Treasure

Fenelon says "we are to live a life of faith
[b]AND[/b] renunciation , in a spirit of self sacrifice". There is a fundamental error in the spirit of this teaching, that directs and causes one to look to the renunciation, and self sacrifice as the means to find the Father. It's
results are a super spiritual, monastic lifestyle and inner doctrine that focus on the man and his sacrifice, rather on the Risen Savior, and His willing sacrifice.

It views life with the fatalistic ideas that I must endure life, and the often, "bitterness of my external circumstances," and implies that this suffering is my atonement.[that's the self sacrifice part.] The Words of Jesus and the New Testament direct us to obey, and to submit to His discipline, NOT to live a life of self sacrifice. The Words of Jesus direct us to Love himself, and the Father, and our saved , born again family. These are our Brothers and Sisters, that live in the world of teenagers and diapers and jobs and bills.

Herein the sacrifices of God are born. We learn to love God, and our neighbor. We then in this loving see that we cannot, and by loving Him, we must diminish, and yes, even die to our natures, to find Him, to possess Him.

The Catholic separate and super-spiritual monastic system, taught to endorse the idea of a separate Priesthood is the granddaddy of this type of thinking. The fancy name for it is Stoicism. It is not rooted in Chritianity, or living a life of Faith, and I am sorry to say, a tool that Satan himself has used to enslave a Billion people today. If you are a partaker of the Holy Spirit, you are a priest, and you are made holy by the blood of Jesus, as you confess and forsake your Sin, unto One Mediator, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, and Him only.

All we need, and the thing that He desires, is to Honor Him, and learn to please Him, not to focus on our sacrifice, but His, for we will fail'

The gospel was designed for weaklings, and the common of the world, and is not isolated in some sacrificial hall, or lifestyle. Beware when anything seems to draw you away from this. Herein is the heart of meekness and Joy. My goal is just to be a good brother, and serve my family right where the common of the Earth are, and make Jesus happy while I'm doing it. I fail alot, but my trust is in His atonement, when I fail often.

It would appear that way.

Fenelon was a Catholic Bishop, in his day, over about 800 parishes,[circa 1690]and those among the most important in France. He was a staunch defender of all manner of Catholic doctrine, and of course, the Vatican and the Pope. He was an avid mystic, and sometimes friend of Madame Guyon, and also condemned her, when her radical meditative practices stepped on the toes of the Pope. {He was on the counsel that betrayed her]

There is no reason to go into the horrors of the Catholic church here, any more than there is for me to accept the insights of one so obviously warped. These writings are the fruit of a religious spirit that would direct the simple into a path where all grace has disappeared, as I have stated in my post.

Sounds real spiritual, but there are subtle chains in these ideas, about the sacrificial life, and as I said "Stoicism," that will bind you , not free you.

If you would like to hear Godly poetry, give Charles Wesley a shot. He knew Jesus. Fenelon was an unbeliever.

To the pure, all things are pure. Jesus said of the Pharisees, "Do, as they say, [ for they sit in the seat of Moses,], but do not as they do, for they are hypocrites."

Much of this "deeper life" Catholic writing has a sense of deep devotion, and virtue, but impregnated within, a subtle underpinning of self duty and self sacrifice to attain it, and then, of course, follows it's doctrines. These, if believed, will carry on to the lake of fire, for the deceived.

The "madonna", or Catholic "Mary", that is the adored and worshipped, and the Mediator for this Hellish Cult, is nothing less than an ancient and foul Demon that sits above, absorbing worship from the enslaved. Often, seekers like you , may be intrigued by the radical sense of devotion these mystics have, and not realize that their devotion only stems from a radical reality of their own awful enslavement to these ancient devils.

Of course, when they sit in that temple, declaring themselves to be God, they could not reveal their true face. They appear as angels of light, and tighten their chains slowly, and use words that may or may not be implanted with multiple meanings, like, "A sacrificial life."

You see, if I begin to be obsessed with living this way, as a means to God, I am my Saviour, and these "ascended ones", [saints, and "mary."] are just my dutiful helpers. It leads to more and more "sacrifice", and separation from the common.

