is a "type" of Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Chris wrote:

I don't think we need to make more of this than it is. God graciously gives wisdom to all sorts of men. For His own purposes.

This is very true. We find this precept clearly taught in Romans 1 and Proverbs 1-2.

But in respect to what Scripture teaches on the life of David we are given a rich testimony of a man who's heart was fashioned by God so that as Scripture says,

Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, “I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’

Please notice the very last thought of this particular Scripture...

"a man after My own heart, who will do all My will."

How does God enable David so that this Scripture is not broken but remains true? What is God's provision?

In Christ
Jeff

Has anyone begun listening to Denny Kenaston's teaching on the life of David? This man's preaching is also anointed....

http://www.charityministries.org/msg_detail.a5w?vlast_index=SET146

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Initially it was asked here if what is described in the passage from Samuel was [b]the same as the gift of discerning of spirits in Corinthians[/b].

I don't think it is.

Hope that clarifies things a bit more,

Chris

Quote:

""Has anyone begun listening to Denny Kenaston's teaching on the life of David? This man's preaching is also anointed....""

God does not want us to be like David, if man can do it himself as this man is preaching, then Christ died in vain.

Gods want for us is to embrace the Christ that He sacrificed for us and become like Him. There is no life in David or any other old testament prophet. There is only life in Christ Jesus our Lord, Whom God has rebirthed in the believer that we might have the nature and life of God in us.

If I am going to study a biography, it will be the life of the Christ that is in me, He is the only one who is pleasing to God, He has the Heart of God and does not have to be after it, It is His. Making it ours by His life that is in us. I don't have to be a man after God's own heart, God Himself has birthed that Person in us and His Heart is ours and ours is His.

God chose David to be an example of who Christ would be and now is in our life. It was Gods work and good pleasure that David was a shadow of Christ. Christ is the completion of that shadow and as He is in this world so are we, not by anything that we have done or ever will do, but by the work of Christ in you the Only Hope of Glory.

1 John 4:14-21 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

This is of God, not imitating David's life.

""Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.""

In Christ: Phillip

this seems to imply that David (the king) had what we know in corinthians to be described as the spiritual gift of discernment. But this is before christ and the coming of the holy spirit. Yes the Holy Spirit did come upon David, but that doesnt meant that he had the holy spirit dwelling inside him as is the situation post cruicifixion. Also, joab states in this verse that david is "as the angel of God" what does it all mean???

The Lord gave David the Holy Spirit based on Scripture. One of the fruits of the Spirit in David's life is discernment...

Psalm 17:
4 \tConcerning the works of men,
\tBy the word of Your lips,
\tI have kept away from the paths of the destroyer.

"By the word of Your lips" This is David's testimony of the Holy Spirit's work which teaches him to discern evil.

Psalm 25:
8 \tGood and upright is the LORD;
\tTherefore He teaches sinners in the way.
9 \tThe humble He guides in justice,
\tAnd the humble He teaches His way.
10 \tAll the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth,
\tTo such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.
11 \tFor Your name’s sake, O LORD,
\tPardon my iniquity, for it is great.
12 \tWho is the man that fears the LORD?
\tHim shall He teach in the way He chooses.
13 \tHe himself shall dwell in prosperity,
\tAnd his descendants shall inherit the earth.
14 \tThe secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him,
\tAnd He will show them His covenant.

Here again we have David in whom the Spirit of God caused him to write these words...

Again..."The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and He will show them His covenant."

Psalm 27

7 \tHear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice!
\tHave mercy also upon me, and answer me.
8 \tWhen You said, “Seek My face,”
\tMy heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.”
9 \tDo not hide Your face from me;
\tDo not turn Your servant away in anger;
\tYou have been my help;
\tDo not leave me nor forsake me,
\tO God of my salvation.
10 \tWhen my father and my mother forsake me,
\tThen the LORD will take care of me.
11 \tTeach me Your way, O LORD,
\tAnd lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.

Again we see a conversation between David and the Lord. How does God teach David?

Psa. 36:0 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD.

Psa. 36:1 \tAn oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
\tThere is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 \tFor he flatters himself in his own eyes,
\tWhen he finds out his iniquity and when he hates.
3 \tThe words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit;
\tHe has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 \tHe devises wickedness on his bed;
\tHe sets himself in a way that is not good;
\tHe does not abhor evil.
5 \tYour mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens;
\tYour faithfulness reaches to the clouds.
6 \tYour righteousness is like the great mountains;
\tYour judgments are a great deep;
\tO LORD, You preserve man and beast.
7 \tHow precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
\tTherefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.
8 \tThey are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house,
\tAnd You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures.
9 \tFor with You is the fountain of life;
\tIn Your light we see light.
10 \tOh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You,
\tAnd Your righteousness to the upright in heart.
11 \tLet not the foot of pride come against me,
\tAnd let not the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 \tThere the workers of iniquity have fallen;
\tThey have been cast down and are not able to rise.

