What is the Balance between the two?

I'm one who's always asking questions. I'm always looking for balance among God's people, whether in church practice, preaching or the studying of the Word. I used to be extreme on particular points, but I'm learning to find common ground and see the balance. For example, I used to be very extreme of being zealous and committed to God (which is important of course), but I failed to bring the balance of God's love and commitment to us even when we fail being committed.

One question I'm seeking the balance to is the correlation between God being angry at the wicked everyday, and His holy hatred for the wicked, along with the demonstration of His love through the cross while we were still yet SINNERS (or wicked).

It shows a hatred of God for the wicked, and yet a mercy and love of God for the wicked. What are your thoughts on this topic? What messages would you recommend that bring balance to them?

Hey Mattie, pleae do not mistake 'looking for balance' with lukewarmness. My heart winces when I hear, "O, we just need to be balanced."
I agree that there are many poles on which people take a stand and this is wrong. Jesus came from a whole 'nother persepective and turned the world upside down. We can either take the worlds perspective or take God's kingdom perspective.

The latter perspective is as Jesus says, " I did not come to bring peace, but a sword..." This sword, to me, is an earnestness even zeal for God, His word and His Glory. Just like Phineas in Numbers 25, stayed the wrath of the Lord for the action he took against sin in the camp.

You ask:

It shows a hatred of God for the wicked, and yet a mercy and love of God for the wicked. What are your thoughts on this topic? What messages would you recommend that bring balance to them?

I don't know if there is a 'balance'. This is God's view, His perspective, it His Glory! It is too high and lofty to make mere puffs at it with our intelligence. We stand daily before a Holy God, being His creation and have sought out our own devices (Ecc 7:29). therefore we incur the wrath of God upon ourselves and upon our sin/actions. We deserve this wrath, this punishment. Yet, God in His love and mercy, has sought a way for us to be rightly related to Him. A place that was ours at the first, but rejected it. We could not make ammends on our own. Christ Jesus not only made atonement/ammends for this wrath and submitted to the punishment, He sought it out for us. He walked towards that goal (the cross), he submitted himself to that end and subjected himself to sinful men that put him to death. And then they looked upon Him and said, "come down from there, if you are the Son of God."
Never realizing this was fulfilling all righteousness.

O, God, may we subject ourselves to the same path, the path of Humility, Love and Truth; which is in fact the way of Christ Himself. There is no greater honor for a man or woman, but this way. Lofty positions in IBM, rulers of nations, lawyers for presidents cannot compare to this way, it is too lofty. This way leaves the mouth a gape saying, "this one truly was the Son of God."

This statement is the response we must evoke from audiences in our preaching of the gospel! I don't think there is much 'balance' in it. It is the entire wrapping up of all things in one, Christ Jesus.

What thinkest thou?

moe_mac said:

There is a balance.

I must not be understanding the whole balance thing, then. I am considering balance with lukewarmness.

Anyone...anyone...?

Ruach...

Why do you emphasize lukewarmness? Did I ever bring up anything about being lukewarm?

There is a difference between asking questions to test the character of God (as the Pharisees did) and asking honest questions ("Lord, what is the greatest of the commandments?") My questions are merely honest questions that are important to consider. I agree with you about lukewarmness. I believe in the truth of the Word and that it should never be compromised. However, being the finite beings we are, and serving an infinite God revealed in the Scriptures, we should humbly ask ourselves questions and search out the truth on the matter with the hopes of understanding God and His character more.

So, all this to say, I don't know where lukewarmness came from. However I think to be balanced is biblical. By balance, I don't mean compromise. I simply mean rightly dividing and understanding the word on a matter, exploring the context and coming to a truthful conclusion.

I must not be understanding the whole balance thing, then. I am considering balance with lukewarmness.

Lukewarm = compromise. Your hot is not hot. Your cold is not cold.

To me, balance implies hot and cold at the same time. Your hot is hot. Your cold is cold. They exist at the same time…in balance. Not compromised into a worthless mixture.

Just my 2 cents.

Mattie said:

Did I ever bring up anything about being lukewarm?

No, you said nothing about lukewarmness, nor am I charging you with such a deed. However, in my peasily (misspelled) little mind I see balance as right there, in the middle and lukewarm. However, I am seeing your point and that you are referring to 'balance' as rightly dividing the Word of God, right?

