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Let Freedom Ring

sermonindex May 19, 2008

Freedom

I felt the rush of air rising, catching my wings as I ascended higher and higher
through the clouds. Suddenly the mountain top appeared, rising majestically,
resting on a sea of gray.The mountain trembled and the thunder clapped and the "Rock," said, " go." I flapped my wings and soon the mountain was far behind as I flew over rivers and
valley's and great forests of pine. Then I came across a great assembly of men gathered together on a bleak and desolate moor as the rain began to fall and the wind howled in anguished anticipation. Words of freedom echoed up to the sky above. Will a man die for freedom? How many men have spilled their blood and hastened their souls to eternal damnation for that which is not even a shadow. And the men fought and died not knowing that it is not in the winning or the losing, neither can that which they seek be attained by knife or sword. I flapped my wings and suddenly the mists of time rolled back, back, back unto the dawning of a different age. Below me, another assembly of men, angry men. These men were not fighting for freedom, they were seeking to destroy it. They shouted,"crucify Him, crucify Him," and freedom hung in the balance. And all of hell’s fury cheered as the sky grew dark and the lightening flashed and the earth stood still in utter dismay. Would the sun ever rise in the sky again, or had darkness won the day? Then after three days and three nights, from a sea of darkness and gloom, rose majestically, a pure white standard that shattered the darkness forever. Now the white flag signifies surrender, when we surrender our life's to Jesus, we gain victory from the jaws of defeat and the darkness is destroyed forever.

As a man born in Scotland, there is no more emotive issue than the one of freedom. I was raised with myth and legend and folklore about freedom. Our history is replete with heroes of the cause , standing up against injustice and fighting the good fight. Even if it meant your life, it was better to die on the bloody battlefield than to live a life of oppresion and slavery. This is such a powerful motivating force and many men have been inspired to pick up the sword and go to battle in the name of "Freedom." Yet, what were they really fighting for? What doed freedom mean in the heavenly realms and to the warrior of Christ?

Jesus is our victory, in Jesus our Lord we find true Freedom. The Scriptures say that He who the Son sets free is free indeed. This majestic freedom rises high above all earthly gained freedom. If men could attain freedom then Christ died in vain. How free was our brother the Apostle Paul when he languished in the deep?

What about Peter and John as the lashes tore the skin from their back? What about our brother Stephen as the cruel stones destroyed his earthly body? I say that they were as free as the birds in the sky, no, so much freer than they. For the birds are as free as the sky in which they fly, our freedom ascends to the very throne of the Almighty God.

In the deepest darkest dungeons, chained to the walls, we are the light that penetrates and destroys the darkness, we are the salt of the earth. If true freedom could be granted or taken away by men then it would not be the freedom of
Calvary. The gentiles busy themselves with earthly things, buying and selling, gaining and losing and for needs sakes we too must walk amongst them. And yet, we are a brotherhood, a Royal Priesthood sent to shine that light of Calvary's freedom into every corner of the earth. We are called to be a counter culture, not a sub-culture.

The true Christian is in the world but not of it. The fact is that our citizenship is
not of this world. Whether God chooses us to be born into Communist China, or Capitalist America, maybe Socialist Germany, it matters not. Perhaps we will be born under a monarchy, perhaps under democracy, maybe dictatorship, again, it is of little consequence. For we are not citizens of the world, we are indeed,
ambassadors. We represent a kingdom that is, yet is not, yet is still to come.

As representatives, we will live peaceably and quietly wherever we are sent. To become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent is to depart from our mission and is a tactic of the enemy. For we do not battle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, our weapons are not the weapons of the world for we fight the darkness with our light. We overcome evil with love, the love of Christ which is the power of the universe. If we are engaged in this war,
the unseen war, then to entangle ourselves with the affairs of this world is to be
AWOL(absent without official leave)

We are soldiers in the army of the Lord. The war that we are engaged in never ends, there can be no peace until our Lord returns with a Trump, with a shout of Triumph. Until then, let us go about the business of Him who sent us. As Ambassadors, we represent Him and His Word, not human philosophy. Just as the early church was not involved in wars, nor politics, then neither should we. We must be like the early church, speaking boldly and without fear, the Truth in love. If this gets us in trouble, then so be it.

Many voices would engage the priesthood in "fighting for our rights." As Christians we are not shackled by rights. For rights are given and rights are taken away, yet our freedom cannot be touched. We will take the injury and go the extra mile with our enemies. If we are fired from our jobs for mentioning His name, or
carrying the Word, then let us glorify in Him that we are counted worthy to suffer for His names sake. Let shame fall upon those who reproach because we love them when they despise us and treat us cruelly and unfairly. What greater cruelty that the Son of God hanging on a tree? And yet here is our perfect example , "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Peter sought to take measures against this and was severely rebuked. Peter would even be willing to die to save the life of Jesus and drew the sword and attacked. Yet Jesus had a different way. Peter was not so willing to die for a Lord that was about to be mocked, tortured humiliated and killed. We are so willing to fight for our rights, our dignity, our heritage, our culture, our way of life, our morals, and
yet we are not willing to die to the flesh in humility. We are not willing to embrace injustice, being wronged, unfair treatment. We give as good as we get, if our enemy takes us to court, then we take him to court.

As Christians, we are called to follow the laws of the land, unless they compel us to violate Scripture. When the Holy Spirit wrote these teachings through our brother Paul, the Emperor of the time was Nero. Nero would dip our brothers and sisters in oil and suspend them upside down and set them ablaze to light up his
dinner parties at night. Do you suffer that kind of injustice? Is your injustice worse than that? Should the Christians of that day formed an army or worked feverishly in the political realm to overthrow him? Not at all, and they did not.

They engaged the enemy on the Spiritual level. Men who are not Spiritual will detest this view. For ultimately men of the world want to determine their own fate. The Royal Priest does not concern himself with this. For his fate is in the hands of God. The steps of a righteous man are ordered of God, the man in rebellion will order his own steps and make up his own rules and will ultimately violate Scripture to accommodate his own will.

Let each Royal Priest be bearers of the light, let us set aside all that hinders us from following Him and leading others to Him. Let us bask in the revelation and realization of our Freedom. When we know Jesus , the politics of this world will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace. Fight the good fight of faith and in all things love your God, your neighbor and your enemies.


sermonindex May 19, 2008

Yes my friend you are right on. Jesus gives that desire for freedom. We can read about it as the Israelites communed with God and the fire by might cloud by day. We can read about there failures and their victories and get a pretty good picture.

sermonindex May 19, 2008

Those who genuinely know Christ are always moving towards full acceptance and realisation of the freedom that has been wrought for them........Frank

P
pastorfrin May 19, 2008

]

As representatives, we will live peaceably and quietly wherever we are sent. To become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent is to depart from our mission and is a tactic of the enemy. For we do not battle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, our weapons are not the weapons of the world for we fight the darkness with our light. We overcome evil with love, the love of Christ which is the power of the universe. If we are engaged in this war,

We are soldiers in the army of the Lord. The war that we are engaged in never ends, there can be no peace until our Lord returns with a Trump, with a shout of Triumph. Until then, let us go about the business of Him who sent us. As Ambassadors, we represent Him and His Word, not human philosophy. Just as the early church was not involved in wars, nor politics, then neither should we. We must be like the early church, speaking boldly and without fear, the Truth in love. If this gets us in trouble, then so be it.


