War On The Saints | SermonIndex

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todd Aug 7, 2003

From what I gather, the book "War on the Saints" was written mostly by Jessie Penn-Lewis and co-authored by Evan Roberts (of the Welsh Revival). Since Evan Roberts had a part in it, I was instantly interested. After all, this man was so mightily used of God and surly he has great insight into the things of God.What disturbed me was some of the controversy surrounding the book and the time. Some sources say that Penn-Lewis convinced Roberts that he was receiving too much glory and so he should back out of the revival. And apparently she ended up convincing him of this and once he was gone so was the revival. Roberts then moved onto the Penn-Lewis propery and became a spiritual hermit who wouldn't even see his own family. The above is a general understanding that I have gathered. However I can in no way say that I have truly researched this issue. I am under the impression that this forum is a good place to get some insight into this situation. It is my hope that what I learn here may serve as a springboard into further research.

K

KingJimmy Aug 7, 2003

I haven't researched the issue either, but, if I get around to diving further into revival research, I'd really like to check it out. Roberts Liardon has a book out called "God's Generals" which makes a pretty interesting case to show that Evans Roberts was pretty much manipulated by Penn-Lewis, who was looking to get her name out there. Or in otherwords, Penn-Lewis was practicing what many would call "Church Politics." From the little of what I understand concerning the Welsh revival, it was a true move of God that Evans came to pretty much denounce. Sounds pretty odd considering he was one of, if not the primary person involved in leading the revival.

sermonindex Aug 7, 2003

All I can say is that Roberts Liardon would be the last person on earth I would look to as an authoritative figure. The details of which should not even be mentioned among Christians.KevinThe first syllable of his last name should give a clue. :-(

sermonindex Aug 7, 2003

All I can say is that Roberts Liardon would be the last person on earth I would look to as an authoritative figure. The details of which should not even be mentioned among Christians.Yes I would have to agree, I am personally reading my copy of the 'true' unabridged verion of The War on the Saints. I would encourage everyone especially you todd to spend the time to read it! I am going to post some principles and excerpts from the book.Roberts Liardon has a book out called "God's Generals" which makes a pretty interesting case to show that Evans Roberts was pretty much manipulated by Penn-Lewis, who was looking to get her name out there. Or in otherwords, Penn-Lewis was practicing what many would call "Church Politics." Jessie-Penn Lewis was woman really used by God. People like T. Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee, Evan Roberts and many others have appreciated her godly fellowship and guidance in the deeper things of God. These are very dangerous matters that we are delving in and I would be very cautious to draw quick assumptions over this issue.Here is an excerpt from the Ninth Editon of the 'Thomas E. Lowe' printing of the "War on the Saints":"It is cheifly to his (Thomas E. Lowe) widow, Hannah Lowe, that readers of this unabridged volume owe their possession of it. Knowing the great value to believers of this exceptional work, she carefully searched for a copy of the whole text over an extended period in the 1960's and, at length, found two copies. one in nearly perfect condition. The republication of the whole volume in its present form, after having been out of print for years, was strenuously opposed, but in 1973, with the help of likeminded believers, Mrs. Lowe had the joy of seeing the book once again made available exactly as its authors (Penn-Lewis, Roberts) intended. It has has been available continuosly since that time."If you want to order a copy of the Hard-Cover version write to:Thomas E. Lowe Ltd.Post Office Box 1049Cathedral StationNew York, NY 10025ISBN 0-913926-04-3 HARDCOVER

sermonindex Aug 7, 2003

Taken from a title page in the 'War on the Saints' by Jessie Penn-LewisThis text is taken from the 'Introductory Chapter' Which I assume was written by Evan Roberts:"It is no more a book for the general reader than is either a medical work on cancer, or a text book on mental disorders. It should never be read for curiosity nor from mere academic intrest. In her foreword to the first edition Mrs. Penn-Lewis wrote: 'To the natural man, who has but a mental grasp of spiritual things, the language used may be meaningless, but Christians of all stages of growth in the spiritual life, who simply take what they can understand and leave the remainder for those who are in deeper need - and until they themselves are in deeper need- will obtain much light on matters within their horizon.'Its main appeal will be to two classes of reader.i. - The first consists of those, who have become involved in some false system of religious teaching drawing its inspiration from satanic lies instead of from the sane balanced truth of the Word of God, and who have thus opened themselves to abnormal spiritual experiences which often result in demon possession. The suffering endured by these dupes of the powers of evil is intense; and since the first edition of this book was printed in 1912 there have been many testimonies to deliverance and help recieved through its pages from such readers. Eternity alone will reveal the ministry it has already exercised and will yet, by the mercy of God, fulfill in restoring such to hope, peace, and sanity.ii - The second type of reader, to whom this book is of immense value is the Christian worker who finds himself or herself faced with cases of spiritual abnormality, of which there seem to be an increasing number in these days of intense satanic activity. To such readers these pages will bring light and guidance.To read the volume online I recommend this website:http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html

