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Scary quotes from the Emergent Church

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intrcssr83 May 21, 2008

[i]Critical towards supposed modernist influences upon contemporary churches[/i]

"We see modernity with its absolutism's and colonialism's and totalitarianism as a kind of static dream, a desire to abide in timeless abstractions and extract humanity from the ongoing flow of history and emergence, a naïve hope to make now the end of history (which actually sounds either like a kind of death wish or millennialism). In Christian theology, this anti-emergent thinking is expressed in systematic theologies that claim (overtly, covertly, or unconsciously) to have final orthodoxy nailed down, freeze-dried, and shrink-wrapped forever." [b]Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, pg 286[/b]


[i]Relativistic view towards theology and doctrine[/i]

Because theology is connected to real life, answering particular questions, concerns and opportunities of the day, it will be ever-changing. If it is not so, then it may well not be theology - it may be dogma, history, or a collection of random facts, but not theology. Theology is the living understanding of the story of God in play with the story of our lives. [b]– Doug Paget, Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches: Five views. Pg 121[/b]

"Ask me if Christianity (my version of it, yours, the Pope's, whoever's) is orthodox, meaning true, and here's my honest answer: a little, but not yet. Assuming by Christianity you mean the Christian understanding of the world and God, Christian opinions on soul, text, and culture I'd have to say that we probably have a couple of things right, but a lot of things wrong, and even more spreads before us unseen and unimagined. But at least our eyes are open! To be a Christian in a generously orthodox way is not to claim to have the truth captured, stuffed, and mounted on the wall." [b]– Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, pg. 293[/b]

“I am learning that my tradition includes the rabbis and reformers and revolutionaries and monks and nuns and pastors and writers and philosophers and artists and every person everywhere who has asked big questions of a big God” [b]Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith, Rob Bell, p. 14.[/b]

(Except for very few exceptions, “rabbis” do not embrace the biblical gospel, and neither do most
“monks” and “nuns.” The great majority of monks and nuns throughout church history have fought against justification by faith alone. Rob Bell either has an extremely naïve view of Church history, or else he believes that people can be a part of God’s Kingdom who do not believe the biblical gospel.)


[i]Denial of the Bible’s sufficiency and clarity[/i]

Everybody’s interpretation is essentially his or her own opinion. Nobody is objective.
Several years ago I was an intense meeting with our church’s leaders in which we were discussing several passages in the Bible. One of the leaders was sharing her journey in trying to understand what the Bible teaches about the issue at hand and said something like this: ‘Ive spent a great deal of time studying the issue. I’ve read what people on one side say, and I’ve read what the people on the other side say. I’ve read the scholars and theologians and all sorts of others on this subject. But then, in the end, I decided to go back to the Bible and just take it for what it says.’
What was she really saying?
Now please understand that this way of thinking is prevalent in a lot of Christian churches, so I don’t mean to single her out. But this view of the bible is warped and toxic, to say the least. The assumption is that there is a way to read the Bible that is agenda and perspective free. As if all these other people have their opinions and biases, but some are able to just read it for what is says.
Think about that for a moment: This perspective is claiming that a person can simply read the Bible and do what it says – unaffected by outside influences.
But let’s be honest. When you hear people say that they are just going to tell you what the Bible says, it is not true. [b]Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith, Rob Bell. Pg 53.[/b]

How do “I” know the Bible is always right? And if “I” am sophisticated enough to realize that I know nothing of the Bible without my own involvement via interpretation, I’ll also ask how I know which school, method, or technique of biblical interpretation is right. What makes a “good” interpretation good? And if an appeal is made to a written standard (book, doctrinal statement, etc.) or to common sense or to “scholarly principles of interpretation,” the same pesky “I” who liberated us from the authority of the church will ask, “Who sets the standard? Whose common sense? Which scholars and why? Don’t all these appeals to authorities and principles outside the Bible actually undermine the claim of ultimate biblical authority? Aren’t they just the new pope? [b]–Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy pg133.[/b]

(How many time have you sat in a small-group Bible study where you open your bible and rather than do a proper exegetical study, the emphasis is “What does this verse say to you?”, during you all share and hopefully can come up with an interpretation the whole group can agree on?
[i]16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.[/i]
[b]2 Peter 1:16-21[/b]
Scripture on it’s own trumps any form of subjectivity simply because it has it’s origins in an objective source. No word of scripture ever came forth from subjective interpretation, and hence neither should it be read.)