Wonderful writing Brother Frank,

I pray to the Lord everyday for all men to desire this Freedom.

Whom the Son makes free is free yes free indeed.

Thank You for this, your timing has made me to soar far above all my troubles.

In His Love
pastorfrin

sermonindex May 20, 2008

I am so blessed to know that the words that the Holy Spirit laid on my heart enabled you to soar above all your troubles. His presence, His Word, His truths are the secret hiding place of those going through trials. If you have many trials brother, then something is coming up, God bless you .........Frank

C
ccchhhrrriiisss May 20, 2008

Hi appolus…

I began writing this yesterday, but I had to leave before posting it. Anyway, I appreciate the essence of what you are saying about spiritual liberty. Our lives are to be spent with the knowledge of the freedom that is afforded to us in Christ Jesus our Lord. This liberty can help us rise above the cares of this world – especially during times of trouble or hardship. This liberty can help us sing while nursing our wounds in a prison cell (like Paul and Silas) or proclaim “[i]All is well[/i]” in the face of death (like the widow woman to Elisha in 2nd Kings chapter 4). Like a soldier in boot camp who endures the trials and hardships of the experience because he desires to please his commanding officers – this “liberty” is the a liberty of knowing that these light and momentary afflictions are temporary. In fact, this entire life is fleeting when compared with the vastness of eternity.

I agree that we are not to be entangled by the affairs of this world. But I disagree to the extent of what this entanglement can be interpreted to consist of. Indeed, the Scriptures in II Timothy chapter 2 warns us about the entanglements with “the affairs of this life.” It says:


[b]2 Timothy 2[/b]
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3 [u]Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ[/u].
4 [u]No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier[/u].
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

When reading this passage in context, it appears that the “affairs” of this life that Paul is speaking about are the hardships that we face (verse 3). Verse 4 is the oft-quoted passage about how soldiers (or those who go to war) do not “[i]entangleth himself with the affairs of this life[/i].” Why? So “[i]that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier[/i].” This reminds me about how Jesus endured the cross and despised its shame “…[i]for the joy that was set before him[/i]” (Hebrews 12:2). Regardless, the idea that our minds should be “set upon things that are above” (rather than Earthly things) is an important concept. But what is the extent or limits of our “entanglement” with this world? Are we to separate ourselves from every physical or natural form of “entanglement with the affairs of this life?” Are there any responsibilities that we have that might still exist given this knowledge?

We are certainly citizens of an Eternal Kingdom. We are subjects of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Our ultimate desire is to please our King and to carry out His will in our lives. This is the marching orders and heartfelt passion of the children of God. This is the heart behind every decision that we make. Christ is our ultimate motivation. We are constantly thinking of the Lord in everything that we say and do. Everything that we do is for the glory of God. When we exercise, it is because our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. When we labor, it is to fulfill the requirement to provide for our families, those in need and to further the Gospel. When we read a newspaper, our thoughts are on the nature and status of a world that was created by God. Every decision that we make is made with the understanding of the eternal consequences.

What are the “affairs of this life” spoken about in this passage? Do they include ANYTHING that is done in this world? Consider this from I Corinthians chapter 7:


[b]I Corinthians 7[/b]
32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 [u]But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world[/u], how he may please his wife.
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: [u]but she that is married careth for the things of the world[/u], how she may please her husband.

At first, this passage from I Corinthians chapter 7 seems to contradict the previous passage from II Timothy chapter 2. But God does not contradict Himself. It is my belief that the Scriptures clearly indicate the preeminence of Eternal matters over earthly matters. However, there are things that are still required of us in this Earth. We must work. We must provide for our families. We must support the work of the Lord. We must consider those who are in need. We must be good “neighbors.” We must pay our taxes. We must submit to authority. We should not be in debt. All of these things can seemingly be considered the “affairs of this life.”

While in high school, our family moved to Tennessee. There is a large Amish community in central Tennessee. I was able to speak with several of these wonderful individuals about many of their beliefs. They physically separate themselves from the community because they feel that this is the separation spoken about in Romans chapter 12. They do not divulge much in “worldly affairs” because of the manner in which they interpret II Timothy chapter 2. While these individuals were extremely devout, they also dismissed anyone else who disagreed with their doctrinal views about “separation.” “[i]A lack of regard for this type of[/i][i]holiness[/i],’” one young Amish man explained, “[i]reflects a heart that is tainted by a love for the world[/i].”

The Amish admit that they are required to involve themselves with some worldly affairs due to the laws of the governing authority (the state and the United States). They must pay taxes on certain items. They must recognize the legality of their land deeds. They must educate their children until a certain age. They must add lights and reflectors to their horse and buggies. They must follow the road/driving laws. They must even sell things from their homes in order to raise money needed for other items. However, they do not consider themselves citizens of the United States of America. They see themselves only as citizens of Heaven.

Ironically, the Amish have rules that establish the conduct and regulations of their community. There are rules (or laws) about dress, speech, propriety, and involvement in earthly things. A group of elders are set up to carry out those laws. An inability to follow the legal conduct of the Amish community can result in a democratic expulsion of the “sinner.” In afterthought, the Amish community probably closely resembles the rules of the Mayflower Compact, the first written “Constitution” in the New World. And this is all done to avoid worldly entanglements due to their entirely heavenly “citizenship.”

Paul was certainly a citizen belonging to our Eternal God and King. Yet Paul also declared himself a citizen of Rome. He did this to avoid an unlawful beating in Acts 22:23-25. Rome was (and still is) one of the most pagan and evil empires upon the Earth. When asked if he was a Roman citizen, Paul replied, “[i]Yea[/i]” (Acts 22:27). Here is Paul – the writer of 2/3 of the New Testament and the Apostle to the world – declaring his Roman citizenship! Not only that, but Paul later used the Roman legal system (the SAME legal system that had Jesus crucified) to “appeal unto Caesar” in Acts 25:10-12:


[b]Acts 25:10-12[/b]
10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, [u]where I ought to be judged[/u]: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. [u]I appeal unto Caesar[/u].
12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.
Why did Paul use this “right” as a Roman to “appeal unto Caesar?” Because Jesus instructed him in Acts 23:11, “[i]Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome[/i].” Paul did not need to make such a legal appeal using his right as provided by Rome. In fact, Agrippa later said to Festus, “[i]This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.[/i]” (Acts 26:32). Why, then, did Paul do this? He did this to bring the Gospel to Rome and to the house of Caesar. In fact, the Book of Acts closes with Paul under “house arrest” but proclaiming the Gospel in perfect liberty:

[b]Acts 28:30-31[/b]
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

And why should this not surprise us? For where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty!

As a man born in Scotland, there is no more emotive issue than the one of freedom. I was raised with myth and legend and folklore about freedom. Our history is replete with heroes of the cause , standing up against injustice and fighting the good fight. Even if it meant your life, it was better to die on the bloody battlefield than to live a life of oppresion and slavery. This is such a powerful motivating force and many men have been inspired to pick up the sword and go to battle in the name of "Freedom." Yet, what were they really fighting for? What doed freedom mean in the heavenly realms and to the warrior of Christ?

What were they fighting for? Were they fighting for a kingdom in this world – or were they fighting for a far more meaningful concept? What would prompt a man to risk his life to fight for a cause?

