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CHARISMA- "QUESTIONS About LAKELAND"

sermonindex May 15, 2008


[b]HONEST QUESTIONS ABOUT the LAKELAND REVIVAL[/b]
[i]by J. Lee Grady [CHARISMA EDITOR][/i]

I support any holy outbreak of revival fervor. But let’s be careful to
guard ourselves from pride and error.

God is stirring deep spiritual passion in the hearts of the thousands
of people who have traveled to Florida during the last month to
experience the Lakeland Healing Revival. Since these meetings
began in a 700-seat church on April 2, the crowd has moved four
times to bigger venues, the fervor has intensified and the news
has spread worldwide—thanks to God TV and online broadcasting.

Within a few weeks, the bandwagon effect was in full swing. It’s
safe to say that no outbreak of Pentecostalism in history has
gained so much international exposure so quickly as these
meetings have.

I’m a cheerleader for the charismatic movement, so I rejoiced
when I heard the news about revivalist Todd Bentley’s extended
visit to Ignited Church. It was thrilling to hear the reports of
miracles and to watch the crowd grow until a stadium was
required to hold everyone.

When I visited a service on April 15, I was blessed by Heather
Clark’s music and the audience’s exuberant worship. And I
laughed with everyone else as I watched Bentley shout his
trademarked “Bam! Bam! Bam!” as he prayed for the sick and
flailed his tattooed arms over the crowd. Hey, Jesus didn’t pray for
people according to the Pharisees’ rulebook, so I’m open to
unconventional methods.

But I would be dishonest if I told you that I wholeheartedly
embraced what I saw in Lakeland. Something disturbed me, but I
kept my mouth shut for three weeks while I prayed, got counsel
from respected ministry leaders and searched my heart to make
sure I was not harboring a religious spirit. The last thing we need
today is more mean-spirited heresy hunters blasting other Christians.

I am not a heresy hunter, and I support what is happening in
Lakeland because I know God uses imperfect people (like me and
you) to reach others for Jesus. At the same time, I believe my
questions are honest and my concerns are real.

My motive is not to criticize Bentley or the pastor who is
sponsoring these meetings, Stephen Strader. In September 2002
Charisma featured a seven-page article about Bentley’s amazing
conversion from drug addiction. I believe Bentley is a sincere
brother who wants people to encounter God’s presence and power.
No doubt this 32-year-old evangelist needs our prayers now more
than ever, especially since he has become the focus of
international media attention.

But as the noise from Lakeland grows louder and its influence
spreads, I’m issuing some words of warning that apply to all of us,
not just the folks in Lakeland. I hope everyone understands that
these cautions are offered in love:

1. Beware of strange fire.The name of Jesus is being lifted up in
the Lakeland revival, and three people came to the altar for
salvation the night I attended. Larger numbers have come to the
front of the auditorium to find Christ every night since then.

Yet I fear another message is also being preached subtly in
Lakeland—a message that cult-watchers would describe as a
spiritual counterfeit. Bentley is one of several charismatic
ministers who have emphasized angels in the last several years.
He has taught about angels who bring financial breakthroughs or
revelations, and he sometimes refers to an angel named Emma
who supposedly played a role in initiating a prophetic movement in
Kansas City in the 1980s. Bentley describes Emma as a woman
in a flowing white dress who floats a few feet off the floor.

All of us who believe the Bible know that angels are real, and that
they work on our behalf to protect us and minister to us. But the
apostle Paul, who had encounters with angels himself, issued
stern warnings to the Corinthians, the Galatians and the
Colossians about angels who preach another gospel or that
demand attention. In Colossae, believers were so enamored with
angels they had seen in visions that they became “inflated without
cause” by spiritual pride (Col. 2:18, NASB). Paul was adamant
that preoccupation with angels can lead to serious deception.

We need to tread carefully here! We have no business teaching
God’s people to commune with angels or to seek revelations from
them. And if any revival movement—no matter how exciting or
passionate—mixes the gospel of Jesus with this strange fire, the
results could be devastating. We need to remember that
Mormonism was born out of one man’s encounter with a dark
angel who claimed to speak for God.

