"Pagan Christianity"-by Frank Viola

"Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola, I bought this book today, I had heard about it for some time, but I was wondering what did the SermonIndex family who have read this book, view about it? What are some of your thoughts?

Have not read it...but have heard from other brothers who have read this book. Their only comment was on Violas and Barnas hardlined stance on 'house churches' and their fresh insight into the issue of water baptism.

Would like to read it some time but would like to hear others who have read, including you, "blazed by God."

Ruach34 wrote:
Have not read it...but have heard from other brothers who have read this book. Their only comment was on Violas and Barnas hardlined stance on 'house churches' and their fresh insight into the issue of water baptism.

Would like to read it some time but would like to hear others who have read, including you, "blazed by God."

Ok, I will make sure I give you and update as I read it-thanks for replying.

What did your friends commemt as far as Viola & Barnas "...hardlined stance on house churches"?

Here is an older thread;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21244&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Frank Viola - Shaking Up Church[/url]

Hi BlazedbyGod,

I have read this book a few years ago. I am all for homechurch, so I enjoyed much in this book. Although it has keen insights into many issues, there seemed to be an underlying disdain for anyone who did not agree wholeheartedly with their stance that any form of organized church was to be avoided and rebuked. They make you feel as if you are a compromiser if you have anything to do with them(organized church) at all, other than rebuking them. It seemed a little arrogant at times.

Some of the things that they say are true and need to be heeded, other things that they seem to make a big deal over seem to be petty, and minor things.

I also loved the wonderful insights on water baptism that they shared. The church seems to have replaced baptism with the modern day "altar call"

I think you can receive much good, just don't pick-up on the negativity.

blessings, bonni

Another thing I liked about this book was that it supported the plurality of elders biblically.

bonni

I think you can receive much good, just don't pick-up on the negativity

If one has to be so cautious about reading a work, why bother reading it? Are there no other books better that would be more edifying?

Just a question - or an opinion, perhaps?...maybe others have more time on their hands then I do...

ginnyrose

Basically, my friend that read this book noticed that Viola and Barna would recommend no other way to conduct 'church' than in the house church format. It sounded like they bashed the traditional 'church' context.

Anyway...this is coming from third-hand source (me) so it is not accurate.

ginnyrose quoted

" If one has to be so cautious about reading a work, why bother reading it? Are there no other books better that would be more edifying?

Just a question - or an opinion, perhaps?...maybe others have more time on their hands then I do..."

ginnyrose

I definetly agree with not wasting time when there are many godly books to read that are edifying.

I don't think there are many books on this subject, and I do think that it is very timely in this age where apostacy is flourishing.

I didn't have a problem reading this book and receiving much eye-opening information. I have seen others though that take everything in the book and "run with it" to the extent of cutting themselves off from fellowship (with anyone that attended any "organized" fellowship) and much needed personal accountability. Pride entered in and they fell away from God.

Now I do not in anyway mean to imply that it was only because of this book, but I think some of the ideas or mindsets in this book may of fed that spiritual pride that was already lurking in this brothers heart.

In saying this, I guess it's not so much being cautious about reading this work but more of being cautious of who's hands it gets into, hopefully not an overly zealous novice, unless there are brothers who can help him discern where to draw the lines in some of the extremes.

Overall I am glad that I read it. I think they are sincere godly men trying to wake up the body of Christ to be just that...the body, functioning as the body with many members, not sitting under one man (that you are paying a wage) to spoon feed you once a week. That is definetly not the apostolic way!

Receive the truths contained within it, act on it in tempered love, gentleness, meekness.

Read it once, but don't make a steady diet of it, in other words, Don't let these truths become your focus. Walking in humility and obedience to Christ, doing His will in love, for His glory needs to be our focus.

God Bless, bonni

I would just like to say that Pagan is not to build you up. It is more of a resource than a book that establishes a model. If you have read Pagan, or are reading Pagan, I would encourage you to read Rethinking the Wineskin. This gives the proper balance to that book. Pagan is like an encyclopeda. It is filled with alot of information, small and great. Pagan is not meant to establish you and build you up (imo). It is meant to give you some good information about organized church practice.

Once again I encourage those who have read this book, or are reading it to also read Rethinking the Wineskin.

I've read about 3/4 of the book. It is true that the author pulls out a lot of good historical facts, and some of the information is kind of helpful. But, it's certainly not edifying in the Spirit in terms of building one up in the faith or teaching sound doctrine of the Word or encouraging in the least.