Your post is evidence that you live in a relatively free society. In some nations, you would have been executed for publishing these thoughts. After your execution (or perhaps, before), your words would have either been removed or altered to reflect disdain or reproach for Christ. So what gave you the freedom and liberty to declare these things? And how is it that you are able to speak so freely about your beliefs?

For many people, this sort of freedom is a cause worth promoting (and even [i]defending[/i]). It is very easy for us to complain about such a notion of “fighting” for something. Yet we often willing to fully enjoy the spoils of such fighting. In this case, we enjoy many personal liberties that were unheard of times past. We do not face persecution like our brethren in closed nations. But the fact remains that there are people today who will die for simply speaking about their faith in Jesus Christ. In North Korea, believers are often tortured for their faith. Some of them have even watched their children hanged for the Name of Jesus. This is true in many parts of the world. In Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia – people live daily under the oppression of persecution.

Richard Wurmbrand, the founder of [i]Voice of the Martyrs[/i], spoke about the need for government intervention. He testified to Congress about the need for the US Government to intervene on behalf of the persecuted Church. When he came to an “anti-war” rally during the 1960s, he was arrested for yanking the bullhorn out of the hands of the pacifists and declaring a need for intervention on behalf of persecuted Christians in communist nations (like Vietnam). Why? Brother Wurmbrand still had relatives and neighbors who were being tortured and murdered for the cause of Christ behind the Iron Curtain.

Today, the Iron Curtain is but a shadow of what it once was. People in former Soviet nations have more liberty to evangelize, preach and openly offer worship unto the Lord. Yet there are still barriers and “curtains” of opposition to such liberty. Just miles offshore of Florida, an oppressive regime is in power in Cuba. The Church there is praying for liberty. In Iran, Pakistan, Yemen and many other Islamic nations, believers are praying for liberty. Christians in some Asian nations are often arrested for their faith. A website like [i]SermonIndex[/i] would result in the death sentence. In those nations, men like Greg and many of SI members would be publicly executed for the “crime” of proclaiming the truth that is found only in Christ Jesus.

In America and other Western nations, we don’t currently face persecution like this. As a result, many of us prefer to remain physical or verbal isolationists in regard to such liberties both here and abroad (including those regarding faith). We claim that we don’t believe in any sort of “entanglement” with the “affairs of this world” – as if speaking out to our legislators and elected government officials, voting or interacting with politics were a [i]bad[/i] thing. Yet we are all “entangled” in other forms of government and political participation (paying taxes, tax exemptions and tax breaks, roads, tax rebates, passports, driver’s licenses, business licenses, financial aid, grants, tax exempt status, government guaranteed home loans, government fixed interest rates, home schooling rights, etc…). When I read Acts chapters 22-26, I can’t help but think that Paul was attempting to reason with the government officials regarding the truths about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. While he wasn’t trying to pass legislature, he was certainly trying to influence the hearts of those officials (Acts 26:24-30).

I suppose that one of the reasons that I respond to these sorts of threads lay in the fact that they are often presented as if they are undeniable truths. While they are often filled with many wonderful and legitimate truths, they are also mingled with the persuasion of the poster. There is no consensus in Scripture to make me believe that a Christian cannot vote or work in his/her community or nation in an “official” manner (anything from a City Engineer, City Planner, Mayor, etc… to the President of the United States or a Justice on the Supreme Court). While I understand that some would see this as being “entangled in the affairs of this world” – I just don’t see this as the “entanglement” that Paul was speaking about in 2 Timothy. If there is a proposition on the ballot that would outlaw some great evil like abortion (which will be a proposition on the ballot in South Dakota in November) or homosexual marriage (which will likely be a proposition on the ballot in California in November) or the right to “homeschool” your children – then why cannot I cast my voice in the matter? Personally, I choose to cast a vote – not because I care about this temporary country more than my eternal country – but because I see it as an opportunity to help and care for my family and neighbors. The nation might be “[i]going to Hell in a handbasket[/i],” but I want to influence this nation out of a heart that loves God and my neighbor.

I am involved simply out of a love for my family and neighbors. I don’t think that this nation is any more loved by God than any other nation – but I do believe that this nation gives a better amount of liberty than most others. Since we have a sort of dual citizenship (a temporary citizenship on Earth and an eternal citizenship in Heaven), I choose to exercise my right to voice my opinion here. I don’t think that this is by any means “bowing my knee” to the world or its worldly system any more than Daniel, Joseph or Paul attempting to influence the legislation in their time and circumstances.

I suppose that the thing that I am most trying to convey is that there are some of us who do not see certain forms of interaction as a violation of the “entangled with the affairs of this life” precept mentioned by Paul in II Timothy chapter 2. Some of us feel the “liberty” to vote. Some of us would feel the liberty to physically (or through a vote) defend a family member or neighbor from harm. I do not think that this matter is decisive enough from the Scriptures to state that any such involvement is a “tactic of the enemy.” Otherwise, Paul was deceived by such a tactic (citing his Roman citizenship and “appealing unto Caesar”). Yet we know that it was Christ who instructed Paul to take the Gospel to Rome. Paul did so by using the political/legal system of the world. It is my belief that believers are permitted to voice their faith in votes and certain participation in order to shine as a light to this dark world. Is it possible to righteous and remain a soldier in the army of the world? We can read about Cornelius (a Centurion from the Italian regiment), who was considered “devout and God-fearing” (Acts 10:2-3) and whose prayers were heard by God and was even given a vision that was used to educate the Apostle Peter (Acts chapter).

As people still living for Jesus on this Earth, we are already involved in government interaction. We pay taxes, drive on government-built roads, eat government-regulated food, collect our tax rebate, lobby to have the right to “home school” our children, etc… Many of us even pray that believers around the world might have the same (or even better) opportunity to serve God outside of a secret. Many of us are praying (and even preaching) so that our nation does not fall into sin. Some of us are even praying for a healing in our land. I feel that my vote is simply offering my voice or opinion about the direction of things. I don’t believe that it is bowing my knee to the systems of this world. Rather, it is telling this world that I what I believe about certain things (including just who or what I think might be the better of two choices).

I appreciate the words of warning that are often posted here regarding the danger of engrossing one’s self into the affairs of this life. There is a danger of going so far as to concentrate on these earthly things and forgetting what is far more pressing and eternal. However, there could be a different outcome too. Is it possible that a complete lack of care could result in apathy? Could our decision not to voice ourselves be construed to be an embrace of lethargy or lawlessness regarding the decisions by authorities? Don’t get me wrong: I am not preaching that one MUST get involved. However, I suspect that many of us would get involved given the right circumstances. If the authorities threatened to take our children away because they accused us of “brainwashing” them with the Gospel – would we not react through involvement? There is currently a case in a southern state involving a woman and her daughter. I suspect that many of us would feel justified to resist any such measure that might result in the harm of our families or neighbors. Our votes are simply a means by which we can voice those concerns before they result in something that drastic. We simply don’t want social activists to redefine binding contract for the government (the Constitution) to suit their own social world view.

