MURDER INCORPORATED..It's just Politics, after all.

sermonindex Apr 4, 2008

Is this the first time ever in a U.S. Presidential election, where both candidates will endorse the right to abort the unborn? I think it is.

I cannot, and will not vote for such a man, or woman, if Beelzebub himself were his opponent.[ which, ironically, may be the case.] If it means the destruction of America, so be it, but;

Abortion is murder.

God hates murder.

Are we responsible before God

for those that we endorse?

brothertom.

B

BVO Apr 4, 2008

Wow!
Are we responsible before God for who we endorse? I believe we are as we are joining ourselves with them. We are however called to pray for those who God puts in authority over us. That's enough for me. Thanks and God Bless, Barry

sermonindex Apr 4, 2008

Brothertom...

Obviously I agree that abortion is murder.

However, one of the topics that is generally off limits on this forum (and is addressed in the rules of the forum) is politics. It has to potential to be the most divisive subject that can come up on this forum. In the past it has only turned ugly.

I would caution you to go ahead and state your thoughts about abortion, but leave the poilitical discussion out of it. If you dont then expect the discussion to slide down that slippery slope to the point where the moderators need to step in and shut it down. I'd hate to see that happen.

From the Forum Rules:

~~[b]~~*Politics[/b]
We have found it necessary to curtail political discussion here for a variety of reasons. It is primarily out of step with the manner and thrust of Sermon Index in it's intention and we have found little good to come from an allowance of things based politically into the discussions. It is unfortunate, but the results have shown that policy and pundits of secular government are divisive enough inherently and while that is neither here nor there, it is again that which would have little to do with this sites intentions. Moreover, where we have allowed it in the past it is almost always that of the Western hemisphere and largely American politics that wish to be argued over. This is a ministry borne out of Canada and gone out into all the world, rarely has the politics of other nations been brought forth for discussion and overall very little of it has to do with spiritual attributes. For these reasons we ask you to not bring forth political matters.
It is inevitable that with an allowance of items and issues effecting us all by that which is happening in this present world that attributes of a political nature will creep in, this is understood. However, we will keep a very close eye on these things and may ask you to stop midstream or lock a posting if in our discretion we feel that it is out of place in the forum.

Just some brotherly advice.

Krispy

R

repentcanada Apr 4, 2008

brother Tom, strong post!

sermonindex Apr 4, 2008

Is abortion sin? If one is curtailed in calling sin; the sin that it is, where does it stop? I'm sure every Christian desires to retain or have freedom of speech and expression when it comes the Gospel and the things that God is for and against. Yes; it's the law and not one can be saved by the law, the law is a tutor to make one realize they can't be saved by the law, thus relying in Jesus, HIS birth, HIS sinless life, and the cross and and HIS resurrection for eternal life. The sin called abortion has been coined by the world to be a political term. What happens when the world coins all sin a political term? Do we let the world set the agenda for the gospel? If we omit anywhere and anyway part of the gospel; what are we doing? If we omit or silence what we can talk about we are definitely doing just that. If one gets offended about another talking about abortion being a sin; what could we derive from that? JMO, not a political one; just a biblical one. Anyone guilty of abortion can be saved; once they realize it is a sin and ask Jesus to cleanse them and make HIM Lord of their life. They come to HIM in the same way we all do; lost and without hope apart from HIM. I really doubt if anyone has ever had any blood shed or died from someone calling abortion a sin on a forum; but Christ died to pay for that sin.
moe_mac

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Apr 4, 2008

Hi Brother Tom…

I agree with everything that you said about abortion. In my opinion, this is the most important and immediate issue of the election. Abortion is, after all, legalized murder. It is the death penalty for those who were never given a fair trial. It is cruel and unusual punishment. It robs unborn children of equal representation under the law. All of this is done as a “right to privacy” (which was ~~[url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_18/]~~the basis upon which Roe v. Wade was based[/url]). But since when did a “right to privacy” extend to making murder legal in the United States?

There are many things that a person’s “right to privacy” does NOT protect. A person cannot “privately” commit suicide in most states (the most notable exception is Oregon in cases where a person is imminently terminal). A homeowner cannot “privately” kill someone who enters his/her house (although in certain states, a person may exercise a “castle law” which will permit them to defend themselves, their families or their guests when they are in danger -- even to the point of injury or death). Most drugs are still illegal – regardless of whether they were taken “privately.” Many other things are illegal EVEN IF they are performed in the privacy of one’s own property.

The bottom line is that a person cannot engage in illegal activities simply because it was done in private. Yet this is the basis for Roe v. Wade. It allowed for the murder of an unborn child simply because it was considered a matter of privacy by three extra members of the Supreme Court. Interestingly, this Court needed two terms in order to make its decision. Why? Two of the most liberal members of the Court (Potter Stewart and Thurgood Marshall) gave the attorney for Roe and an unprecedented “extra opportunity” to present her case (because she lacked a reasonable Constitutional basis for her case). She came back with her “right to privacy” argument.