I guess anyone can construe, as myself did, that balance is a welcome sign to pluralism or syncretism. Or creating a place where all can agree.

So re-read my first response without the balance comments. You may find some congruity to your question.

Hello Mattie,

This is an excellent question. I would like to recommend for your reading "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. He deals with this subject in one of his chapters. Perhaps I can give you a tad bit of what he wrote. When we think of His wrath we must seperate it from the human experience of being angry; for he is not hot tempered, cruel or irrational.

God's wrath is judicial, a controlled response to sin. (At this point I am leaving Packer's book) In John 3:18 we see that light has come into the world and that people reject the truth because they love sin. Notice in Romans 1:17-21: "God revealed, God is revealed, that which can be known of God is manifest in them, God has shown it to them, clearly seen, being understood, they knew God". Now in 1:21-32: God also gave them up, God gave them up, God gave them over to a reprobate mind." He gives them what they have chosen for themselves.

in vs.32 it says that "knowing the judgement of God...that they are worthy of death." In John 3:18 the decisive moment is a /krisis/ in the Greek, a choosing of life or death...to reject the truth for love of sin and incur God's wrath or believe and live without such sin in this life.

I do not believe that we can gather from this that God's wrath upon the wicked is synonymous with hatred for the wicked. Look at the close proximity vs. 18 is with the great vs. 16. He not only loved the world...He so loved it! He doesn't want anyone to perish. The text you used in Romans 5..."that he loved us while we were sinners"...we were the wicked ones that He so loved. I Thes. 1:10...Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come.

Hi Mattie,

One question I'm seeking the balance to is the correlation between God being angry at the wicked everyday, and His holy hatred for the wicked, along with the demonstration of His love through the cross while we were still yet SINNERS (or wicked).

Everyone must be sensible to some degree to ask this of themselves.

I have found some application in this parable.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

But forasmuch as he (the servant) had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

And the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

But he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses (Matthew 18:23-35).

Too often it is easy to see the wicked as getting away with sin, but sin always ends in terrible misery. In fact, it is the awful price of sin that often causes people to look to God, and in those times we are more ready to have compassion on them.

I think the compassion of a "merciful debtor" should be applied to one another. For instance one brother finds he has the means and grace for a street ministry, and soon his own clarity and readiness in this area makes him absolutely intolerant of other brethren who are not doing street ministry. He forgets the Lord was merciful in bringing him along to that point, and so he expects instantly from others what has taken him years to realize.

Just some thoughts,

MC

Mahoney, your declaration that

God IS angry with the wicked everyday, and yet, He also justifies the wicked.

does not square with Scripture, does it? The wicked are turned into hell. It is the righteous He justifies, not the wicked....A righteous person is one who recognizes his sin, repents and turns to God. This earns for him the distinction of being a saint vs a sinner. Nowhere do we read where God's redeemed are called sinners nor wicked.

Mattie, Your original question about God's wrath vs his love, how compatible are they?

Are you a mom? It might help here if you consider this: you do all you can for your child. You sacrifice, you teach, you feed, you cloth him/her, do everything to help you child do the right thing. Now, if your child turns and rebels at you and everything you have done for him/her, how would you react? You so desperately want the child to do the right thing, but he/she refuses and spurns you and chooses rather to do what is harmful and destructive. Now, would this not evoke in you anger at this child? Sure it would. God is called "Our Father" and the saints "child/children" indicating a relationship similar to the human relationships of parent and child with its accompanying emotions.

When I see the wickedness of man I can understand God's wrath and anger and some of it rubs off on me, too. However, knowing that I am very incapable of acting out justly in expressing this, I know I must back off and allow God to deal with it. And He will. Read Revelation 6:10: "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

There can be no mercy without wrath.

Hope this helps...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Isn’t that funny how people view the same term differently? When I see balance I consider “the remainder”....I realize that’s not what you mean of course, I think I understand in part what you are asking. How can one weigh the righteous anger of God and the love of God, as in a balance scale, to clarify it? (Is that somewhat correct?)

Firstly, if one were to put the righteousness and holiness of God in one side of the scale, His perfect character, His anger toward the wicked (but not the ‘hatred‘ necessarily of the sinner- but His hatred of the sin: God is angry with the wicked every day, but He does not delight in the death of the wicked.), the Righteous Judgment of God upon those who have caused offense both towards Himself and towards others, the HUGE weight of the curse of sin and death upon humanity at large; WOW! Quite the tip of the scales!