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todd Aug 7, 2003

Yes, I hope to read the unedited version sometime. Thanks for the link Greg. Although my subject title might be deceptive, what I am really more interested in than the actual contents of the book (at least for now since I haven't read it) is the controversy surrounding it's time period and the stuff about Evan and Jessie. I also recently heard that some of Evan's friends said that the book was not like him and not like his spirit. Again, I am hoping that this is a good place to inquire about these things. There are so many well-informed contributers here. So, let me just paste part of my original post again, and maybe something will come of it. "Some sources say that Penn-Lewis convinced Roberts that he was receiving too much glory and so he should back out of the revival. And apparently she ended up convincing him of this and once he was gone so was the revival. Roberts then moved onto the Penn-Lewis property and became a spiritual hermit who wouldn't even see his own family."(Edit)Finally, I read last night that her father was a "Calivanistic Methodist." How does that work?

sermonindex Aug 7, 2003

I can't understand how she would have had that much pull with Evan Roberts since he was the one who instructed her in the things of God. He did have a severe nervous breakdown during the Welsh revival and Penn-Lewis was the one who was used in helping him recover. Since they are now long with the Lord anything not recorded by them would be pure speculation. We were not there, and if it is true that he was not allowed to see his own relatives, I'm sure it was only for a period of time while he recovered, and not for the rest of his life. Roberts was there at the beginning of her spritual pathway and she was there for him when he needed someone. I have a pretty large biography about her I will see if I can find anything in it that would help.To this day there is still much controversy over whether the Welsh revival was the real thing or uncontolled emotionalism. Of course the Pentecostal/Charismatics want to latch on to it to give more credibility to their movements.Kevin

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todd Aug 8, 2003

Quote:"Since they are now long with the Lord anything not recorded by them would be pure speculation."Well, I disagree. I think there could be things written by people who knew them or perhaps other factors that I am not thinking of that could contribute. But we should be good historians and, of course, primary sources would be the most powerful evidence for forming conclusions. Quote:"We were not there..."True, we were not there, but many others were and they probably wrote some about it. Quote:"... and if it is true that he was not allowed to see his own relatives, I'm sure it was only for a period of time while he recovered, and not for the rest of his life."I hadn't understood that he wasn't "allowed" to see his family (that seems silly for a grown man) but that he chose not to. And don't be so sure, for I am pretty confident that I read it was for the remainder of his life. But once again, I haven't seen many sources and am hoping for the more informed to give their input. Quote:"To this day there is still much controversy over whether the Welsh revival was the real thing or uncontolled emotionalism."Pretty hard to argue with things like no crime and tremendous God-consciousness. But, there always seems to be controversy. Quote:"Of course the Pentecostal/Charismatics want to latch on to it to give more credibility to their movements."That was a pretty brash statement. I don't see it so much like, but more as people hungering for more of God and hoping that there is more. That God does visit His people in power and wanting to find out how it happens and what it's like. I see it as a way of seeking to understand the revival of God's people. Wanting to know what factors might contribute towards this end.

J

Jason Aug 8, 2003

KTrek (Kevin), I completely agree with you here. Liardon is one of the last people on earth qualified in telling the true from the false. For those of you who do not know the reasons why (besides Liardon's firm Word-faith stance), they can be easily found at www.deceptioninthechurch.com . Secondly, I have God's Generals and, upon reading it, have placed it in the section of my library known as the "false doctrine" or "heresy" section. While some of the information is accurate, everything comes from a definite Word-faith bias not behooving a good biography. It is a rather sharp contrast to the bios that Ravenhill was known to have penned (i.e. those in Why Revival Tarries, etc.).Finally, I also have my questions about the Welsh Revival. David Wilkerson has made some excellent points about revival, one of which is that any genuine revival will leave lasting roots. This was not the case as I understand it in the Welsh Revival -- once Roberts left, it ended pretty quickly and soon it was as if it had never happened. I think (completely opinion here) that Evan Roberts probably came to the realization that being "rooted" in God is much more important and efficacious than Welsh-style "revival." While one is more visible, the other follows the principles of the invisible Kingdom of God. I'm still working through some of this, so if anyone has anything to point out in correction, please do so.