The paramount manner in which to fight this despicable legalized slaughter of the unborn is through the Supreme Court. Roe v. Wade set up a precedent by which future Courts must recognize (but not necessarily follow). The Court has often disregarded decisions by previous Courts (such as ~~[url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1856/1856_0/]~~Dred Scott v. Sandford[/url] and ~~[url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1895/1895_210/]~~Plessy v. Ferguson[/url] which ruled that slavery and segregation were legal under the Constitution). Currently, the Court sits with four conservative “strict constructionists” (two of which were appointed by President Bush), four liberal “interpret the Constitution for our time” supporters (two of which were appointed by President Clinton) and one moderate swing vote. One new vote could make the difference between life and death for nearly three million unborn children over the next four years.

Pro-abortion advocates, along with gay-marriage supporters, legalized prostitution supporters, advocates for legalized drugs, peddlers of “artistic” commercial pornography, etc… -- they would all rejoice if believers in this nation were silent and unwilling to make our voices heard (especially through our vote). This is why involvement is more important than ever before. For far too long, social extremists have used the media in order to cause anti-abortionists to feel “ashamed” of their position. Pro-abortion groups have even hired “professional protesters” to hold up signs in Washington D.C. in support of this continued slaughter. Sadly, the anti-abortion movement has become far too quiet in the past few years.

Keith Green and Melody Green of Last Days Ministries started ~~[i]~~Americans Against Abortion[/i] during the early 1980s. It helped present the attitude of millions of Christians in regard to this issue. Melody Green even met with President Reagan, presenting a petition with millions of signatures of individuals opposed to abortion. Reagan in turn signed the “~~[url=http://www.burbank.com/emancipation.shtml]~~Emancipation Proclamation of Preborn Children[/url]” in 1988. It reads:

NOW THEREFORE, I, RONALD REAGAN, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim and declare the unalienable personhood of every American, from the moment of conception until natural death, and I do proclaim, ordain, and declare that I will take care that the Constitution and laws of the United States are faithfully executed for the protection of America's unborn children. Upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind and the gracious favor of Almighty God. I also proclaim Sunday, January 17, 1988, as a national Sanctity of Human Life Day. I call upon the citizens of this blessed land to gather on that day in their homes and places of worship to give thanks for the gift of life they enjoy and to reaffirm their commitment to the dignity of every human being and sanctity of every human life.

Unfortunately, Reagan lacked the power to enforce this proclamation. The majority party in Congress, at the time, was vehemently opposed to any restrictions on abortion. However, Reagan did create a gag order that prevented federal funding of abortion. He also supported the Hyde Amendment which limited funding for many abortions.

As far as this next election is concerned, I agree with Krispy that we need to be careful about the extent of our comments on SermonIndex. We also need to be careful about the allegations that we make in public. For instance, you implied that both candidates will support abortion. Yet ~~[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/]~~Senator McCain said in January[/url], “~~[i]~~I do not support Roe v. Wade. It should be overturned[/i].” In 1984, McCain ~~[url=http://www.nchla.org/keyvoteabt.asp?vote=307]~~voted for the Siljander Amendment[/url] which defined a person as an protected individual from the moment of conception and proclaims the need for “Equal protection under the Law” as defined by the ~~[url=http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html#14]~~14th Amendment of the Constitution[/url] (which, ironically, is the same Amendment used to legalize abortion as a “right of privacy”). McCain also ~~[url=http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm]~~ voted against a Democratic bill[/url] that would force the Federal Government to spend $100 Million on contraceptives and sex education for children. He consistently voted AGAINST Partial Birth Abortion, “secret” abortions for school girls, HHS grants for abortion providers, and abortions on military bases. McCain also said that he would support the ~~[url=http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/2004_GOP_Platform_Abortion.htm]~~Republican Party Platform[/url] which calls for a Human Life Amendment to the US Constitution which would ensure “equal protection under the law” for unborn children (as opposed to the Democratic Party Platform, which calls for no additional restrictions on abortion).

While I disagree with John McCain on a number of issues, I believe that we should be unsoiled in regard to such allegations. As a matter of voting, I will probably choose the candidate who best reflects my beliefs about the moral direction needed for this nation. The alternative is to do nothing, stay home on November 4th, and let the rest of the people in this nation choose the authority and moral direction of this nation. However, what would be the outcome if enough anti-abortion believers do the same? Personally, I feel the liberty to vote. In fact, I almost feel an obligation for the sake of my wife and family. While the choices may be less than what I would have chosen, they are the only ones to choose from (or, of course, I could choose to do nothing).

