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CHARISMA QUESTIONS AGAIN!! -Lakeland Revival

sermonindex Jun 5, 2008


[b]CHARISMA QUESTIONS AGAIN!! -Lakeland Revival[/b]

J. LEE GRADY:
"In recent days, people who were touched in Lakeland have started
similar meetings in Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte, N.C. and other
cities. Bentley and his colleagues believe this is the beginning of
a worldwide healing revival that will cover the globe.

"But not everyone in the charismatic/Pentecostal community is
convinced. Some say this is the last end-time revival while others
maintain it is a demonic counterfeit. Cult-watchers and anti-heresy
bloggers post Bentley’s comments on YouTube as evidence of a
theological scandal. Revival advocates respond by posting
documented evidence of healings. It all begins to resemble a
childish competition.

"Still others worry that Lakeland represents a questionable mixture
of truth and error. Since the initial eruption of the revival, my inbox
has been full of messages from charismatic leaders who are
concerned about weighty issues as well as trivial ones: Everything
from Bentley’s tattoos and body piercings to his claim that he once
interviewed the apostle Paul in heaven.

"When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some
aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a
“religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

"I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any
statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these
nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly
at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit
what the devil wants to do.

"When the early church was hit with the issue of Jewish legalism,
Paul and Barnabas determined that the answer was to seek the
counsel of “the apostles and elders” in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2, NASB).
The church was being divided because the legalists were insisting
that gentiles be circumcised. But when the elders looked into the
matter, the apostle James settled the dispute by issuing this wise ruling:

“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the gentiles, but that we write to them
that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from
fornication and from what is strangled and from blood” (v. 19-20).
In other words, James affirmed the gentiles’ access to salvation
and overturned the legalists’ bad doctrine.

"Based on this biblical example, I am appealing to the elders in our
movement. We need to hear from them in this hour. In a desperate
moment we need older, seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord..

"Today the charismatic movement has become fractured, and
opposing camps have formed. On one side there are those in the
apostolic camp who tend to emphasize biblical order, proper
church government, spiritual warfare and the reformation of society.
On the other side are those in the prophetic camp who focus on
miracles, healing, mystical experiences and the reclaiming of all
the supernatural manifestations of the New Testament.

"Both of these camps are contending for valid, biblical truths. We
need the prophetic and the apostolic! We need miracles as much
as we need healthy church growth and societal change. Yet if we
do not have a holy intervention, we could bite and devour one
another—and cancel out our collective impact.

"A biblical council must include the leaders of both of these camps.
And leaders must address all of the difficult issues triggered by
the Lakeland Revival. Those include:

"1. Biblical guidelines about angels. Some people in the prophetic
camp speak of frequent visits to heaven, “third heaven revelations,”
and long conversations with angels who use names such as
Emma, Promise and Winds of Change. Are these indeed spirits
sent from God, or agents of false light?

"2. A proper theology of the dead. Some in the prophetic camp
claim they have had conversations with dead Christians—including
Paul the apostle. Is this within the bounds of Christian experience,
or is it necromancy?

"3. Pastoral guidance about exotic spiritual manifestations. In
some circles in our movement, unusual signs and wonders have
been reported in church services—including the sudden appearance
of gold dust, feathers, gemstones and oil. At the same time,
worshipers are vibrating on the floor, jerking uncontrollably and
acting intoxicated. How can we protect people from the abuse of
manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same
time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?

"4. Clear guidelines concerning the restoration of fallen ministers.
The appearance of one prominent fallen evangelist, Paul Cain, at
the Lakeland Revival in May unleashed strong reactions from
many sectors of the church. Many people feel unprotected when
they sense that church leaders have chosen not to enforce proper
discipline for a minister’s unbiblical behavior. In this adulterous
generation, how can we draw lines to protect congregations while
at the same time offer healing and grace to a repentant preacher?

"These are some of the crucial questions we face as a movement.
May we proceed with a fresh gift of discernment, while at the
same time laying hold of all the blessings that revival will bring us."
[END QUOTE - Source- www.charismamag.com/fireinmybones ]

K
KennLove Jun 5, 2008

Blessings, brother Greg!