2. Beware of bizarre manifestations.When the Holy Spirit’s power
comes on people they may feel weak or even fall. The Spirit’s
power can also cause people to tremble, shake, laugh or cry.
Such manifestations are biblical and we should leave room for
them. But where do we draw the line between legitimate
experience and fanatical excess?

The apostle Paul had to deal with outrageous charismatic
manifestations in the Corinthian church. People were acting like
raving lunatics—and turning the church in to a free-for-all of
unbridled ecstatic behavior. Paul called for discipline and order,
and he reminded early Christians that “the spirits of prophets are
subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). In other words, Paul was
saying that no one under the influence of the Holy Spirit should
act out of control.

In many recent charismatic revivals, ministers have allowed people
to behave like epileptics on stage—and they have attributed their
attention-getting antics to the Holy Spirit. We may think it’s all in
fun (you know, we’re just “acting crazy” for God) but we should be
more concerned that such behavior feeds carnality and grieves the Spirit.

When exotic manifestations are encouraged, people can actually
get a religious high from jerking, vibrating, screaming or acting
intoxicated. (I have even been around people who writhed as if in
pain, or made sexual noises—thinking this was a legitimate
spiritual experience.) But emotional euphoria doesn’t guarantee a
heart change. The person who is bucking like an untamed bronco
in a church service would benefit more from sitting still and reading
the Bible for an hour. When we put bizarre behavior on the platform
we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread..

3. Beware of hype and exaggeration.Our hearts are crying out
today for a genuine move of God. We want the real deal. We’ve
read about the Great Awakenings of the past and we long to see
our nation overcome by a wave of repentance. The church is in a
backslidden state, and our nation has rebelled against God. We
are desperate!

In our longing for a holy visitation, however, we must be careful not
to call the first faint breeze of the Spirit a full-fledged revival. If we do
that, we are setting people up for disappointment when they realize it may not
be what we blew it up to be.

Some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has
created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to
“Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like
popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history.

Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—
and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are
experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran,
China and India. We have a long way to go before we experience
their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord.

I am rejoicing over all the reported healings at the Lakeland
meetings. Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles
and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed
Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who
saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied
later crucified the Son of God.

It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who
ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God,
confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and
evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the
transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.
-J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.

sermonindex May 15, 2008

Wow... when Charisma magazine starts to use discernment and questioning... you [b]know[/b] there's a problem!

Krispy

sermonindex May 15, 2008

Wow... when Charisma magazine starts to use discernment and questioning... you know there's a problem!

Yes. They just featured the Lakeland movement on the front page and now the next issue they are bashing it kindly!

sermonindex May 15, 2008


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Wow... when Charisma magazine starts to use discernment and questioning... you [b]know[/b] there's a problem!

Krispy

Man Krispy aren't you glad God gave us His Word and the Spirit to understand it.

I haven't read about EMMA. I have read about Michael and Gabriel though.
moe

F
Fuegodedios May 15, 2008

yeah this is a amazing. I have never heard of the charisma magazine saying something like this. I remembered what Jesus said in matthew 24 in the opening lines when he said. Make sure no one deceives you for many will come in my name saying I am the christ. I thank God for this site and brothers and sisters like yourself. May God bless you all

sermonindex May 15, 2008

Well we've been praying for some discernment for people concerning this. I thank God that we have some encouragement here. Let's keep on praying for our brother that they will be plucked out of this pit!!!

A
AbideinHim May 15, 2008

Lee Grady's article in Charisma magazine is the most balanced article that I have read on this website on the subject. He is proving all things and holding fast to that which is good. That is the problem with Andrew Strom and many heresy hunters. They only see what is wrong with people and movements, and they fail to see the good. I would say that the ones that have been saved and healed at these meetings would not agree with many of the criticisms of Todd Bentley.

