Women teaching?

I recently entered a discussion with a church leader about women teaching and preaching. I checked recent posts for duplicates but could not find any so I am starting this one.

1. Cor 14: 33-38
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]

1 Timothy 2:9-15
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
From these and other verses in the bible I understand that women should not teach in church meetings where men are present and also hold no office as elders or deacons.
I still believe that women can do a lot in God’s kingdom and that there are inexhaustible and wonderful opportunities for them to serve in and outside the body of Christ.
These verses appear very plain to me, yet there are many leaders and scholars that believe that women can teach men and can be leaders. I do not trust theologians just because they are theologians and there are many who twist the scriptures. I personally feel uncomfortable to listen to a women teaching regardless how skillful or annointed her message.

Any comments? May the storm break loose.

narrowpath

May the storm break loose indeed! You have just started one.

Despite the scriptures you have used, and they are very clear, people will use reasoning, analogy, supposition etc, to defend their position. Whatever that position may be.

Let battle commence.

i agree completely with Krispy.

a long time ago i was to give a lesson on this and well it has always been a controversial topic, so i prayed for a while and waited for God to give me a clear answer in order to get a "go" to teach on it and he did.

women should not teach over men, it is not correct for a Woman to pastor and in a way command a church but when she goes home she is submissive to her husband. This is just one thought out of many on the subject but the scriptures are very clear and the answer i got from the Lord forever convicted me on the subject.

This doesn't require waiting on the Lord to give some new revelation.

The answer is settled in the Scriptures brought up in the original post.

Women, while they are not are slaves, are not to teach in the church.

As Krispy, Taylor, and of few others have said, and even more importantly, the Bible itself with the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul in the noted Scriptures-the scriptures make this topic/issue very plain-women were not to teach,preach, or lead the Church- This is true whether you participate in the instutionalized organization of Christianity, or whether you partake the in the more organic-house church.

I agree 100% with what Krispy, Taylor, and Alf said, because what they all said is of the Holy Scripture.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ga 3:28
There is neither male nor female. Neither the male nor the female have any peculiar advantages for salvation. There are no favours shown on account of sex. Both sexes are, in this respect, on a level. This does not mean, of course, that the sexes are to be regarded as in all respects equal; nor can it mean that the two sexes may not have peculiar duties and privileges in other respects. It does not prove that one of the sexes may not perform important offices in the church, which would not be proper for the other. It does not prove that the duties of the ministry are to be performed by the female sex; nor that the various duties of domestic life, nor the various offices of society, should be performed without any reference to the distinction of sex. The interpretation should be confined to the matter under consideration; and the passage proves only that in regard to salvation they are on a level. One sex is not to be regarded as peculiarly the favourite of heaven, and the other to be excluded. Christianity thus elevates the female sex to an equality with the male, on the most important of all interests; and it has in this way made most important changes in the world wherever it has prevailed. Everywhere but in connexion with the Christian religion, woman has been degraded. She has been kept in ignorance. She has been treated as an inferior in all respects. She has been doomed to unpitied drudgery, and ignorance, and toil. So she was among the ancient Greeks and Romans; so she is among the savages of America; so she is in China, and India, and in the islands of the sea; so she is regarded in the Koran, and in all Mohammedan countries. It is Christianity alone which has elevated her; and nowhere on earth does man regard the mother of his children as an intelligent companion and friend, except where the influence of the Christian religion has been felt. At the communion table, at the foot of the cross, and in the hopes of heaven, she is on a level with man; and this fact diffuses a mild, and purifying, and elevating influence over all the relations of life. Woman has been raised from deep degradation by the influence of Christianity; and, let me add, she has everywhere acknowledged the debt of gratitude, and devoted herself, as under a deep sense of obligation, to lessening the burdens of humanity, and to the work of elevating the degraded, instructing the ignorant, and comforting the afflicted, all over the world. Never has a debt been better repaid, or the advantages of elevating one portion of the race been more apparent.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ac 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

The apostle Paul mentions several women who were helpers with him at the close of his letters and one even had a house church.

In Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Acts 18:26
They took him unto them - This eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, who was even a public teacher, was not ashamed to be indebted to the instructions of a Christian woman, in matters that not only concerned his own salvation, but also the work of the ministry, in which he was engaged. It is disgraceful to a man to be ignorant, when he may acquire wisdom; but it is no disgrace to acquire wisdom from the meanest person or thing. The adage is good: Despise not advice, even of the meanest: the gaggling of geese preserved the Roman state.