I remember reading about Melody Green's decision to get involved in the anti-abortion movement. She said that she simply could not remain silent as the slaughter of unborn children continued from the 1970s into the early 1980s. At the time, she printed a t-shirt that stated how 1.4 million children died each year due to abortions. She organized grassroots efforts to stop the abortion and educate the world and government just what the Bible says about it. It culminated with a petition signed by millions of Americans in which she presented this it to President Ronald Reagan. With Melody Green in the audience, President Reagan signed the "Emancipation Proclamation of Preborn Children." While this proclamation didn't have legal power, it affected the legislation of conservatives for years. Ironically, the number of abortions has decreased nearly every year since (even as the population has increased considerably during that same time). This has led to the rescue of millions of unborn children. Melody Green stated that she doesn't have any regrets for her involvement with Americans Against Abortion as it attempted to influence the legislation of this nation. Who knows? Perhaps she was accomplishing the affairs of Heaven as she operated within the affairs of a government of this world?


[b]John 17:15-19[/b]
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
:-)

sermonindex May 20, 2008

I read Ccchhhrrriiii reply with interest. Suprisingly enough, here is one of the more interesting quotes to me...

"I suppose that one of the reasons that I respond to these sorts of threads lay in the fact that they are often presented as if they are undeniable truths. While they are often filled with many wonderful and legitimate truths, they are also mingled with the persuasion of the poster."

First of all, I am glad that you deemed to reply to this sort of thread :) Sounds a tad arrogant. Any post on here is going to be mingled with the persuasion of the writer. Indeed, unless one claimed infallibility, which I do not, then that is the nature of writing. Your own post was 80% your own persuasion, which of course you are perfectly entitled to. When we have a fair exchange of ideas, you will have people who come to different conclusions. Of course one must be fully persuaded in what they belive in order to write with any kind of passion. This should not be a source of critisism, merely a source of dis-agreement.

I have often heard the "if you dont like it here you can go somewhere else," opinion. I have never found that very helpful. I do appreciate the fact that there are freedoms in the West. If I had to be rich or if I had to be poor, I would probably choose to have money because it is a lot better to be able to pay your bills than to not be able to. So, of course, if one could be free, in a political sense as opposed to being oppresed, then of course any normal human being would not choose to be oppresed.

Just as their is inherrent dangers in being wealthy(lack of dependence upon God, and a multitude of Scriptures to back that up) there is also inherrent dangers in political freedoms. The very thing that you said could lead to apathy,not being involved and being detached , I would say that there is far more apathy in a wealthy free society amongst Christians, than say in a plcae like China. Perhaps we disagree with the state of the Church in the West?

I would argue, and it is my opinion, that the state of the church in the West is a dire one. I would say that almost all of Europe is a post Christian society and that America is slowly but surely headed in that direction. I would further add that in places of opression, China for example, then we have a very lively undergound Church that is largely sold out to Christ. When there is a price to pay for our Christianity, it tends to weed out the "tares," to a great extent.

My own post has nothing to do with apathy and everything to do with being sold out to Christ. I think my main point was that rights that are fought for and attained by man, are not God given rights. What man gives man can take away. The freedom that I have in Christ cannot be touched.

I do not rely on these rights to share the Gospel or express my opinion. I heartily agree that my post and many of the posts on Sermonindex.net would not be allowed under certain regimes, and could possibly bring persecution, torture, or death. My point is, I follow the Holy Spirits leading, despite what one Government would say or not. While I would always try and live peaceably wherever I found myself, I would always follw the leading of the Lord and His Word.

If that leads to imprisonment, then so be it. I have heard many people argue, and I know many people who fight very hard for their political rights to express themselves because the notion of going to jail for Jesus horrifies them, so they wrap up "fighting for their rights," in a kind of "Godly," talk when in actual fact they are simply not sold out to the cause. My own post says that if a company says you cannot bring your Bible to work, then if the Lord led you to do that then you should do it. You have the freedom to do it, it would mean that you would lose your job though, many "Christians ,' are simply not willing to pay any kind of price.

It is an interesting subject. I am sure that many people hold passionate opinions on it, I appreciate that, I am not intimidated by that, one should be fully persuaded in what one belives...........Frank

sermonindex May 21, 2008


appolus wrote:
I read Ccchhhrrriiii reply with interest. Suprisingly enough, here is one of the more interesting quotes to me...

"I suppose that one of the reasons that I respond to these sorts of threads lay in the fact that they are often presented as if they are undeniable truths. While they are often filled with many wonderful and legitimate truths, they are also mingled with the persuasion of the poster."

First of all, I am glad that you deemed to reply to this sort of thread :) Sounds a tad arrogant. Any post on here is going to be mingled with the persuasion of the writer. Indeed, unless one claimed infallibility, which I do not, then that is the nature of writing. Your own post was 80% your own persuasion, which of course you are perfectly entitled to. When we have a fair exchange of ideas, you will have people who come to different conclusions. Of course one must be fully persuaded in what they belive in order to write with any kind of passion. This should not be a source of critisism, merely a source of dis-agreement.

I have often heard the "if you dont like it here you can go somewhere else," opinion. I have never found that very helpful. I do appreciate the fact that there are freedoms in the West. If I had to be rich or if I had to be poor, I would probably choose to have money because it is a lot better to be able to pay your bills than to not be able to. So, of course, if one could be free, in a political sense as opposed to being oppresed, then of course any normal human being would not choose to be oppresed.

Just as their is inherrent dangers in being wealthy(lack of dependence upon God, and a multitude of Scriptures to back that up) there is also inherrent dangers in political freedoms. The very thing that you said could lead to apathy,not being involved and being detached , I would say that there is far more apathy in a wealthy free society amongst Christians, than say in a plcae like China. Perhaps we disagree with the state of the Church in the West?

I would argue, and it is my opinion, that the state of the church in the West is a dire one. I would say that almost all of Europe is a post Christian society and that America is slowly but surely headed in that direction. I would further add that in places of opression, China for example, then we have a very lively undergound Church that is largely sold out to Christ. When there is a price to pay for our Christianity, it tends to weed out the "tares," to a great extent.

My own post has nothing to do with apathy and everything to do with being sold out to Christ. I think my main point was that rights that are fought for and attained by man, are not God given rights. What man gives man can take away. The freedom that I have in Christ cannot be touched.

I do not rely on these rights to share the Gospel or express my opinion. I heartily agree that my post and many of the posts on Sermonindex.net would not be allowed under certain regimes, and could possibly bring persecution, torture, or death. My point is, I follow the Holy Spirits leading, despite what one Government would say or not. While I would always try and live peaceably wherever I found myself, I would always follw the leading of the Lord and His Word.

If that leads to imprisonment, then so be it. I have heard many people argue, and I know many people who fight very hard for their political rights to express themselves because the notion of going to jail for Jesus horrifies them, so they wrap up "fighting for their rights," in a kind of "Godly," talk when in actual fact they are simply not sold out to the cause. My own post says that if a company says you cannot bring your Bible to work, then if the Lord led you to do that then you should do it. You have the freedom to do it, it would mean that you would lose your job though, many "Christians ,' are simply not willing to pay any kind of price.

It is an interesting subject. I am sure that many people hold passionate opinions on it, I appreciate that, I am not intimidated by that, one should be fully persuaded in what one belives...........Frank

If we had at least 50% of the American people with the attitude you wrote of having in Christ, we wouldn't be being facing the Godless stuff in America we are facing today. I think when we really get the nuts and blots laid out on the table, we may be closer in agreement than we all realize.

sermonindex May 21, 2008

I appreciate those words Moe. I believe that there are multiple reasons why Christianity in the West is in decline and why it is in such a state here in America too. Here is one reason to ponder.