One fellow lived on top of a pole, never descending for several decades. Many , in this "deeper faith", whip themselves violently and with much blood letting, to atone for their obvious lack of deep worship unto God.[many have bled to death,] and some actually allow themselves to be crucified, with real nails.

I doubt that Peter was crucified upside down, "for he believed he was not worthy "right side up"....Nonsense!..another myth to instill the reflection of our own unworthiness, and to blaze a flow of our own sacrifice to please a God of holiness! These writings are rife with such a spirit, and they are foul , a stench in the nose of the Creator.

They begin by "Has God Said?", "You can find Him on these terms. Have a nibble."

It is certainly not an insult to be called a seeker, especially in the context of going on to know the Lord. I hope I will always be in that category, and I did not mean it as an insult to you. "The Lord has never forsaken ANYONE who seeks Him."

2]. No. the Lord Jesus does not need any help in creating a "deeper life" in people, but sometimes we do. That is why Jesus put teachers in the body, and why you come hear to listen and absorb Truth at sermonindex.

3] My comments about the excesses of "devotion" that may develop from these heresies, were to accentuate the maturity of the fruit that may develop by accepting something as innocuous as "sacrificial", in the context of obedience to Jesus of Nazareth as truth, and then incorporating that into your belief and devotional lifestyle. It will kill you, in the end.

4] In the same way as you generalize the expression, "We, as Christians...", I post and express my views in a general manner, as I define truth through my thoughts, maturity and emotions. These are not personal. They are not directed toward you, lor-e, as an individual.

5]I agree with your assessment of the modern Church, in general, we're in big trouble, being shaken at every corner. Yet, I was assessing a subtlety of a Spirit, that has enslaved one billion people, [b]Today[/b]. Because the nature of it has always been the same, the 400 year old writings of some of it's devotee's are read today, and some may assume that this spirit is the way to a deeper experience to the Father.

I was merely pointing out, in a general manner, as an expression of truth to me, the underlying thoughts that are so wicked, and have ensnared so many.

6]. "Christ centeredness" Those that are eventually captured by Papal dominion considered their quest as one for Christ; salvation. They did not sign up to become an emissary for the Devil, but they ended there. All Christians should continually seek a Jesus centered life. It is absolutely logical, yet the Devil eats babies, and some may assume that what is being held in front of them [b]IS[/b] that, when indeed it is the evil opposite.

The spirit of my post, I hope, was not to identify you as one easily deceived, merely in that you posted a few lines from a spiritual poem. My hope was to identify a grievous error in the way we think about ATONEMENT, which in turn is fundamental in the way we think about Christ Jesus, and our worship of Him. The poem in question, happened to emulate that in a most subtle way.

I appreciate your insights also, as you point out the same in the Hypocrisy of the same [b]RELIGIOUS[/b] spirit in Protestantism today that will kill you just the same. Satan has a forked tongue. He licks the fire at the same time from both ends. Kinda like politics.

As I said, this was not personal, in any way. I just know how these people [spirits] work. The self sacrifice, ie; atoning by works or suffering is very subtle. and to me apparent in the post. I tried to make it clear to you, by saying to you that the pure, all things are pure, but you yet seem to take this as a slam on your spirituality, which it wasn't. You are right . seekers usually mean, in today's vernacular, those
who are seeking after the real God. But, you posting here on S.I., and being excited about a treasure you found, [ the poem] and wanting to share it, made it clear that you were a Christian. I too have explored all manner of Christian writings, and some Catholic Mystics. I think that this is healthy, as long as we remain transparent to our Christian family, as you seem to do. I became very grieved as I saw the evil in some. I was always testing the Spirits, though, not looking for dinner.

Remember, that this day, now, wherever the true church of Jesus encroaches on "Catholic territory", there is trouble, especially in Mexico and So. America. The persecution rages on today, with some bloodshed.

The same spirit has murdered more Christian men, women, and children, in their terrorist tactics, than all of the rest of the persecutors combined, in the history of the World....some say millions.

This will end my involvement in this thread, as I have exhausted my inspiration here. Keep on as the Bereans do, LOR-E...Tom