I agree with Coley that we ought to keep praying for our brother in the areas where he is deceived. None of us are beyond deception, and if we think that we are then we are already deceived.

May the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth and give us discernment, and may we be delivered from a critical faultfinding spirit.

H
hmmhmm May 15, 2008

Act 13:27 "For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.


So today we have many who dont hear, and to say there is some good in it is like say there is some good in cancer to.

[i].....Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [/i] 1Co 5:6


Everyone need flee from this counterfeit revival


[i]Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.[/i]

Joh 12:35

sermonindex May 15, 2008

That is the problem with Andrew Strom and many heresy hunters. They only see what is wrong with people and movements, and they fail to see the good.

Wellll... thats kinda like looking for something eat in a dumpster behind a McDonalds. Sure, you might find a pickles thats ok to eat, but you have to immerse yourself in the garbage to get to it.

You do not understand what scripture is saying when it says to "hold fast to that which is good". God is [b]not[/b] telling us that we should ignore gross heresy, and look for the good in everything.

In fact, scripture [b]commands[/b] us to "mark and avoid" false teachers. Check it out:

[b]Romans 16:17[/b] [i]Now I beseech you, brethren, [b]mark them[/b] which cause divisions and offenses [b]contrary to the doctrine[/b] which ye have learned; and [b]avoid them[/b].[/i]

It doesnt say "read their books and gleen the good stuff...", or another favorite among some, "eat the meat and spit out the bones".

No, scripture NEVER one time makes that suggestion. Scripture is clear to mark and avoid those who are teaching heresy. Scripture is repleat with references of being seperated unto God... and thats not just seperate from what we consider the world to be, but also to seperate ourselves from those who teach heresies.

[b]2 John 1:10-11[/b] [i]If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.[/i]

I would say that the ones that have been saved and healed at these meetings would not agree with many of the criticisms of Todd Bentley.

I dont know that anyone has truly been healed... where is the medical evidence? So far there are no medically documented healings.

And as for those who have been saved... truly saved... they couldnt possibly be mature enough in the Lord, or knowledgable of scripture to know whether this "event" is of God or not. It's rediculous to assert that they would be.

may we be delivered from a critical faultfinding spirit.

Funny... Paul went after the false teachers of his time with much tenacity, and even named their names for all people to read for 2,000 years. I guess in your book Paul had a critical faultfinding spirit? I beg to differ... the Spirit he had was the Holy Spirit, and the words Paul wrote were the Holy Spirits.

Paul set the example for how we are to handle false teachings and teachers... and it wasnt the way you suggest. Your way is spiritually naive and dangerous.

Krispy

sermonindex May 15, 2008


KrispyKrittr wrote:

Wellll... thats kinda like looking for something eat in a dumpster behind a McDonalds. Sure, you might find a pickles thats ok to eat, but you have to immerse yourself in the garbage to get to it.
Krispy

Watch it now, if you get off on someone getting into the McDonalds dumpster for a pickle, I may have make a post about McDonalds trying to become a dumpster. I may go off about those PINK arches they have in their COMPANY plans and GO OFF ON them giving money to the homosexual movement, you know how I am about getting off the thread Krispy. 8-)

sermonindex May 15, 2008

I may go off about those PINK arches they have in their COMPANY plans and GO OFF ON them giving money to the homosexual movement, you know how I am about getting off the thread Krispy.

yea... I always wondered about the Hamburgler!

Seriously tho... My last post was a bit harsher than I intended it to be. I can see how someone would think I was being snide. I didnt mean at all for it to come out that way.

Krispy

sermonindex May 15, 2008

I didn't have no problem with what you posted, about false teachers and Bentley. I agree , the only point I have is, it is like what you said about telling a Christians who to vote for, they should know that already if they are Christians!!

C
Compton May 15, 2008

the only point I have is, it is like what you said about telling a Christians who to vote for, they should know that already if they are Christians!!

I normally would agree Moe...but unfortunately most Christians today are so open minded that their brains fall out. This is what happens when we elevate our own 'words from God' to the actual Word of God.