Almost everyone I know that is totally sold out to Christ(not right wing religion) were born-again as adults(meaning over 21) We know that almost 90% of yong adults "lose," their faith during and after the College years. We also know that after the age of 18, the chances of coming to Christ in America is slim to none according to every stat I have read including Barna.

Here is my working theory, based on the reality of the situation(dire state of Christianity) and my own personal observation(lived in the Bible belt for 18 years) and my own personal experience (supposedly "gave my heart to the Lord" when I was nine) I belive that the vast majority of children in the United States who supposedly gave their hearts to the Lord, know nothing of Jesus. They are simply responding to what they believe is the right thing to do.

I belive that this has happened for at least a couple of generations, if not more. Its kinda like a guy starts a company and he has drive and ambition and he is completely sold out to the company that he starts. He makes a great success of the company and has children. He eventually retires and passes the company on to his child or children and he or they run the business into the ground. They do this because they were raised in ease and comfort and did not have the same drive and hunger that the father had for the company.

A great majority of the Churches today are pastored by Pastors who were raised in the Church. Does that preclude them all from being Christians? Absolutely not. But I will contend that a vast majority of them know nothing of the new birth. We must not be surprised at this. George Whitfield became infamous for making this claim. Ravenhill said that he belived that maybe 2% of Americans were Christians. So the claim is not a new one, but it does give us some insight as to why the Church in America seems to be lost to the right wing conservative(relgiously speaking) or the left wing craziness of supposed revivals in Florida.

The main problem being that the Christian leaders in this country are no Christians at all and therefore have no discernmenmt. So on the one hand you would have Copeland and his like, and on the other hand you would have Dobson and those guys. One end of the Christian spectrum to the other. And the truth is, they are all religious, for anything , apart from the new birth, is nothing, whether that manifests itself in Lakeland , Florida or Colorado Springs, Colorado. The truth will always lie with those who have genuinly experienced the new birth. They will be found in the "radical center," as coined by Fee.

Obviously I cannot prove anything that I have just written and it is my personal opinion based on what the Spirit communicates to me. It is open for agreement or disagreement, but whatever you belive, it is definately worth pondering.............Frank

sermonindex May 21, 2008


appolus wrote:

A great majority of the Churches today are pastored by Pastors who were raised in the Church. Does that preclude them all from being Christians? Absolutely not. But I will contend that a vast majority of them know nothing of the new birth. We must not be surprised at this. George Whitfield became infamous for making this claim. Ravenhill said that he belived that maybe 2% of Americans were Christians. So the claim is not a new one, but it does give us some insight as to why the Church in America seems to be lost to the right wing conservative(relgiously speaking) or the left wing craziness of supposed revivals in Florida.


Obviously I cannot prove anything that I have just written and it is my personal opinion based on what the Spirit communicates to me. It is open for agreement or disagreement, but whatever you belive, it is definately worth pondering.............Frank

.................................................
A new birth is the way only to God through Jesus, and many just have religion only. They talk a good talk, but no trust in him in anything. Never sold out, no whole hog Jesus, never made Jesus #1 in their life. If you look at the stats in today's church on giving, you can get a true picture on just how many are sold out to his Lordship. Narrow is the way. Peter and the rest left everything to follow him. You start talking about giving and you get called a Pharisee. The Bible says gives according to what has been decided in he heart. Yea how is the heart. Abraham gave 10% to God thousands of years before God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses. They say, we are not under the law, no we are under grace, what the law could not do grace did so much more. Many say Oh, yes I'm totally sold out to Jesus, but not with my money, tithing is Old Testament theology. Jesus said, where your treasure is, your heart is also, you cannot serve both God and money. God does not need our money, he owns everything anyway, even what he gives us. Most of these so-called Christan's talk a good talk, but have never experienced to joy of seeing the Lord supply their needs and being real in their life. I spent most of my life not knowing this truth either. Many deceived people are under the impression they are supplying for themselves. Their check is from their employer. It is, but God gave it to the employer, to give to us. God is the source and he has many resources. God will allow one to be blind and never see his provision if they so choose, and they will never know if they ignore His precepts. It takes alot of trust and confidence to believe He means what He says. I have always said, you can examine a man heart, if you were allowed to examine his check book register. It is not the actually giving that does anything, it is the action of giving in obedience, and thus that trust manifested. It shows that one has put their total trust in Him and His provision to supply. It is a matter of the heart. God sees the check bok register anyway, we are an open book to Him. Some preachers go off onto the prosperity gospel and go way to far. God supplies our needs and not our wants. If for some reason by his grace, He gives us more, it means he gives it ot us, for the reason of sharing it with others. If we don't share the abundance he gives us, he may just adjust it back down. This principle is true on all other spiritual things as well as money. Many want to talk about exercising ntheir spiritual gifts that they have received, but few want to talk about the spiritual gift of giving. I also wonder how many of the non-resistant movement is non-resistant to giving a portion of the money God gave them to the church.
We must examine all things. One may say, we must suffer for the cause of Christ. He could refuse to pay taxes and go to strait jail for the glory of God. Of course, one uses the passage "submit to those in authority" to allow him to pay the taxes to his advance his theology". The devil is smooth, but God's Word is much smoother if one will examine it.
edit: Having said all that, quiet frankly I will confess that I come up short giving Jesus all the honor and Glory he deserves in many ways. We all do. His grace is sufficient. He keeps in perfect peace those whose mind is stayed on him.
Thanks for the reply.
Moe

sermonindex May 21, 2008

HI Moe....I agree, money can be another identifying factor in determining what is and what is not. Although many who give their tithes are "respectable," members or participents of the church yet do not know the new birth. A changed life is the best way to determine the reality of someone's claim, a changed life, Christlikeness and love. Just as an aside, I was part of a church, many years ago, who never had a collection and would not allow a collection. Speakers would come and were not allowed to ask for a collection. That particular church grew from a mans basement to a 5000 member church , supporting 55 missionary families and having 15 full-time pastors. The premise was, that if you were genuinely born-again, you would give. So they simply had wooden boxes on the walls of the foyer and you put your money in there. They did not belive in "begging," for money. They preached once a year on how the Lord loved chearful givers. Its amazing how the Lord honered this. Hudson Taylor, the famous China missionary, had the same policy and God always provided......Frank

sermonindex May 21, 2008


appolus wrote:
HI Moe....I agree, money can be another identifying factor in determining what is and what is not. Although many who give their tithes are "respectable," members or participents of the church yet do not know the new birth. A changed life is the best way to determine the reality of someone's claim, a changed life, Christlikeness and love. Just as an aside, I was part of a church, many years ago, who never had a collection and would not allow a collection. Speakers would come and were not allowed to ask for a collection. That particular church grew from a mans basement to a 5000 member church , supporting 55 missionary families and having 15 full-time pastors. The premise was, that if you were genuinely born-again, you would give. So they simply had wooden boxes on the walls of the foyer and you put your money in there. They did not belive in "begging," for money. They preached once a year on how the Lord loved chearful givers. Its amazing how the Lord honered this. Hudson Taylor, the famous China missionary, had the same policy and God always provided......Frank