I may not be one to shoulder an opinion on anyone else, but this question came to my mind as I read this posted article: Why? Why would our God choose such aspects as described herein in the experiential outpouring of the claims by these folks?
It seems to me that the God I know, who abhors divisiveness, and is all about unity in the Body of Christ unto all believers, would NOT want such examples, such destructive demonstrations called as signs and wonders, to be displayed and claimed, thereby setting back all he has accomplished thus far.
How is peace proclaimed in these manifestations? Or unity? Or conformity to the image of Jesus?
Like I said, I may not be the one most versed on an opinion here, but this seeming carnival freakshow proclaims the work of a master-manipulator, not a sovereign, leading, ever-loving God.
Thanks for listening,
Kenn
1Thessalonians 5:23

H
HeartSong Jun 5, 2008

I prayed about this:

How can we protect people from the abuse of manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?

And this is what the Lord put on my heart:

"My people must turn to me - they must turn from their wicked ways. These perplexing things that are before you are the result of vanity and fornication. The leaves of righteousness will be shown as the truth of the word that comes forth - the word of life and not the perverted utterances that fly about as if there is no place to land.

There is beauty in all that I do - an elegance of form that flows forth - a pure stream void of the pollution that lies before you. Keep your eyes steadily upon Me and the way will be made clear. These perversions are the result of your lust - lust for self gratification that has no concern for the well being of others and denies the truth of My word. The truth lies in Me, and Me alone. Beware the foolish practices of unconverted men.

The masses will fall into the trap - only the few will survive. Rest in Me, and Me alone. Assurance of Me is the only answer - this alone will save your life."

sermonindex Jun 5, 2008

It seems to me that the God I know, who abhors divisiveness, and is all about unity in the Body of Christ unto all believers, would NOT want such examples, such destructive demonstrations called as signs and wonders, to be displayed and claimed, thereby setting back all he has accomplished thus far.

Thats a great question. Have you considered that perhaps this "movement" is not of God, but instead of demonic roots, and thats why there is no peace or unity... and so much division?

The Bible refers to "doctrines of demons". Most Christians, even many on this forum, will refuse to use that term because it is risky... and not considered "loving", but judgemental.

But this is the term the Bible uses. And doctrines of demons will never be in unity with the doctrines of God.

This is why you dont see how there can be unity regarding this. The Charismatic Movement has not wanted sound doctrine for decades... and God is now allowing [b]some[/b] (not all) of them to have what they want.

By the way, that is an excellent editorial from Charisma. He's on the right track, I just think he's asking the wrong people.

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 5, 2008

I'll put this out there because I have to go. But here's my struggle with the 'unity' banter.

If scripture says that there will be many false prophets and teachers leading many astray and to not be deceived by this....then how can there possibly unity? I'm not for chaos or disorder, this stuff breaks my heart. At the same time I'm not so sure that 'unity' can be attained by an 'effort' by the 'church'. Especially when scripture says that people who are considered in the church will turn away from sound doctrine. I think Christ himself is the only one that will able to 'unify', I believe it's beyond our 'efforts', so I have to question it.

sermonindex Jun 5, 2008

coley... I agree.

Krispy

T
Thommy2 Jun 5, 2008

Amen

J
JoanM Jun 5, 2008

Has it not been again and again and again.

I remember Jude.
[b]Apostasy was up and running in what 30 years?[/b]

The unity we endeavor to keep, is the unity of the Spirit. That would be the Holy Spirit of God. With so many of His functions and so much of His character detailed in the Word of God, is He so hard to recognize?

Remember dox-ology and praise in affirmation of truth.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

P.S. It is not surprising that men who all their life have feared death should fear the death of self. (I don't see where this would fit on this site. No one famous that I know of said it)

C
Compton Jun 6, 2008

I'm often reluctant to pile on in topics like these, but today I heard a recording of Todd Bentley giving one of his testimonies. Now, I am truly pained over division among professing Christians today, but some wantonly abuse such sincerity. How elastic can we be before being forced to choose unity over the Gospel?

So he's got me in this meeting, and he's leading this meeting...this little charismatic catholic meeting, and they're focusing on the gifts of the spirit. And as I'm sitting there I hear the audible voice of the lord and here's what god says to me: he says 'Todd, go up to Frenchie and tell him you have a demon.' And I said 'what?...I'm hearing the voice of god, and the audible voice of god says to me, a spirit filled born again Christian praying hours a day, reading the New Testament in one sitting. I mean in church... you know I was in men's group on Tuesday night, in church on Sunday, and mass on Monday. Like anywhere... that I was out on the streets every day. I was like "What? Tell him I have a demon?! I said 'How could I have a demon?' You know, 'I don't have a demon?!' He said, 'Yeah, I want you to go tell him that you have a demon.'