It is clear from scripture that we all need to (including myself) pray and study the word more before we come to a conclusion about God's children regardless of the color of skin or whether male or female.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of all the scriptures mentioned in the bible concerning women being silent and not teaching nor usurping authority over the man needs not to be taken out of context. If a woman is married she is under the authority of her own husband. If she is single and out from under her parents, then no man is head over her, only Christ.

The bible even tells us in 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This should tell us brethren it's not male of female it is the anointing that teaches you. I'm sure we all know some men who are not biblical that we don't want teaching us. Personally, I don't want a man or a women who has not been dealt with by the cross teaching me the word of God. I would not dare tell a woman (because she is a woman) that she cannot preach, teach, or work for the Lord when she has given her life to Christ and she is his humble servant serving him with the gift he has given her to the body of Christ.

I have never read where Paul nor Jesus ever meant to say that one had to check and see whether they were male or female to see if they were qualified to do any ministry He had gifted them to do.

Jesus sets the captives free - Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Sincerely in Christ,
rbanks

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ga 3:28
There is neither male nor female. Neither the male nor the female have any peculiar advantages for salvation. There are no favours shown on account of sex. Both sexes are, in this respect, on a level. This does not mean, of course, that the sexes are to be regarded as in all respects equal; nor can it mean that the two sexes may not have peculiar duties and privileges in other respects. It does not prove that one of the sexes may not perform important offices in the church, which would not be proper for the other. It does not prove that the duties of the ministry are to be performed by the female sex; nor that the various duties of domestic life, nor the various offices of society, should be performed without any reference to the distinction of sex. The interpretation should be confined to the matter under consideration; and the passage proves only that in regard to salvation they are on a level. One sex is not to be regarded as peculiarly the favourite of heaven, and the other to be excluded. Christianity thus elevates the female sex to an equality with the male, on the most important of all interests; and it has in this way made most important changes in the world wherever it has prevailed. Everywhere but in connexion with the Christian religion, woman has been degraded. She has been kept in ignorance. She has been treated as an inferior in all respects. She has been doomed to unpitied drudgery, and ignorance, and toil. So she was among the ancient Greeks and Romans; so she is among the savages of America; so she is in China, and India, and in the islands of the sea; so she is regarded in the Koran, and in all Mohammedan countries. It is Christianity alone which has elevated her; and nowhere on earth does man regard the mother of his children as an intelligent companion and friend, except where the influence of the Christian religion has been felt. At the communion table, at the foot of the cross, and in the hopes of heaven, she is on a level with man; and this fact diffuses a mild, and purifying, and elevating influence over all the relations of life. Woman has been raised from deep degradation by the influence of Christianity; and, let me add, she has everywhere acknowledged the debt of gratitude, and devoted herself, as under a deep sense of obligation, to lessening the burdens of humanity, and to the work of elevating the degraded, instructing the ignorant, and comforting the afflicted, all over the world. Never has a debt been better repaid, or the advantages of elevating one portion of the race been more apparent.

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ac 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

The apostle Paul mentions several women who were helpers with him at the close of his letters and one even had a house church.

In Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Acts 18:26
They took him unto them - This eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, who was even a public teacher, was not ashamed to be indebted to the instructions of a Christian woman, in matters that not only concerned his own salvation, but also the work of the ministry, in which he was engaged. It is disgraceful to a man to be ignorant, when he may acquire wisdom; but it is no disgrace to acquire wisdom from the meanest person or thing. The adage is good: Despise not advice, even of the meanest: the gaggling of geese preserved the Roman state.

It is clear from scripture that we all need to (including myself) pray and study the word more before we come to a conclusion about God's children regardless of the color of skin or whether male or female.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of all the scriptures mentioned in the bible concerning women being silent and not teaching nor usurping authority over the man needs not to be taken out of context. If a woman is married she is under the authority of her own husband. If she is single and out from under her parents, then no man is head over her, only Christ.

The bible even tells us in 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This should tell us brethren it's not male of female it is the anointing that teaches you. I'm sure we all know some men who are not biblical that we don't want teaching us. Personally, I don't want a man or a women who has not been dealt with by the cross teaching me the word of God. I would not dare tell a woman (because she is a woman) that she cannot preach, teach, or work for the Lord when she has given her life to Christ and she is his humble servant serving him with the gift he has given her to the body of Christ.

I have never read where Paul nor Jesus ever meant to say that one had to check and see whether they were male or female to see if they were qualified to do any ministry He had gifted them to do.

Jesus sets the captives free - Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Sincerely in Christ,
rbanks

Ability vs. order. Age old question.

Women have the ability to teach and preach, but it is God's order that says not to do so onto men.

the summit button malfunctioned, sorry about the double post.