[i]Essentials of the Gospel Message openly questioned and denied[/i]

This is one of the huge problems with the traditional understanding of hell, because if the Cross is in line with Jesus' teaching, then I won't say the only and I certainly won't say ... or even the primary or a primary meaning of the Cross ... is that the Kingdom of God doesn't come like the kingdoms of this world by inflicting violence and coercing people. But that the kingdom of God comes thru suffering and willing voluntary sacrifice right? But in an ironic way the doctrine of hell basically says no, that's not really true. At the end God gets his way through coercion and violence and intimidation and domination just like every other kingdom does. The Cross isn't the center then, the Cross is almost a distraction and false advertising for God. [b]Brian McLaren[/b]


[i]Pluralistic view towards non-Christian beliefs[/i]

We claim the beautiful and the good and the true wherever we find it, because all things are ours. Several years ago, I was hanging around after one of our church services, and a young woman named Yvette walked up to me and told me she had been listening to me for the last few weeks and hated everything I was saying and totally disagreed with my teachings and the whole time she just wanted to stand up on her chair and yell at me.
I immediately liked her.
She went on to say that she was studying witchcraft and was totally opposed to the things she heard me saying.
I responded, “But you keep coming back.” And then I told her I was thrilled that she kept returning to our gatherings. I hoped that our community would continue to be a safe place for her to question and study and discuss and hear that God loves her just the way she is. [b]Velvet Elvis, pg 89.[/b]

I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts. This will be hard, you say, I agree. But frankly, it’s not at all easy to be a follower of Jesus in many “Christian” religious contexts either. [b]–Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy pg260.[/b]

“So as a Christian, I am free to claim the good, the true, the holy, wherever and whenever I find it. I live with the understanding that truth is bigger than any religion and the world is God’s and everything in it” [b]Velvet Elvis p. 80[/b].

(If we follow Rob’s views out to their logical conclusion, then we ought to embrace "truth" found in the Quran. Why stop there? According to Rob Bell, we ought to embrace "truths" found in the Hindu vedas, and the book of Mormon. Why not? Rob Bell says “truth is bigger than any religion.” Furthermore, when weighed against the Great Commission, Why bother with missions and evangelism?)

G
ginnyrose May 21, 2008

Quote:

"Now please understand that this way of thinking is prevalent in a lot of Christian churches, so I don’t mean to single her out. But this view of the bible is warped and toxic, to say the least. The assumption is that there is a way to read the Bible that is agenda and perspective free. As if all these other people have their opinions and biases, but some are able to just read it for what is says. Think about that for a moment: This perspective is claiming that a person can simply read the Bible and do what it says – unaffected by outside influences. But let’s be honest. When you hear people say that they are just going to tell you what the Bible says, it is not true."

Duh! Imagine the OT prophets taking this attitude after God spoke to them!

These guys are so full of themselves they cannot see the forest for the trees! So wordy, I wonder whether they understand what they say? Or, maybe they are purposely wordy to impress folks, making others believe they actually know what they are talking about! Reminds me what Bro. Jude tells us in verse 16: These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great [i]swelling words[/i], having men's persons in admiration, because of advantage."

ginnyrose

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Ruach34 May 21, 2008

WOW! Their ideology is not even subtle.

I agree that we should not make disciples of the 'Christian' religion. That has become a religion like all the others. Rather we seek to make disciples of the the Lord Jesus Christ. He says, "If any man will be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me."

But, as far as this stench goes, it is as Isaiah says in the 44th chapter verse 9-20. I will not write it entirely here but rather read for yourselves.

In verse 20 "[i]He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, "Is there a lie in my right hand?[/i]"

sermonindex May 21, 2008


I always try to comprehend the [b]how[/b] when trying to comprehend why, when staring into the dark eyes of this sweet faced fairy called emergence.

It's really not emergence at all, but re-emergence would be more appropriate. A great ,great, ancient and great grand-daughter of secular humanism, spitting on the sacrifice of Christ, and the WAY.

I believe the influence of this movement, at least theologically, will be of little, or no consequence in harming the true remnant of Christ, because it is ecumenical in nature. They have no strings to directly bind the strong man,[the true church] only a loosely strung web of the ancient arguments that man is good, and finding god makes him better overall.

The real issue here is experience, for in today's theological thrust, experience trumps theology [doctrine] every time. [to the foolish].I think the strategy here is to lull the church into numbing, sensual and self-seeking experience, only to [b]validate[/b] the experience with the so called theology, if necessary.


It is really no theology at all, but an all encompassing philosophy, a "do as you will", mentality, with jesus thrown in for a little salt, and the liberal, wide open mind set embracing any religion, and their practices, for the pepper. It is displayed in intellectual and complicated terminology on purpose, so that there are no absolutes. You touch it, and like mercury, it squirts away, winking as it glides, onto another crevass or crack....

Apostolic preaching,and holy shepherds in the true church will keep these wolves out, and the true lambs of God will hear His voice and follow Him only. "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men unto me."

We need voices led by God, who can address these issues in [b]simple[/b] terms, so that the youngest can comprehend. Living in a selfish way, and untrusting way unto Jesus alone, will kill you. This is the simple gospel that all of the poor and unlearned of the world [3 billion] can comprehend.