My wife and I needed a new vehicle, so we recently purchased a Ford Escape. We didn’t buy it because it was the safest and best vehicle on the road (we would have loved a Land Rover, a BMW or Volvo), but because it was the best viable and affordable choice available for our family. My wife and I came to our decision after researching it and the alternatives. We realized that it would be a lasting choice of at least four or five years; thus, we needed wisdom in our decision. We are somewhat pleased with our decision (even if we would have preferred something beyond our means), especially when we compare it with the other alternatives. If something goes wrong, we will certainly contact Ford Motor Company to voice our complaint. I believe that this is similar to many of the decisions we make in life. We are presented choices. Since there are no perfect things on Earth (including Churches, pastors, motor vehicles and, of course, Presidential candidates), we are forced to choose between them and decide between the best imperfect alternatives.

I don’t mean to further this discussion toward a political tone. Forgive me if it seemed that way. The leaders of this website have instigated rules in order to avoid turning this website – whose focus is revival – into a series of heated discussions about involvement in politics. I just wanted to voice my agreement at the evils of abortion while clarifying your statement about the candidates. Abortion is certainly a matter of sin or ungodliness. In addition, our involvement in political discussions and ballot participation (or lack thereof) is, of course, often derived from our views as believers. We simply need to remember that we are to discuss the roots of the issue rather than the implications of political involvement. It can be discussed with complete propriety in accordance to the guidelines of this website.

sermonindex Apr 4, 2008

Krispy: "Jesus held a coin up with Caesar's image."Rend unto Caesar the things that belong to Caesar, and to God, the things that belong to God." When politics drift into the moral law of God, then it is my faith that becomes an issue, not political whims. It is no longer political, but an act of faith, and rather than choosing the best for America, or the lesser of two evils, I choose to withdraw. I still have the right to do so, at least for a while.

Prayer will prevail more than my vote, and I'm shooting for a full and complete commitment to Jesus' heart in this one. I'm not talking about civil disobedience, or even a protest. I will act according to my faith.

The only reason I posted this, is to express my thoughts and questions on a decision I have made to no longer endorse those who do not stand in a full commitment against such a monumental atrocity. Whoever becomes President; I will pray for. They cannot be as bad as Nebakanezer, who Daniel served an prayed for, and submitted to.

In the end, judgement begins at the house of God. The prophets and priests were held responsible for Israel's terrible devastation, as it will be for America's; the church, asleep for decades. This victory will be won in the Heavenlies, not in the ballot box. My allegiance to the Kingdom and the King, outweighs my allegiance to America and the American dream by far. I assure you that the American Dream is coming to a close.

Cry out, cry out....What shall I cry?....all flesh is like grass, and it's loveliness as the flower of the field, the flower fades, and the grass withers,,when the breath of the Lord blows upon it but the Word of the Lord abides forever..

Surely the people are grass........

The word of the lord stands forever.

Just for the record, there is forced abortion and sterilization in China, but it could never happen here. What is highly esteemed in the eyes of men, is an abomination in the eyes of God.

I know I'm changing as I grow in faith concerning these issues. thanks for your concern.

sermonindex Apr 5, 2008

Moe_mac....Most of the UE does call sin political, and divisive, and an abuse or offense, and the preaching of the Gospel in these arenas is akin to a hate crime. They have areas that are cordoned off for free speech, but, say you are led to minister to a homosexual, in a public place, and you suggest that he sins in his lifestyle, you can be convicted and jailed.....So it has begun...

So, it will also be in America on that scale soon, as it seems that political correctness and the anti-christ spirits are joining more and more each hour. Pray for the Body of Christ, and the weak. Tom

sermonindex Apr 5, 2008

I will continue to pray for you and for the Lord to continue to give the power to preach as Peter did on the Day of Pentecost as he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

As Paul did when he changed sides and became a new creation and went against the Pharisees who said let's just all get along and don't rock Caesar's boat or Caesar won't let us play church and have our religion.

We within ourselves do not have the power to stand in the face of persecution and adversity.
It only comes through Jesus and HIS Spirit.

I think you are right on in your analysis of what is happening in America. Most people in America are far to blind to see it and although some know the truth; they have surrendered to censorship in speaking out and call it love.

God Bless your faithfulness.
moe_mac

Edited on 4/06/08
Planned Parenthood, the nation’s most prominent abortion provider, received an astounding $336 million in government (both federal and state) grants. But get this: Planned Parenthood took in more than $1 billion last fiscal year, according to its own annual report, for the first time in its history.

It is apparent that there is big money to be made in abortion.

According to the Planned Parenthood Federation of America’s annual report (2006-07), the organization conducted 289,570 abortions, an increase of almost 25,000 abortions over the previous year.

American Life League reports that one in every four abortions in our nation is now conducted at a Planned Parenthood facility. In fact, Planned Parenthood is actually responsible for the deaths of more than 5,500 innocent lives every week. Through the years, more than three million unborn babies have had their lives snuffed out at a Planned Parenthood facility.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 ~~[b]~~Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.[/b] 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 John 4:16-18
~~[b]~~God is love.[/b] Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Eph 5:8-17
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. ~~[b]~~11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.[/b] 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

15 Be very careful, then, how you live-not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.