I see no difference in passing the plate and the wooden boxes on the wall, it is ones option either way. The church you alluded to, evidently had some hearts that were right and were born again. I have had the opportunity once to observe exactly who did and who didn't and have noticed the tithers always had a changed life, not perfection, but a heart bend toward Jesus compared to the ones who were slack in their giving. The one who has been forgiven of much, loves much. Some people feel were so good to before they were saved, they feel they were not forgiven of much. Kind of like the rich young ruler who went away sad. I am not saying the giving changed the life, but the changed life produced the giving.
Later Frank
love ya Brother

Mo

sermonindex May 25, 2008

Hi Mo......I agree with what you say. Ultimately, the genuine born again man or woman will do what is right. Although I am not a Calvinist, I agree with "Perseverance of the Saints." It is to those who overcome that the promises are made............Frank

C
ccchhhrrriiisss May 25, 2008

Hi appolus…


First of all, I am glad that you deemed to reply to this sort of thread :) Sounds a tad arrogant. Any post on here is going to be mingled with the persuasion of the writer. Indeed, unless one claimed infallibility, which I do not, then that is the nature of writing. Your own post was 80% your own persuasion, which of course you are perfectly entitled to. When we have a fair exchange of ideas, you will have people who come to different conclusions. Of course one must be fully persuaded in what they belive in order to write with any kind of passion. This should not be a source of critisism, merely a source of dis-agreement.

Brother, I apologize if you found my post as being a “tad arrogant.” That certainly wasn’t my intention, and I had hoped that it was evident by the content of the post itself. Apparently, this was not the case. In any event, I had hoped that the content of my post would have spoken for itself. Perhaps you could specifically address what you deemed to be “arrogant” rather than present it as a subtle slight based upon your own judgment about the intent the post as a whole.

You see, dear brother, the underlying issue that I have had with many threads here in the SermonIndex forums over the years has been with the statements of opinion, conclusion or persuasion that are made voiced in a manner as if they were FACT. It seems that little distinction is sometimes made between FACT and PERSUASION. I believe that there have been many conflicts in the SermonIndex forums that really boiled down to the interpretations of some regarding issues that are not abundantly clear from the Scriptures. Regarding the issues that are clear, we can and should be bold. But regarding those issues that are not completely spelled out by Scripture (at least, to our feeble minds), we should mingle our words with grace and patience.

We all come from various backgrounds, denominations (or non-denominations), experiences and levels of maturity. Most of us are not the same people that we were two or three years ago (or longer) in regard to our character and beliefs. We have changed as we have matured in our knowledge and relationship with Christ Jesus. Some people might be where we were (in levels of knowledge or maturity) several years ago. Others may be where we will be after several more years of walking with Christ. That doesn’t change the fact of who we are – a sincere follower of Jesus Christ.

It would probably be difficult to find two people at SermonIndex (or even within our own local congregation) who are completely unified in every specific issue. So how can we reach the “freedom” that comes from the unity of Christ? It may take us allowing for the grace and patience as we rejoice in what is true rather than by focusing on the small or less significant matters that divide the Body of Christ. I have visited churches that have disfellowshipped believers based upon a single doctrinal issue that is not entirely clarified by Scripture. How can we remain a “body” of Christ when we are so quick to amputate a member that we don’t think is functioning exactly as it should? While we may not always take part in the “official” excommunication of certain believers, we often do so by reaching a verdict with our minds.

As a point of reference, there are some believers here at SermonIndex who feel that they have a liberty – or freedom – to engage in some limited participation with what some would call the “affairs of this world” (although that label is certainly open for dispute). Some of us who truly love and know the Lord believe (at least, currently) that we can participate in voting, an elected office, or even the military. While I certainly understand how some believers might read the Scriptures and conclude that such participation is strictly forbidden, it doesn’t mean that all of us are of the same opinion. Furthermore, there is no universal conclusion on the matter as embraced by the Church (as there is in other matters – like those included in Hebrews chapter 6). This is when we are called to make a distinction, through grace and patience, regarding what is truth from what is a personal conclusion.

The purpose of my post within this thread was certainly not an attack upon your beliefs, words or opinions. Rather, it was simply an observation on some of the more subtle comments within your initial post. There have been some occasional threads and posts that have been almost “arrogant” in their proclamation of certain “evils” regarding the limits of our earthly involvement (such as voting). Every once in a while, some believers make it their mission to convey the belief (as though it were an undeniable truth) that any such involvement is downright impious. I don’t believe that your post was reflective of this sort of attitude. In fact, I agreed with almost everything in your initial post. But there were some elements that I thought were slight infusions of opinion mingled within a context of things that are implied to be inarguable facts.


“The fact is that our citizenship is not of this world.”

Compared with [b]Acts 22:27[/b]:
27 “Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.”


Do you understand why I wrote about a dual citizenship? One is temporary and one is Eternal. Paul, in Acts 22 stated that he was a citizen of Rome. Of course, he was first and foremost a citizen of Heaven. But he invoked this earthly citizenship to exempt himself from an unlawful beating (verse 25) and as a means to use his right as a Roman citizen – knowledgeable of Roman law – to “appeal unto Caesar” (Acts 25:10-12) in order to fulfill the command by Christ to take the Gospel to Rome (Acts 23:11).

To become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent is to depart from our mission and is a tactic of the enemy.

Do you understand what this implies? It is a different way of claiming (as a fact) that any of us who “become embroiled in the politics of wherever we are sent” are departing from our mission and have fallen into a “tactic of the enemy.” Yet Paul – not a resident of Jerusalem – became embroiled in the politics (via the judicial branch of government) where he was sent (by God). Paul, a citizen of Heaven, invoked his earthly citizenship in order to progress the Gospel. What if this happened today? What if a believer was arrested for preaching the Gospel in a town square? Should he invoke his earthly (American) citizenship and appeal his case to the Supreme Court? Or should he just back and leave it up to the “earthly affairs” to decide his fate? It seems to me that Paul (and perhaps, Christ) chose the former.

“As Christians we are not shackled by rights.”

Compared with [b]Acts 22:25[/b]:
25 “And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?”


Of course, we are not shackled by our rights. However, they are rights that are exerted by governing authorities that are established by God. Paul knew his “rights” and explained this to the centurion who was about to beat him. Currently, it is the right of a man of God in this nation to refuse to preside over a “holy matrimony” of homosexuals. However, homosexual activists are working to take away such a right that they say is based upon “bigotry” and a violation of the 14th Amendment. If they had their way – a preacher would be arrested under hypothetical “hate laws.” Right now, we can stand against the agenda of such activists by simple participation now in such matters. Otherwise, we might very much find ourselves in the future embroiled by such matters against our will.

Men who are not Spiritual will detest this view.

The steps of a righteous man are ordered of God, the man in rebellion will order his own steps and make up his own rules and will ultimately violate Scripture to accommodate his own will.


Do you see how this sounds? It seems like those who disagree with the extent of your post are “not spiritual” or in “rebellion.” While it is true that there are some “unspiritual” men (at least, who think that they are “unspiritual”) who involve themselves with politics or participation in this government of the people, is it expedient to claim that those who do are “unspiritual” or self serving “violators” of Scripture in regard to our “own will?” Is it possible that some of us who believe in certain limited forms of participation are just as spiritual and just as piously sincere as those who resolutely do not?