Along these lines, I have to offer here that I am just as weary towards the 'discernment' of critics, as I am of the lack of discernment in the Lakeland revival.

The remonstrance we need against false prophets does not come from discernment of a trusted 'true prophet', but from scriptures. (As you know!)

MC

D
davym May 15, 2008

I thought that post was spot on Krispy. A good analysis.

I got a text message tonight from a friend asking me whether I wanted to go to a service in his home town. He said the speaker was anointed with the Florida revival anointing. (This is in Northern Ireland friends so this thing is spreading). I politely declined and told my brother to watch himself. Meanwhile I thought to myself, would it not be better to go and hear a speaker who was anointed by [b]God[/b]?!

The thing about this whole thing that gets me is this - This 'movement' will end in tears, of that I have no doubt. People will suffer. This can't be a revival because there is no conviction of sin. It will therefore fade out and those involved will become disillusioned and Todd Bentley will be nowhere to be seen to help them. Only Christ (through His church) will be able to help them. But they'll want nothing to do with God or His church after the Lakeland experience. And Satan scores his victory.

It's time to stop defending this nonsense. The word of God is clear in its denunciation of it as Krispy and others have pointed out.

[i]There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 14:12[/i]


sermonindex May 15, 2008


Compton wrote:
the only point I have is, it is like what you said about telling a Christians who to vote for, they should know that already if they are Christians!!

I normally would agree Moe...but unfortunately most Christians today are so open minded that their brains fall out. This is what happens when we elevate our own 'words from God' to the actual Word of God.

MC


I think you are right, I agree, should know, but don't know. Ever learning but never coming. Amen

N
narrowpath May 15, 2008

Wellll... thats kinda like looking for something eat in a dumpster behind a McDonalds. Sure, you might find a pickles thats ok to eat, but you have to immerse yourself in the garbage to get to it.

Welllll said.

Remember that Satan always mixes truth, half-truths and lies to deceive his people.
Of course they will touch a bit on repentance as long as it is not too serious. They may even mention the cross as long as it is somehow historic and does not emphasize on dying to self.

The bible says that they will perform real miracles, signs and healings, yet they are not sent by the Lord. Bileam prophecied accurately about Israel, yet he was after selfish gain at their dysmal.

Jude 11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

The mechanics of deception is to cloak the false in truth so that you can swallow it.

It is commendable that Charisma publishes a note of caution, but I think it does not go far enough to protect the gullable from becoming entangled in this movement.

I also want to take the opportunity to appeal to the discerning people here and elsewhere about the way we handle discernment.

Being given discernment by God is not yet a virtue in it self. Lashing out against the false and trashing it does not help a single soul to come out of it.
We have to love more.
We have to DEMONSTRATE what it means to be really filled with the Holy Spirit, not just condemn the false.
Deceived people get very irritated when you bombard them full throttle about their error.
You have to take them step by step, and wait how God leads you.
Again it is Jude who says:

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

narrowpath
(currently in Tehran, they haven't blocked this site here, PTL and shhhh)

sermonindex May 16, 2008


We have to love more.
We have to DEMONSTRATE what it means to be really filled with the Holy Spirit, not just condemn the false.
Deceived people get very irritated when you bombard them full throttle about their error.
You have to take them step by step, and wait how God leads you.
Again it is Jude who says:

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

narrowpath
(currently in Tehran, they haven't blocked this site here, PTL and shhhh)


I agree we have to love more when giving truth but giving the truth to a deceived lost person and allowing the Holy Spirit to take the Word of God and convict is the greatest love of one can have. A deceived lost person can never get to the cross until they realize how deceived they have been all their life and realizing how helpless they are without HIS grace and mercy. If we act in away that is to trival, will appear that we are comfortable with a lie or sin and we act in a way as though we are just really laid back when talking to them about their ignorance?

I would say the liars got racked over the coals pretty well in Jude.
Jude 12-13

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
KJV

C
crsschk May 16, 2008

Along these lines, I have to offer here that I am just as weary towards the 'discernment' of critics, as I am of the lack of discernment in the Lakeland revival.