And so right in the middle of this service I walk right up to him, and I, I whisper into his ear "Frenchie, I have a (makes choking sound) and I start manifesting a demon. In fact it wasn't my voice anymore. I was so posseses by this spirit that literally my voice started speaking in another voice. Yet I was still aware of the fact that I'm Todd Bentley. I'm here. There's a voice speaking out of my mouth that's not my voice. But I have no control. I can't, I can't get myself back, and I can feel something rising up and through my flesh; not my spirit but through my flesh, there's a demonic power controlling me.

It throws me onto the floor, and I start writhing like a snake. I smash the coffee table, and I starts (sic) grabbing people in the room and I'm just throwing them around, up against the bookcase. I mean I'm thrashing this ladies house. And I'm like an uncontrollable writhing serpent on the floor speaking in a different voice in cursing and profanities coming out of my mouth.

And as that's happening I'm saying, 'I love Jesus. This can't be happening to me. I don't have demons. I love Jesus.' And the whole time I'm cursing the very people I love. And I'm, I can't stop you know? And so he jumps on me and he starts performing deliverance. And the first spirt to come out of me was fear. That was the first demon, it was a demon of fear. Then he starts dealing with all of these other demonic spirits."*

Is any commentary needed here? I feel this testimony is it's own tragic warning.

MC

*a transcription of an excerpt from Todd Bentley

R
RobertW Jun 6, 2008

Is any commentary needed here? I feel this testimony is it's own tragic warning.

When has there ever been such an overflow of deception and lies? It's like a damn of confusion and lies has broken and is drowning whole churches in devilishness? It is hard to believe that this whole madness has even gained enough traction to be taken seriously. But I think we need to be ready to give an answer on these lies whenever necessary. This is like a multitude of wolves unleashed in one man.

R
RobertW Jun 6, 2008

I found the clip MC is talking about and it is horrifying. The glib way he tells the story is shocking; 25 demons cast out of him, cursing people he loved and tearing down the house speaking in another voice. It took 8 people to hold him down? Writhing like a snake on the floor. He admits to having been involved in the occult, satanic worship and all kind of 'crazy stuff'. He used to beat his mother, but repented on his wedding day. he tries to say a demon beat his mother and broke her arm- but he was blamed for it. If you care to know it is Google keywords Todd Bentley - possed (it is misspelled on the site).


R
RobertW Jun 6, 2008

I want to add an additional comment here and say categorically that God does not share the Temple of the Holy Spirit with Demons. To suggest such is to border on blasphemy. It is one thing to say a believer can be oppressed by demons and a whole different thing to say a Spirit filled believer can be possessed by 25 demons and then manifest those demons.

[color=000066]No one can go into a strong man's house and carry off his possessions without first tying up the strong man. Then he can ransack his house. (Mark 3:27 ISV)[/color]

To suggest that the Holy Spirit was unable to drive those demons from the man at salvation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit or was willing to share the Temple with devils is utterly blasphemy. Hath not God commanded us that we cannot be partakers of the Table of Christ and the Table of devils? How much more would God had driven out the demons from a man as Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers? Would God share a Temple with Baal or Molech? What about 25 Baal's, Asteroth's or Molech's?

This is nothing more than an exaltation of demonic powers and a gross undermining of what God accomplishes with the New Birth. if a person has passed from death to life and from the power of Satan to the power of God- wherein are all these demons manifesting in this man? This is blasphemous falsehood that storms the foundations of Truth from the gates of hell. Stand fast my brethren! Be BOLD and of GOOD COURAGE! Do not fear their miracles or lying signs and wonders. Be not deceived- for you will know them by their fruits!

F
Fuegodedios Jun 6, 2008

One of the shocking things to me is when I hear people say all the time I have seen an angel or I have seen God( I believe people can encounter God but the results that are present day are not biblical). when you read Isaiah 6, Act 9 or the opening passages of the book of revelation and ezekiel chapter one. You will see a totally different result from what we see in a lot of modern day christians today. John, paul, Ezekiel, and Isaiah were broken.John, to such and extent that he fell down like he was dead and saul became paul God changes a man when he meet true authority his ego pride and self life are destroyed and utterly broken. what about Job when he saw God he said.

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42.

You don't see this with some of the so called signs and wonders guys these days there is a lack of the fear of God a lack of holiness and devotion to christ.they are like little boys and girls playing marbles with Gods diamonds.