I have often heard the "if you dont like it here you can go somewhere else," opinion. I have never found that very helpful. I do appreciate the fact that there are freedoms in the West. If I had to be rich or if I had to be poor, I would probably choose to have money because it is a lot better to be able to pay your bills than to not be able to. So, of course, if one could be free, in a political sense as opposed to being oppresed, then of course any normal human being would not choose to be oppresed.

I have heard such things too. But that was not the nature of my post.

Just as their is inherrent dangers in being wealthy(lack of dependence upon God, and a multitude of Scriptures to back that up) there is also inherrent dangers in political freedoms. The very thing that you said could lead to apathy,not being involved and being detached , I would say that there is far more apathy in a wealthy free society amongst Christians, than say in a plcae like China. Perhaps we disagree with the state of the Church in the West?

I would argue, and it is my opinion, that the state of the church in the West is a dire one. I would say that almost all of Europe is a post Christian society and that America is slowly but surely headed in that direction. I would further add that in places of opression, China for example, then we have a very lively undergound Church that is largely sold out to Christ. When there is a price to pay for our Christianity, it tends to weed out the "tares," to a great extent.


I suspect that you are correct! There is a danger in becoming apathetic concerning the blessings of liberty. Blessed individuals tend to become careless of their blessings. I think that was what I was trying to convey earlier. We only have the ability to complain about things (well, at least more than once) because someone else fought for that freedom (both verbally and physically). Now free societies have some individuals who exercise that ability to complain and then claim that it is wrong to fight for any sort of freedom.

For the past school year, I have taught part-time at a public University. This semester, I asked my students about whether or not they voted in a recent school referendum. The school is proposing to increase tuition, fees, room and board with the possibility of the cost of one year of their education increasing quite a bit (approximately $4250 or more). Several of the major proposed fee increases must be approved by the student body. When I asked whether or not the students in my classes voted, only 2 of the students admitted that they did. When I asked why they didn’t vote, most of them said that they just didn’t care to “get involved.” This was reflected across our campus of about 6,000-7,000 students. Only about 900 students even bothered to vote over a period of a week. Ironically, all of the proposed fee increases passed – some by a total of just a few votes. As a PhD student who is ABD (all but dissertation), I understand how every dollar can matter in an increasingly volatile inflationary economy. I would be disappointed for my tuition and fees to be raised $45 – let alone $4500. Similarly, I am just as concerned if the government wanted to raise my taxes when my wife and I are barely squeaking by right now. Thus, through my vote, I suggest to the officials elected to represent me that I would prefer my taxes to NOT be increased. Yet I know some people – like the students in my classes – would prefer to remain silent and just let history and policy take its course.

This sort of apathy is extended to our government. America has a unique form of government. The government is not an institution that exists apart from the citizens. The government [u]IS[/u] the people. It is truly a government [i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]. Since the average elected official remains in office for about 10 years or less, there is a high turnover rate. The direction of the nation is determined by the majority or plurality of votes (or [i]voices[/i]) of elected officials who are elected via the majority votes (or [i]voices[/i]) of the people. When one group is quiet with their voice (or vote) – you can be certain that the other side is not. Believe me – abortion, homosexual and pornographic “free speech” groups would LOVE for Christians to simply stay at home on November 4, 2008. Why? Because the size of the evangelical community matters in this nation. While we know that not all evangelicals are truly born-again Christians – the fact remains that their participation (or lack of participation) has been a deciding factor in the policies of this nation for many years.

In November, the nation will elect a president. That president will nominate a justice (or two) to the Supreme Court. There is currently a 5-4 split on the Supreme Court. The Court determines just which pieces of legislation or findings of lower courts can be considered law. Many of our early laws were based upon precepts found in Scripture (Charles Finney, after all, began reading the Scriptures since it was required in law school because it was the basis and foundation for law in a “Christian” society). A liberal court, however, sees the Constitution as a “living document” for which it can be interpreted differently as the culture and views of the electorate changes. A conservative court views the Constitution as “strict constructionalists” – believing that the founding fathers meant what they said (and nothing more, nothing less) during the writing of the law.

Will I cast a vote in November? Probably. Why? This isn’t due to “bowing my knee” to a particular politician, political party or political system (or even the “affairs of this world”). Rather, I live in a nation that has maintained a freedom against intrusion for the people. The government literally protects the people of this nation from the government. I fear the day when the government will call out believers for our faith even more than they do now. So I choose between the alternative choices that I think that would be better for my wife, family and neighbors. Of course, I could choose to do or say NOTHING. But that too is a choice.

Like I said, I understand the reasons why Greg and the moderators frown upon the mention of politics for politics sake on this website. This website is designed for the purpose of considering the “Old Paths” of those who have gone before us. SermonIndex desires to incite that awesome hunger and thirst for intimate fellowship with our Lord above the doctrines and neo-modern traditions of men – of which such an awakening is reflective of true personal “revival.” Yet there seems to be a subtle infusion of “non-involvement” thought for which there can often be no answer given the mission of this website. It is easy to invoke such statements calling any sort of involvement as entirely spiritually gratuitous when a defense of any contrary position itself could be deemed “political.”

Dear brother, I am not saying that this was your intent or even the overwhelming motivation behind this or ANY of your posts. In fact, I am not even calling out any specific or individual brother or sister within our humble fellowship. Rather, I would simply like to see all of the brethren here – if they desire to be so nonpolitical – to be nonpolitical in all of their posts. In other words, it is possible to be “politically nonpolitical.” I have witnessed some brethren so ardent in their “nonpolitical” rhetoric that they have gone so far as to mention names of politicians in subtle attacks on both their policies and even claims of “born again” faith. Is this what we should become?

I guess that my point (however convoluted it might be) is the same in this regard as it is toward those who have referenced intricate personal doctrines and various conspiracy theories. We should be very quick to make a distinction between statements of fact and statements that are based upon our own unique conclusion. In this regard, not all of us think that voting is a sin. In fact, some of us might even feel that, like Cornelius the Centurion, a person can be both a soldier in this nation’s military and still be a devout and gifted believer in Christ Jesus. Yes, our opinions and conclusions about such things can differ and we can even discuss such things with perfect grace and patience. However, it would be helpful if we could somehow make the distinction within our posts. It is MY OPINION that I can vote. I arrived to this opinion after much prayer and study. Yet I have not arrived to the perfection of I Corinthians 13:10 yet. I am very much aware that I could be wrong, just as much as I am very much aware that the opposing thought could be wrong.

I would like to add that I very much respect the opinion of those who might disagree with me. This is true of all matters of doctrines that I might not personally adhere to. I do read their posts with sincere interest and without a pretense that my doctrinal views (or mere opinions) are superior to anyone else’s. There have been many, many instances where I have changed an opinion after something that I initially read here in the forums (or heard in a sermon contained here). More times than not, however, these were presented in a manner reflective of God’s wonderful grace and patience. It is my sincere prayer and goal that I might do the same with my words.

Thank you, dear brother, for your patience with me. We are all on this journey and pilgrimage together. May we encourage one another with the liberty of God as we serve Him as willing servants of the cross!

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
- II Corinthians 3:17

:-)

B
bonni May 25, 2008

I have enjoyed reading this thread, I agree with brother Keith Daniel when he said "The greatest tradgedy in the church today is compromising christianity" The fact that the majority of what we see in christendom is apostate, is not the cause for so much corruption in our country. I believe that the blame lies in us who are truly born again,in that we are compromised in our walk, beginning in the home. If we are truly the "salty" christians then that means one thing for sure....SALT STOPS CORRUPTION.