I agree with Josef here. I have also read about 3/4 of the book and honestly had to take it about a paragraph at a time and then set it down. It is like trying to do surgery with a machete. The 'spirit' of the book is entirely too hostile. I'm pretty familiar with the whole "Out of church" movement, but even that preparation did not prepare me for this book.

Pagan is like an encyclopeda. It is filled with alot of information, small and great. Pagan is not meant to establish you and build you up (imo). It is meant to give you some good information about organized church practice.

The trouble with this approach is that one can find a parallel for almost everything we do, even in a house church meeting, if we look long and hard enough in history. I reject this approach to measuring our practices as many measures and methods we have of expressing our faith have non-Christian parallels. The Messianic Jews use this approach to overthrow many traditions in the Church and then insert their own. We need to return to the New Testament to gain some understanding of how to express our religion; but it would be folly to say that right here on the Internet we are practicing a pagan ritual because pagans use the Internet also. This is the finality of that approach. We would be left with almost no real means of expression, because the world has counterfeited so many of the things of God.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
If you approach this book as "informative" and "educational" concerning where the institutional church got most of what it believes to be Biblical traditions, this book is an excellent resource.

I dont think book was ever intended to be an encouragement to the Body... it was meant to educate the Body and open the eyes of those who need to be opened. The encouragement part comes when your eyes are opened up to the fact that we hold to many traditions that simply have no root in scripture, but rather in paganism.... and then you become free from those traditions! That subsequent freedom associated with this knowledge is the "encouragement" and "building up" part.

There is power and freedom in knowledge of the truth.

Krispy

Amen Krispy, and I will say of myself-I personally have been encouraged by what I have read thus far in the book-I have been very much encouraged, edified, and Blessed.

And I migh add as well, it is indeed refreshing to read of the such beauty and emphasis he puts on Christ being the Headship of his Church (bride/body) -remarkably beautiful, in a Church age that has seemingly forgotten this.

Krispy wrote

" There is power and freedom in knowledge of the truth."

I agree with this. I'm so thankful that where I attend church there are 3 elders who share in the responsiblility of shepherding and they don't stand behind a pulpit. All of the men are welcome to share, or comment, or "judge" during the meeting. There is much freedom to operate as the body of Christ, but there is also order.

I also realize that a good "formula" doesn't guarantee healthy body life. The life of God alone can edify and bring growth to the body.

I would much rather attend a "traditional, organized church" where the people had the vibrant life of God present than to attend a fellowship that was "doing church" the apostolic way, but were dead and lifeless.

I have to say that the ideal is to have a fellowship where the people are not bound by the traditions that hinder true body life, functioning without the hinderances that the institutional church system brings. There is great freedom and opportunity when this is the case, if you have people that are vitally real with God.

Blessings, bonni

they don't stand behind a pulpit.

Some churches have the "speaker" sit on a bar stool. Would that be better than a pulpit?

I've preached with a garbage can as my "pulpit." Is that better than a piece of wood or glass? Or just as "dirty?" :-)

I don't mean to come off wrong, but it just seems silly to me. Maybe we should debate about whether a "preacher" should ware lace-up shoes or Velcro.

I'm sorry brother (preach parsley). I should of clarified myself, it is just hard sometimes to cover every side or thought in a small post.

It would be better to say I'm glad that one man doesn't take over the service in a way that the other men feel like they could not participate, just sit in the pew and be spoon fed. That seems to be the feeling when one man gets up and stands in the front, instead of sitting with the rest of the body.

That's not to say that there is no place for a man to stand behind a pulpit and preach towards the people, like in an open air service,or a very large church or gathering it would probably be neccesary, or when an evangelist or missionary etc comes to speak, we obviously want to give them our undivided attention. But in everyday (or week) church body life it seems to stifle participation.

I hope that clarifies it. There is certainly nothing "wrong" with standing behind a pulpit, or on a platform, even if the world (pagans) started this tradition. Many things can be used of the world that are not inherently evil within themselves, I just think it's more productive to sit with the people and encourage body interaction.

Blessings, bonni :-)

I'm sorry brother (preach parsley). I should of clarified myself, it is just hard sometimes to cover every side or thought in a small post.

No problem. I haven't read the book but I was thinking you were saying something in the same vein as Josef said the book conveyed.

For example, it's not *evil* to preach from behind a pulpit or to go to a building that is set aside purposely for meeting, though the book would have you think you're almost a pagan for doing it.

Thanks for clearing it up.