I could be wrong, and I want God to show me when I am. He gifts and chooses whoever he pleases and there have been many men saved under the ministry of a woman of God.

Many godly men will tell you that they have learned the most about God from their mother(a woman).

by rbanks

Hi,
The Scripture is very clear that women are NOT to teach men, and not to have authority over them.

I have talked to some missionary women who have started churches overseas and have struggled with being put into the situation of having to teach men. They have made it clear to all that they did not want a position of leadership, but ended up having to do so for a period of time until a male was suitably fit for the position.

While there is no "difference" in the position male/female [b]in Christ[/b]; there is a difference of authority and the position of authority here on this earth. It is a man's job to be the protector, to be the "one who takes the heat", so to speak. Not for a woman to have to try to deal with all the enemies on the front lines herself.

(Although when God was making a point, as with Barak and Deborah, a woman killed the enemy by putting him to sleep with milk and driving a stake through his temple...but, it was almost a mark of shame to the men.)

It certainly does not mean that women have nothing worthwhile to say; and that does not limit me in my gifts. On the contrary, when I have proper authority protecting me, I have much more freedom to be who God intended me to be.

There is still much controversy regarding women speaking "at all" or prophesying in church.

(Although God can use a mule to speak, if He so chooses.)

Yet,there are still many opportunities outside of the church congregation, in smaller groups to testify, pray and have discussion.

Plus I believe that women have a lot of influence with their husbands, and when the role of the husband is proper, the expressions of joint fellowship between husband and wife are often expressed to the congregation via the husband.

This sermon by Denny Kenaston is very good regarding the place of the man. (sorry, the only way I knew how to get this was to copy the address of the link...)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12539

[i]For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church.......therefore as the church is subject to Christ....[/i]

It is not simply the expression of women inside of the church that is the issue in this matter. It is the position of the man, it is the position of the head of the man, Christ.

And when the position of Christ in the church is proper, and the position of the man under Christ is proper, then the position of the woman will not even be a question; as the body will function then as it ought to. And the woman will be [b]able[/b] to function as she was meant to, by God's design.

Just another perspective from a sister in the Lord.

In Christ,
Lori

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

All the doctrines of Christ is what is intended, not the doctrines of the Church of Man, but the doctrines of Christ. Leaving all these aside, which is particularly of the new babes in the faith, Paul says there is something to go onward and that is perfection. What is our Perfection? It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory; Col 1:27.
He is our only perfection, as the doctrine of baptisms, note "s" plural. We the body of Christ have only 2 baptisms that are peculiar to Christ.
The baptism in the Holy Spirit and the baptism in water. For we are all baptized into One Spirit.

We must be born again of the Spirit, which is the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and water, which is the water of Life that He give us by this birthing, and also baptized into the Holy Spirit sent from Christ with prayer to the Father, answered in manifestation at Pentecost.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

All these principles are the Same. Outward to Inward. This is going on into perfection. By the Christ in us.

The Spirit of Christ now our spirit, and the Water of Life proceeding from the throne of God, in that Spirit of Life which is in Christ Jesus, and in perfectness proceeding from Him that is in us.

Joh 4:14 But de whosoever oV an drinketh pinw of ek the water udwr that oV I egw shall give didwmi him autoV shall diyaw never eiV aiwn ou mh thirst diyaw; but alla the water udwr that oV I shall give didwmi him autoV shall be ginomai in en him autoV a well phgh of water udwr springing up allomai into eiV everlasting aiwnioV life zwh.
Re 21:6 And kai he said epw unto me moi, It is done ginomai. I egw am eimi Alpha a and kai Omega w, the beginning arch and kai the end teloV. I egw will give didwmi unto him that is athirst diyaw of ek the fountain phgh of the water udwr of life zwh freely dwrean.
Re 22:1 And kai he shewed deiknuw me moi a pure kaqaroV river potamoV of water udwr of life zwh, clear lamproV as wV crystal krustalloV, proceeding ekporeuomai out of ek the throne qronoV of God qeoV and kai of the Lamb arnion.
Re 22:17 And kai the Spirit pneuma and kai the bride numjh say legw, Come ercomai. And kai let him that heareth akouw say epw, Come ercomai. And kai let him that is athirst diyaw come ercomai. And kai whosoever will qelw, let him take lambanw the water udwr of life zwh freely dwrean.

Clear as Crystal, that is the Rock that Christ told Peter He would build His Church upon, that is Himself proceeding from the throne of God and the Lamb. Who's Throne? The Greek reads; from the throne God and Lamb.

This is the perfection which is being made in us the Body of Christ His Church.