I do believe that we should not be entangled (wrapped up in the affairs of this life, for that is dangerous and can choke out the word of God. But I also believe if God's providence of letting us be born in a country that gives us the right to use our legal system as Paul did when he said "is it lawful for you to beat a Roman citizen, uncondemned?" then we have the liberty to use that system, as long as the participation in it does not violate God's higher law.Example.. participating in war when God clearly says "Thou shalt not kill" God sets up kingdoms and he takes them down, also God turns the heart of the kings as he turns the rivers. God sets up government for His sovereign purpose, we are also to obey that law as long as it does not violate God's higher law. Jesus clearly taught Peter to Pay taxes, even though it was "unfair to tax the children", He also taught him not to fight back in the flesh,"My Fathers cup, shall I not drink it?" "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" "Here is the faith and the patience of the saints"


There were many good points made by all that I read on this thread, thanks to all that posted, you really got me thinking!


Blessings to all, bonni

sermonindex May 25, 2008

HI Chris.....I appreciate your reply. I took the time to read it carefully and I can appreciate many of the points that you made. I think that if you re-read the beginning of your intial comment, you will see that you said that"the only reason I reply to these sorts of threads." It was for that comment alone I made the observation that it was a "wee," bit arrogant. :)

Let me just state emphatically....I do not believe that it is sinful to vote. I did not nor have ever said that. If you feel led to vote, then you should vote. I think you go too far Chris when you claim that Paul was being political when he claims the right of Roman citizenship to avoid a beating.

When I speak of political invovment, I am speaking in the context of the last ten years or so. When, it was Christian leaders who were making the claim that it was almost ungodly not to be involved in politics. And, the reason that this country is in such a mess is because Christians had taken themselves out of the political arena. I simply and completely disagree with that opinion. I would be more in line with, and have written for several years about , with Keith Daniel.

You see Chris, it is not a matter of simply voting or fulfilling your civic duties. It has been strongly suggested that if we want to turn this country around then we have to send good men to Washington and vote for George Bush. This was going to be the answer to all of our problems, the democratic system was going to create a righteous country, part of the answer was going to come through Washington. I disagree with that notion. There was no political element to the Welsh revival, or the revival in Lewis in Scotland or indeed the great awekenings. The answer lay, and continues to lie in Christ alone. For instance Chris, Barna says that if every professing Christian brought one person to Christ, and that one person brought one person to Christ, and this happened three times, all of America would be saved. And if all of America was saved then you would not have a homosexual problem or an abortion problem or a need to strive endlessly in the political realm trying to glean enough Supreme court judges to slowly turn this nation around and away from its wickedness. Perhaps many would think that it is unrrealistic for every professing Christian to bring one person to Christ? I do not. Do I think that this whole country will be saved and that all our problems shall go away ? No :) It has already been written what things will be like in the last days. Yet we , as Christians must strive towards His perfection and follow His ways . Spurgeon once said to a young Pastor who had come to ask why he was not seeing someone saved every week in his church "surely you do not expect to see someone saved every single week do you?" And the young Pasotr replied "Well, no." And Spurgeon said "There is your problem."

I make that point Chris, just to say that we as Christians do not really expect Jesus to solve our problems, we believe that we have to take matters into our own hands, and I am specifically talking about the morals of the country now, whether it be abortion or homosexuality. We believe that we can somehow legislate the morals of indivduals.

I would say that my key Scripture in all of this would be ....2Ch 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

The Church in America and in the West is in such a woeful condition, that we do not even have the luxury to expend any energies on political movements. We need to sort oursleves out before we can even begin to have an impact on the world around us. When we are revived and we are once again a city set on a hill, then and only then will we begin to influence the society that we find ourselves in.

Finaly Chris, and I respect your opinion brother, I would urge you to study the role of an Ambassador, for that is what we are. Ambassadors are sent to countries to represent their own conty and its leader. It would not be appropriate for the American ambassador in Russia to try and influence local politics. If he did this he would be thrown out of the country. He is there to speak for His King or his president or his Prime Minister. That is what we are here for. To speak for our King and speak His words to a world that dwells in darkness. The political syatem that exists right now in America, will not even allow the basic tennents of our faith to be spoken. If the President of America, or future President were to come out tomorrow and say that there is no other path to our heavenly Father but Jesus, and that all others are on a road to hell, he would be thrown out of office of would not be elected. We have a national day of prayer where the prayer excludes the name of Jesus for fear of offending. If the President were to tell the the truth about the Muslim faith or the Mormon faith then how far would he get in the politcal realm that so many would have Christians be involved in as an agent of furthering the Kingdom. There is only one way I know to further the Kingdom of God and to make disciples of all nations, that is the way of Jesus. When we can boldly proclaim His name as the answer to every problem and the only path to Salvation, then we will be coming close to where we should be.

So Chris, yes be a good citizen, vote if you are led, if there is a law that can be used to avoid suffering for the sake of Christ, then utilize it, but make no mistake, the time is drawing near when every Christian in the world , no matter what political system he belongs to , is going to have to count the cost of following Jesus. The Anti-Christ will be in place and all those laws that "protected," us will be overturned, perhaps in one day.

PS I love you brother and I respect yout opinion and your right to hold and express it. The fact that I disagree with you does not mean that I do not respect you. We may perhaps have to agree to disagree which is a perfectly acceptable solution to me. I do agree with the basic premise of sermonindex about matters regarding politics, it rarely bares fruit and almost always tends to be a Spirit quencher and is usually always in regard to American politics.

P
pastorfrin May 25, 2008

Brother Chris and Brother Frank,

I wish to thank both of you for your well written articles which express your views.
You have both clearly expressed your idea of Christian duties while we are assigned as ambassadors to this earth.

If I was able to express myself in the same manner, I would possibly attract less conflict.
Though it is evident which view I hold to, it has never been my intention to cause conflict with any of my brothers or sisters here on SI. If I have given the impression I was judging any of you please accept my humble apology, for this has never been my intention.
I believe through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and our love for the brethren; we will and should be, even with our differences, able to further His will and calling in the body of Christ.

I wish to express my sincere love for each of you and all those here on SI. Please forgive me if my rustic way of expressing myself, at times may offend; I assure you ‘all’ it is never my intention to do so.

The graces of our Lord Jesus Christ bless and keep you.

In His Love
pastorfrin

sermonindex May 26, 2008

Praise the Lord Pastorfin. "You will know them by their love for one another." "And when they were all of one accord." Yes brothers and sisters, this is the attitude that comes about just before revival. There is room for difference in non-essentials, when we decide to leave our pride and our ego's at the door then the Lord begins to move. While there is many differeing opinions on this forum, it is our love that will win out. All of us who know Jesus will spend eternity together, let us strive together under a banner of truth and unity and love. There can be no unity without truth and Love. I thank you for the humility of your post and your leadership in Christlikeness. We can all mess up and let our mouths rush out before our hearts, but it takes a "real man," to humble himself and reach out to others in the love of Christ. May we all follow pastorfin's example. We can have all things, we can be right, but if we do not have love then we have nothing. The Truth spoken in Love is the power of God....Frank

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pastorfrin May 30, 2008

Brother Frank,

Thank you for your kind words and the spirit of love which permeates each of your post.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

In His Love
pastorfrin

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