Here David teaches about the wicked and the righteous.
7 \tHow precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
\tTherefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.
8 \tThey are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house,
\tAnd You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures.
9 \tFor with You is the fountain of life;
\tIn Your light we see light.
10 \tOh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You,
\tAnd Your righteousness to the upright in heart.

Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit fashioned his heart. The Holy Spirit testifies that David could discern between good and evil.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

God does not want us to be like David, if man can do it himself as this man is preaching, then Christ died in vain.

Paul wrote this to Timothy...

2Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...

Paul is only mentioned 156 times in Scripture....

David appears 1087 times in Scripture....

Brother Phillip, have you considered why the Scriptures testify of David's life as a "type" of Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Yes I have considered the Life of David and don't want to be like David, that would be taking a step down from what God in Christ Jesus has made me, A SON.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Was David perfect? Was Christ Perfect?

I hope you see the difference and the difference that Christ in you makes in the believer. He is the One that furnishes all the good works that is in us. Not David.

This is the fulfillment of all God's works. This is the only thing that will make us perfect and that is the Christ birthed in us.

There is no perfection in David who was just a shadow of Christ the Only Perfect One and He the only One making us perfect.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

David does not work in me mightily.

We will meet David some day and we will See Jesus as He really is. Who would you want to be like and who would you want to bring your salvation dependence to. The Law of David and Israel or the Grace of Christ. Which would you want to put your trust and life in, the mercy poured out on David and Israel or the Grace through the Faith of the Son of God. Mercy or Grace

I will choose God's loving Grace in Christ Jesus, our life, over mercy every time.

To not do all the works of the Law demands Mercy or death. To live in Grace demands the works accomplished by the Grace giver in the one who has received Grace by the Grace givers Faith.

How are we presented Perfect to God the Father?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may ((((present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.)))))

This is according to His working in us, that we can be presented perfect to the Father. Truly Christ in you is the only Hope of Glory.

Who does the work in us? Certainly not David or his life, because it was God who wrought the works in David's life not David. David's works were adultry and murder and not being a good father.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi everyone

"David's works were..."

Remember too how he had to be kept back from killing Nabal. And the census that he took, where 70,000 died in Israel.

"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God. And [i]he shall be[/i] as the light of the morning, [i]when[/i] the sun riseth, [i]even[/i] a morning without clouds; [i]as[/i] the tender grass [i]springing[/i] out of the earth by clear shining after rain. Although my house [i]be[/i] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all [i]things[/i], and sure: for [i]this is[/i] all my salvation, and all [i]my[/i] desire, although he make it not to grow."

- 2Samuel 23:3-5(KJV)

"...Although my house [i]be[/i] not so with God"

Yes I have considered the Life of David and don't want to be like David, that would be taking a step down from what God in Christ Jesus has made me, A SON.

There is no perfection in David who was just a shadow of Christ the Only Perfect One and He the only One making us perfect.

How then does one reconcile this Scripture...

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Was God wrong when He said this of David?

How about Psalm 40, a song which David wrote...

Psa 40:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.

Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Psa 40:4 Blessed [is] that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psa 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, [are] thy wonderful works [which] thou hast done, and thy thoughts [which are] to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: [if] I would declare and speak [of them], they are more than can be numbered.

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.

Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

Psa 40:11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

Psa 40:12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.

Psa 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me.

Psa 40:14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psa 40:15 Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha.

Psa 40:16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.

Psa 40:17 But I [am] poor and needy; [yet] the Lord thinketh upon me: thou [art] my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

How does one reconcile these Scriptures "based" on the Scriptures?

In Christ
Jeff

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

After the flesh, we are to know no man, not depending on the works of the flesh or anything the flesh has accomplished. David was a man after God's own heart, only because God first gave him the heart to seek Him. We know David no longer in the flesh, if we are to know him, we will know him only in the spirit, if it pleases God. Seek Christ and His kingdom, where we are seated with Him in the Spirit in Heavenly Places and this is what is pleasing to God, be ye reconciled to God by the Christ that is now our lives.

With Christ in us we are new creatures, born of God, not just used of God to show what He was going to do when His own Son would Go to the Cross and accomplish the newness of life we have in Christ.

God knew that even if He raised up a David that no one would listen and would still need a savior and new life to bring son's of God into His House.

That is accomplished in Christ our only hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Jeff,

About Acts 13:22, the entry in Robertson's Word Pictures suggests that...

"The words quoted by Paul as a direct saying of God are a combination of Psa_89:20, Psa_89:21; 1Sa_13:14 (the word of the Lord to Samuel about David)."

Also...

"Hackett observes that the commendation of David is not absolute, but, as compared with the disobedient Saul, he was a man who did God’s will in spite of the gross sin of which he repented (Ps 51). Note “wills” (thelēmata), plural, of God."

Also, about Psalm 40, verses 6 and 7, and perhaps part of 8 are made refrence to in Hebrews chapter 10, in regards to Christ.

Maybe compare this also with Psalm 89 and verses 19 and 27 in particular.

And verse 6 and 27 here with Colossians 1:15-19.

Grace and peace,

Chris