If any woman is in this work of being made perfect, then its up to man to be in the same mode of life. She can teach perfectness in Christ as well and many times better than man. This does not take away from the teachings of Paul to the new churches, because woman and men outside of this perfectness cannot attain to the perfection that is in Christ without time. Then we are in admonition from Paul, that we can go on into perfection and can receive without prejudice, teaching from those that have been given the gift of teaching, be it Man or Woman.

Just as being baptized into water, which gets us wet and is only a symbol of what Christ has done in us, an is most certainly needed to show what the inward is becoming. Freely drinking from the water of Life Himself, which baptizes us inward, not outward.

So is the gift of teaching, women cannot teach outwardly to outwardly manifest men for they cannot receive, because of their ego's that are puffed up by their old father Satan. Going on into perfection which is inwardly, we can receive from each other, in submission to each other and receiving from each other be it male of female. So is The speaking of Christ and His church in
Eph 5.

Ephesians 5:21-33 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

In Perfection, you choose what the male and female roles are in Christ. They are of ONE flesh, which is of One Spirit quickened to accomplish that which is the great MYSTERY; which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27

Then how are we to be presented? Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom ; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus :

This is not just man, but the whole of the race of human beings, that is, man faced descendants of Adam.

May all men and women be set free because of the Christ in them and that they see the Christ in others because they see the Christ in themselves.

I love to listen to Pastor Melissa Scott, God has blessed her with a command of the languages of the Scripture that is pleasing to the soul-mind of all who hear Him through her.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Sister,

As you stated-

"The Scripture is very clear that women are NOT to teach men, and not to have authority over them.

It certainly does not mean that women have nothing worthwhile to say; and that does not limit me in my gifts. On the contrary, when I have proper authority protecting me, I have much more freedom to be who God intended me to be.

There is still much controversy regarding women speaking "at all" or prophesying in church."

This is what I am saying, I believe in the proper order of God, although as you well stated their is much controversy on the place of women in the church. Their are many women out of place in the home and in the church as well as men. The primary authority is not for the woman that is clear from scripture. God made them different and he made the woman from the man.

All I'm saying if God anoints a woman (meaning God has join himself to her for the work of ministry)lets not shoot her down because she is a woman.

As you stated-
"(Although God can use a mule to speak, if He so chooses.)"

Now, Nobody needs to be doing anything in the church unless they are anointed to do it!

Personally, I don't believe pastoring a church is primarily for a woman and I had prefer to here a man preach or teach. But I must believe God can choose who he desires.

Now if I was in a very poor country and in desperate need to hear the gospel preached and taught to me, and an anointed woman of God was sent to my village and many of my people were saved and blessed of God, I wouldn't care whether male or female, I would thank God for visiting us.

sincerely,
rbanks

I have personally been ministered to by Men, Women, and also children in my travels and will always keep an open mind to all of these because God can and will use "all" even a Donkey. Balaam had just seen God speak through his donkey. Now, doesn't that beat all? People, if God can use a donkey for His work, He can certainly use us. After hearing the donkey speak, God opened Balaam's eyes (Nu 22:31) and effectively made Balaam understand that God and God alone would give him the words to speak to Balak. God used a sinner such as Paul to change the world, he can and will use all of us as well, just my opinion.

I know that many refer to the donkey speaking as a means of suggesting God doing things in rather unorthodox ways, but let us be careful here. For God also spoke out of a burning bush, and I have yet to see anyone defending the ability of a bush to speak.

As others have mentioned, context is everything.

For example if indeed we take the passage in Galatians about "no difference" to mean what some are trying to make it say, then Paul is out of line suggesting that a wife should submit to her husband. Also, then children could say, "there is no difference, so I am going to rule over my parents."

This is not how God has ordered things. Simply because God did something in one verse, does not set a precedent for His ways for all time, and just because it "works", or because we have been blessed does not mean that it is God's way either.

I can be blessed by a word from a woman, but she is not to have authority in the Church over men.

I know it is becoming common place for women to teach in Church under the submission to their male pastors, but we do not see this in Scripture.

The letters to Timothy and Titus are pretty clear on Church practice, and state that the ones teaching the Church be a "husband of one wife".

Obviously, a woman cannot be a husband, so it is safe to say that this would disqualify them from teaching in the Church apart from teaching the younger women, or the children.

Remember brethren Eve thought her way was right, but she was deceived. She could have said, "ah but it is good, it makes me feel good, and useful, even important."

But we know how that turned out.

just because it "works", or because we have been blessed does not mean that it is God's way either.

Amen.

Pragmatism is definitely one of the biggest problems in the Church today.

PS
Still praying for you and your family brother.