Agree, something of a contorted straw man or an unbalanced balancing act. Glad to hear Grady coming closer to some discernment but it is still playing to both 'sides'. This is also the editor of the same magazine and the same newsletter\\email "Streams of Revival" that produces an endless stream of 'prophetic' utterances from a variety of imaginative minds just "What the Lord is doing". They are of such a vague variety that they could apply next week, next year of two thousand years hence and they would still mean absolutely nothing. They know not what they speak nor what the Lord is doing in any form or fashion. But it just keeps on coming, keeps on being presented "as so".

The trouble with this is to put just such a balance on it all, it gives credence to those doubts that shouldn't be suppressed, anyone who has been in the clutches of these sorts of things knows, once they begin to overcome that impulse that there is a denying of the conscience. Unfortunately it is just as easy to continue to suppress while being enamored with these animal spirit or fleshly reasonings, the natural man having his fill and his 'fun'. There is the danger point, to either succumb or to resist.

For some of us it took a great deal more time and pain to come to our senses. For others ... they become entrenched and the longer it goes on the more difficult it is to 'have ears to hear'.

There are so many repercussions and ramifications, I don't know what amount of tears could convince ...


[i]Edit: Could but pray that the whole of this be read, but if anything, at least Chapter 10, it speaks to this matter so remarkably[/i];

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23284&post_id=185246&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=183705&forum=34#185246]The Voice of the Prophets ~ Sparks[/url]

sermonindex May 16, 2008

I do agree with that. He is playing both sides but I was encouraged, to a degree, he has acknowledged the side that has been speaking against this. He's the editor of a magazine that many of the people in this movement subscribe too so there is a lot of pressure for him to be subtle in the introduction...not to mention there is money involved with sales of the magazine.

I don't condone this at all, I'm merely making an observation. To me someone who was moving in the conviction of the Holy Spirit and has a piercing revelation into a false movement would forsake all (magazine subscriptions...money etc) and come out against it like Luther against the Catholic Church (former Catholic here).

T
Talkn2u May 16, 2008

Todd Bentley has become a topic recently in a small circle of people that I know.
I was unaware of him and unaware of this "revival"
I googled Todd Bentley and I clicked on to UTube's interview with Todd Bentley and a "supposed" prophet named Bob Jones (NOT of BJU).
The interview was 25 minutes in length.
It took literally seconds to recognize this as false.
I then put it to the "Test" ...
I listened to the interview in its entirety.
Never once did I hear the Name of Jesus proclaimed.
Never once was the attention directed to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's Life, Blood, Death, Resurrection, Atoning Power, or the Cross.
Never once were listeners admonished to acknowledge sin in their lives, come to Jesus and repent.
The interview merely focused upon "supposed" manifestations of "god"... and going up to the third heaven etc...
It sounded new age and mystical to me.

In the Cover Letter of an issue of the ElijahList
I read about these revivals in Florida and then going on to Albany Oregon.
One statement encouraged us to come and grab the anointing there and then go get some more in Oregon.
Upon reading that I began to weep and tell the Lord I was sorry that the Church of Jesus Christ is being portrayed in such foolishness.

When we seek out manifestations above the Persons of the GodHead, we are off track. That is what I believe.

Maybe this is out of context but as I was reading that article on ElijahList and watching the video interview, I could not help but think of Luke 11:29 where Jesus calls them a perverse/wicked generation because they are looking for a sign.
And
in a way that is how I see those that "run after" these stange things. It is almost as tho they are saying they must "see something grandiose" to believe.

As in I Kings 19:12...we are to listen for and listen to "the still small voice"

Please do not misunderstand me, I do realize that some are young and immature Christians who are seeking Truth yet can be easily deceived. They are who I am fighting FOR...speaking Truth TO.

My anger and agony of heart is against those who carry these deceptive measures and attribute them to God; causing confusion in the hearts and minds of the Sheep.

Praise God that He WILL be glorified and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!!!


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