When people start to talk about seeing God or having some kind of supernatural revelation. It always amazes me that they do not have that brokeness and humility that was manafested in the old prophets and apostles. The whole experience is focused on one individual. This is one reason I know something is fishy when these things are not christ centered but man centered and focused on one man or woman. because of it everyone runs behind that one individual and says hey this is the next big revival this is Gods next prophet of the hour. Can God manifest himself yes, can God open our eyes to the spirit realm yes. But, when it is man, centered angel centered without a biblical foundation and selfish I doubt that God is moving at all. a few points I use when dealing with these things are

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If jesus is really the focus of a manifestation he will be lifed not men. if men are lifted then folks will follow the man and not christ.

John 16:13-14
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If there is a move of the spirit he will Glorifiy Jesus. him crucified, buried, and resurrected. He will convict us of sin and sanctify us according to truth John 17:17 because he is the spirit of truth.

Also if it is a move of the spirit the (holy spirit) Holiness would be the result of such things because his name expresses one of his major functions and that is to make anything that associates with him Holy. for a believer to say they are demon possesed is crazy my God help us. I would be questioning myself "well is this person really saved"?

Brothers I did not say all of that with a nasty spirit just out of concern.

:-)

sermonindex Jun 6, 2008

Fuegodedios... that was awesome. Amen!

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 6, 2008


We need a "Counsels of seasoned Elders" from "both camps", as much as we need our eyes gouged out with a red hot poker.

Both of these "camps" are contending for VALID BIBLICAL TRUTHS?

This is demagoguery at it's heights. Maybe [i]his[/i] camp is divided, but not the Lord's. Bentley's anointed by Demons, and for the record, this move has to do with lying prophets; lets not mix in the holy prophetic.

Contending for Biblical Truth???? Are you out of your mind? you mean contending for control, not truth. If you [Lee Grady] cannot see the embracing of the Demonic experience here, and want to moderate how much poison the true church should swallow, all in the name of unity, have at it. your reward will be the same as theirs. That is the one given to false prophets and deceivers.

This is the same guy who honors Benny Hinn, and all of these wolves, and has for decades. He's in bed with them![pardon the comparison, considering the foulness of those he wants to compromise with.]

The charismatic movement began, and has it's roots in the "Renewal" movement of the late 60s, when Catholics were received into mainstream Pentecostal and "Spirit Filled " churches[ unrepentant Mary and Pope worshippers] Charisma magazine , I believe, is simply an arm embracing this unholy plethora of doctrines, advocating experience as a validation of true Faith.

To me, Charisma magazine is irrelevant and useless. A tool of "Ecumenalism." that espouses unity without holy and true doctrine. It is not surprising to see this type of appeal emerge from this worldly and corrupt rag.

He endorsed, flip-flopped; endorsed flip- flopped...why? If this Bentley thing grows as it could, you had better be on it's side' if you want big circulation.

Grady is a successful editor of a religious, and probably Catholic magazine, but has zero authority to call for any thing to do with the true church, and its commission. He is irrelevant.

"What the church held sacred for 2000 years, holy doctrine, was vandalized in one generation by the Charismatic Ecumenical [all embracing], Renewal." CLAYT SONMORE....There- by.."Charisma'

sermonindex Jun 6, 2008

Amen Brother!

F
Fuegodedios Jun 6, 2008

That's blessed brothertom

H
hmmhmm Jun 6, 2008

Im more and more becoming certain people are not deceived, there just not saved.

No person can follow this man and have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling inside them.

As all of Israel bowed to the golden statue Nebuchadnezzar had made, so many christians bow to things like this.

Of all Gods chosen people, his children, Four did not bow if we include Daniel.

of hundreds of thousands believers, four did not bow.

I think the % is about the same today.


Col 2:18 [b]Let no man beguile you[/b] of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, [b]or an angel from heaven[/b], preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, [b]let him be accursed.[/b]


These people are accursed, and God lets them be accursed and allows them to follow this man/movement.

For those who have their doubts, i warn you to get away from this, God says in his word that if any man continues to follow such things this will be the result

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


These times are here

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The temple is gone, the church is here, right now we have men "preaching" and opposeth and exalthet themself and their words above God and all that is written.

Flee

sermonindex Jun 6, 2008

Agreed Brothertom. And just who are the 'elders' that he is talking of? Perhaps Grady should look at character more than doctrine. As he states:

"When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some
aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a
“religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

"I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any
statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these
nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly
at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit
what the devil wants to do."