**We must remember that the wicked do not only cause themselves problems, the things God hates, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look... (such as in 1 John “the pride of life”);
a lying tongue (think of the damage that thing alone has done to others!);
and hands that shed innocent blood (not simply those who take the life of the unborn- but those that take the life of any living soul who has done nothing to deserve it with malice and hatred, as it says in another place “those that lie in wait“);
an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations (watch out you entertainment industry that stir up the imaginations of lust, anger, revenge, murder, and the like!);
feet that be swift in running to mischief (bad enough to have 1 to cause trouble for others, but when many gang up to join into mischief what terrible consequences can that have?);
a false witness that speaketh lies (taking deception to a whole new level and causing another person grief and much trouble by, in your heart, choosing to lie about that person);
and he that soweth discord among brethren (My haven’t we all seen the devastating effects of that!!! in churches, families, Bible study groups?).

Yet, how can we find a counterbalance to the sinful, judgment bound human condition? ONLY in Christ!! As someone earlier stated : For God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son..... It is not that we have first loved God, but that He has loved us and given us a “mercy seat”, a propitiation for our sins.

The cross represents the Love of God AND the Judgment of God on sinful humanity (when you view the cross see it as the perfect balance within that scale!) Christ received upon Himself the judgment for our sins, YES for the sins of the whole world. The balance of the righteous anger of God and the Love of God IS the Cross and the Christ on the cross who triumphed over the flesh, the sin nature of humanity, the wounds received from His friends, the anger of wicked men, the hatred of the enemy of our souls, even the end of the curse which is death! He is Victor over them all, and HE alone IS the place of perfect balance! He has the keys of death, hell and the grave. He has given, poured out upon ignorant (in the sense of the ignorance of it) humanity the absolute power of God in the grace of God to overcome, to be a child of God, to become a representative of God on the earth! That we might ALL have the opportunity to enjoy blessed fellowship with God on earth and an eternity together with Him in heaven!

Peace and grace in the Lord!

Mahoney,

Can you demonstrate from scripture this quote? I do not think that wrath and anger are the same thing.

"God IS angry with the wicked everyday"

Also isn't this the reason in His own words He gave His only begotten Son..."God so loved the world..."?

ginnyrose wrote:
There can be no mercy without wrath.

I also find that we use the word eternity so often, we often loose relevance of it's meaning.

I mean, the thought of many peoples existence right now such as injustice, abuse, war, poverty, etc. is enough to make me weep. But to consider that millions of people will endure much worse than these forever and ever. And millions of eons into the future they will still be enduring torment. And this is but the first day.

How can anyone ponder this dry eyed? I definantly cannot. It makes me think of what George Whitfield said "but if the bare mentioning of the torments is so shocking how terrible must the enduring of them be!" - which just makes me weep more.

ginnyrose wrote:
There can be no mercy without wrath.

I think about balance a lot. I think there is a balance between mercy and judgement. But I suppose I like to think of it as 2 wholes rather than 2 halves. I.e God is not half mercy, half judgement, but God is fully both.

If we fail to preach wrath, When we preach mercy, what weight will it carry? But if we fail to preach mercy, and only preach wrath have we really preached the gospel? After all, the gospel is good news.
What I do know, is that I can't seem to get my head around either wrath or mercy...but I am undone pondering them.

Blessings AJ

hello Mahoney,

thank you for your response. I have a couple studies I need to take care of, but afterwards as I have time I will do this.

I think that this scripture deals directly with God's character,

Exodus34:6,7 "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

God's heart is mercy, but His justice demands that He cannot clear the guilty. Therefore He took their penalty upon Himself (Jesus, God in the flesh) so we could recieve his forgiveness, and all that He in His lovely, glorious character desired to lavish upon us. The thing that will keep us from receiving His mercy is if we reject the "pardon" He has offered us in His Son...if we love darkness rather than light , because our deeds are evil. Then we will be storing up God's wrath against us in the day of judgement.

God IS love, and God is perfect justice.

Lori,
I love your insight, it is a gift to the body of Christ for sure.

blessings to all, bonni