"A babycan die,within minute after it's born, and they have not sinned."
Babies dying only prove that sin is not the cause of physical death.
Babies can not sin, for the do not know any law to rebel against.
There natures are not "sinfull", untill they are accountable.
As I said, we all still physically die because we are all subject to vanity and are under the bondage of corruption.
God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)
Even though we would stop sinning would not stop the corrupting(decaying) of our bodies.
Psalm 51; vs. 5
A Perspective on Psalm 51:5
by William P. Murray, Jr.
Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:
2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which
Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”
Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite
king:
1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”
1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”
David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash's former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.
2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse's first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David's mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's
half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the
naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.
29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”
...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as `true' a son as his halfbrothers.
Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected `all' his sons, to the
sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring `his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....
1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”
....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the `least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)
David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because `no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation' (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered `defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17
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Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.
Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love.
The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.
However, all mankind is able to do that which they do not want to do.
John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...
While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree (born from above), we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root (effections on himself). Or he may also be worldly (effections on the world), for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.
Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.
What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
James 1:24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.
What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.
What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.
Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.
[b]as by one man sin entered into the world:[/b]Just that, the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam.
and through sin, death through that paticular sin, physical death came.
[b]so also death passed to all men[/b]
physical death passed to all because the way to the tree of life was cut off and in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)
Physical death, not spiritual death.
We all become spiritually dead after the age of accountability because of sin, therefore, we are all soulish, flesh driven in nature, being lead by the lusts of our flesh....
[b]upon all whom have sinned[/b]
but not to the extent that in the future all sined alredy.
Since sinnless perfection is possible to attain, it is because the center is around a mutual loving relationship.
Not around devotion, but mutual love for each other, not just His love for us.
Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.
Therfore, why would you persist in sin if you love God?
All it takes is love. Why would you sin &/or keep sinning if you love HIM?
What is it with sin that you need to defend it?
What is overcoming the devil if it ain't the cessation if sin?
Notice, they did not love their lives to death, in contrast, they loved Christ(the Lamb) in stead.
This is pertaining to persecution.
What or WHOM is their testimony?
It isn't "how they got saved"
I'll ask you the same question that I asked Thommy2
Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on Earth right now.
And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?
I'll ask you the same question that I asked Thommy2
Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on Earth right now.
And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?