If holiness, and His presence validating that holy church is evident, they will come, and the true prodigal will return.

T
tjservant May 21, 2008

Amen Brothertom. Amen.

sermonindex May 21, 2008

It's Christianized New Age. Thats all it is.

Krispy

sermonindex May 21, 2008


New Age, same anti-christ.

Let us learn to love and stand for the truth, for we are watching the great falling away, as we speak. I want to catch as many as I can, and I know you do too.

C
Compton May 21, 2008

I think I liked emergent theology better when it was called liberal theology.

I
intrcssr83 Jun 13, 2008

Here's some stuff from Doug Pagett:

[url=http://podcast.wayofthemasterradio.com/audio/podcasts/1007/WOTMR-10-22-07-Hour1.mp3]Interview on Way of the Master Radio[/url] (keep your ears open to his response to Todd Friel's use of the historical-grammatical method of hermeneutics!)

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=oVdLZlBYseg]CNN debate between Paget and John Macarthur - "Should Christians do Yoga?"[/url]

Here's one more thing: These Emergent leaders will boast that scripture cannot be interpreted objectively, yet whenever their own work is misquoted and/or taken out of context by critics and reviewers, they are noticably quick to anger. Can anyone see the fallacy?

T
Thommy2 Aug 7, 2008

Interview on Way of the Master Radio (keep your ears open to his response to Todd Friel's use of the historical-grammatical method of hermeneutics!) - earlier post


I just listened to his interview.... I don't know what to say. Doug is...... I don't know... Doug...what's his view of salvation??? If it's as unbiblical as his views in this interview...Where does he get this stuff??? i am serious i want to know

sermonindex Aug 7, 2008

RE: original
It reminds me of a Marxist, Leninist intellectual explaining His views interacting his true Humanist Faith using Christian vernacular.


It is not really idea's about the "Emerging Church" at all, but about "emerging truth", the redeemer of modern secular humanism. "Truth is bigger than any religion.", is their real mantra, and constitutional Right for all humanity.


Really, truth is relevant, marching in step with the evolution of mankind's mores. In simple terms, there is no absolute truth. We survive as an organism in toto, a cosmic community that ever changes as time has matured , and Christianity is one of the fingers on one of the hands that point to a God.


A Christian, with the holy Spirit mandating and molding our thinking into the mind of Christ, practices casting down thoughts, imaginations, and "creative" thinking that exalts itself AGAINST the knowledge of Christ.


This is nothing but the wonderful seed of doubt that the serpent hissed toward EVE; "Has God Said?"


These people have long since cast away their faith, and as I see it, are somewhat irrelevant.


[b]Thy Word, Oh Lord, IS TRUTH![/b] , not the ever shifting psychobabble of antichrist humanists that wallow in their own defiance of The Messiah Jesus, and his commands. I understand intrcesrr83, that that is your point, thereby the "scary Quotes" title. The issue I have is that they DESIRE you to engage them on their own terms, and we can never get to the "Right" of it, for encrouched in their vernacular are undefined and quasi trues that squirm under your confrontation...and slip back into a more "liberal" Christian Theme. Their language is designed to ambivalent, and oozes and drifts into non categorization by Nature. It's like double talk, but more sophisticated and slippery.


They despise the rule of our Lord Jesus, and spout antichrist signs of ancient Gomorrah translated into modern American that cries, "ME!" "I will ascend" "It is my life." "I will be satisfied." "I will find my own path to God" "I will be happy!"


"The cross is false advertising for God!", for these very reasons. The cross would kill me, and inhibit my many ambitions and desires to satisfy myself, and it surely is my right to do so!" [go my own way, and reject the Cross of Christ."]


"I tell you even now, with tears, that these are the enemies of the Cross of the Messiah."..[to the Judiazers who discredited Paul's gospel pointing to works of the law..]

It is a similar spirit. Anything, and any religion away from The Blood shed for humanity...the world...all before and ahead.


It is but Apostasy, and these leaders of course do not want to be identified with his majesty the Devil, but they betray themselves with such an eloquent, but alas, forked tongue.

A
adamdawkins Aug 8, 2008

I just listened to the interview too...

deary me.

P
Praise2him59 Aug 8, 2008


I just listened to the interview too...
deary me.

Hi,
What interview are you all speaking about here?

G
ginnyrose Aug 8, 2008


What interview are you all speaking about here?

Check out intrcssr83's post posted on 6-12-08 at 20:01. There are some links listed.

Hope this helps.

ginnyrose

H
HomeFree89 Aug 8, 2008

Have any of you read, "The Truth War" by John MacArthur and "Why We're Not Emergent By Two Guys Who Should Be" by Kevin Deyoung and Ted Kluck?

I've read all of "The Truth War" and part of "Why We're Not Emergent". They really deal with this issue well.

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