It seems many things are blamed on a 'spirit'. I don't know what was written or if he got as many nasty mails from critics of this movement but the character of the e-mail represents the character of the person. And it sounds like the character is lacking in good fruit. But Grady seemingly dismisses this and goes straight to what I think is an administrative solution to a spiritual problem.

As a frequent critic of this false movement(though I've never e-mailed Grady), I'm not 'contending' for Biblical truth....either I have it or I do not. God's truth is unwavering so I'm not (nor can I) trying to convince God to see things my way. Therefore any contention of truth will not be arbitrated by man, neither from the least nor the greatest. Jesus will divide the sheep and the goats, that's not our job. And it will be done with perfect justice. Whether or not I have the necessary discernment to rightly divide scripture has nothing to do with how well I debate or contend for the truth....but has everything to do with how much time I spend with the Lord in complete humility knowing that I have ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH OR DISCERNMENT WITHOUT HIM, and asking Him to show me His heart, His character, HIS TRUTH. There's no contending here, only the brokenness and humility that recognizes that I bring nothing to the Throne of God myself, only the hope and faith that He will hear my pleas and petitions for wisdom, forgiveness, love, and those things that protect me from not being led astray.

You know whenever you hear of a Pastor falling from grace the first thing 'the church' does is gather the 'elders' and go through the administrative protocols for picking their next leader. Rarely do I ever see fasting and praying for the Lord to handpick someone or the 'elders' gathering together on their knees to ask the Lord to show them what may have gone wrong and how to correct it according to His perfect will. And true to form, like the individual churches, the corporate church just wants to gather a bunch of scholars or people of influence to come to some agreement on 'truth' concerning the many errant doctrines and orations a so-called prophet in Lakeland has been propagating. Just the fact that there is a call by Grady for the elders in 'both camps' to resolve some issues should speak volumes about this movement. He should account for his own personal concern about Lakeland and reconcile it before he goes off on a healing crusade to mend camps. He didn't have to write that first article, what are if any, are his concerns? Forget all of the diplomatic fluff, I would like to know what the Lord is speaking to this man of God about all of this.

C
Compton Jun 6, 2008

People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

Hi everyone,

This kind of self-referencing rhetoric is a wake up call to me that too many in the evangelical Church are ignoring God's word in the Bible, to chase after God's word individually and subjectively. Todd Bentley is an acute example of this mindset, but I fear it is widespread in just about every branch of the 'bible-believing' church today. The shift from basing our faith on the Word of God, to rooting our faith in some profound spiritual experience with God is understandable, but I think it is not exactly the same as those old paths we long for.

In the interest of being agreeable and teachable, I occasionally hope my concerns here are indications that I am just an old religous curmudgeon. I wonder if I too will be zapped and carried to new dimensions of revelation and experience that so many around me are having. Yet then I see the wreckage such thinking leaves in not only the lives of others, but also in my own sorry past...and I can't escape that sola scriptura seems to be the safest path for me and my family.

You ask me how I know he lives? He lives within my heart. Oh my...when we hold our own 'heart experience' to be the anchor for our faith, we are essentially anchor-less. The bible is the Word of God and prophets and preachers today should exposit God's word by his Spirit; they don't freelance. (I don't think that is cessasionist, but if it is...where do I sign up?)

Of course many prophets and preachers aren't spirit-led expositors. God supposedly has revealed to them whole catalogs of dates, facts and figures that aren't in scripture. Well, I suppose they have a right to prophesy and preach out of their own thoughts, feelings, experiences, and passions. But they have no right to expect anyone to listen to them. If what you are prophesying, preaching, or teaching isn't essentially a spirit-led exposition of specific scripture passages, you aren't speaking with much authority, biblically speaking. (Even if your'e pretty smart and informed!)

Now we are free to speak for ourselves, as experts and even simpletons, throughout the day as we conduct our affairs. We discuss our plans for business, our opinions of sports or politics, or even religion. That is part of being human. Yet, especially these days, when we desire to represent truth from God as an objective reality beyond our own arbitrary perspectives, we had better open our bibles...even before we open our hearts.

Many dear christians, often well meaning and sincere, have hopped in a runaway car without brakes to find inward experience and affirmation. The advice I'm trying to give to my family while barreling down this dark subjective highway is "Buckle up with the Word of God children."

Despite today's well meaning emphasis on having a personal inward experience, we are ultimately saved because of what happened on the outside of us...the cross of Christ. The cross is real. It was witnessed and recorded in God's word. It's history. Trust the glorious Gospel without question, and leave subjective feelings and uncertain experience with the old man you've buried. Hallelujah!

MC


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