sermonindex
Jul 4, 2008
There is now a Human in the Godhead. What does that mean? . . . . . For God? For mankind?
There is now a Human in the Godhead. What does that mean? . . . . . For God? For mankind?
It means we have an advocate with the Father.
Christ's humanity is not divisible from his divinity as the Son, yet his humanity is not itself what we worship. We worship him for His Sonship.
theopenlife wrote:
It means we have an advocate with the Father.Christ's humanity is not divisible from his divinity as the Son, yet his humanity is not itself what we worship. We worship him for His Sonship.
All irrelevant to my statement that would diminish His humanity that God purposed in Himself to be His ultimate intention,Jesus being the "first of first fruits". The 'why' of creation now becomes more apparent.
Ormly wrote:
There is now a Human in the Godhead. What does that mean? . . . . . For God? For mankind?
It means God's intended purpose.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
God from the beginning created us in his image (His Son) to be glorious sons of God reflecting His Glory.
Jesus (the only begotten Son of the Father) became a man for the purpose of redemption to bring us to a glorious state as sons of God.
Soon the whole earth will be filled with his glory because the sons of God (redeemed by the blood of the Lamb)will be in the Family of God eternally with a body like Jesus' glorified body, equal unto the angels (also consider sons of God)
rbanks wrote:
Ormly wrote:
There is now a Human in the Godhead. What does that mean? . . . . . For God? For mankind?
It means God's intended purpose.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.God from the beginning created us in his image (His Son) to be glorious sons of God reflecting His Glory.
If with Jesus, as in joint-heir-ship, is it simply reflect . . or be full of?? After all, when we were born again we were filled with the Nature of the Father. . . . and that is in this life we have that of the Father.
Jesus (the only begotten Son of the Father) became a man for the purpose of redemption to bring us to a glorious state as sons of God.
Jesus begotten and then became man?
Soon the whole earth will be filled with his glory because the sons of God (redeemed by the blood of the Lamb)will be in the Family of God eternally with a body like Jesus' glorified body, equal unto the angels (also consider sons of God)
Redemption, is that all it takes? This is why I ask, speaking of Paul and Barnabas: "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 14:22 (KJV)
Do you see anything there that speaks of more?
Ormly wrote:
Redemption, is that all it takes? This is why I ask, speaking of Paul and Barnabas: "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 14:22 (KJV)Do you see anything there that speaks of more?
Yes! Redemption to the image of Christ! Because God is going to rid us of everything that is not Christ. We must be conformed totally to the image of Christ where tribulation is God's way to do this. Our faith is perfected through tribulations.
It is possible to be deceived into a false conversion. [Matthew 7] Therefore it was necessary for Paul to lead them down the path of assurance.
The most positive proof of true conversion is perseverance in faith until the end of one's life. True faith cannot be perfectly appraised by others, but is accompanied by godly sorrow for sin, lifelong continuance in repentance, and sincere love towards the saints.
Regarding salvation, that which God requires of the saints, God performs in the saints. Any other good service done by the Church is performed out of gratitude and due reverence, for His glory and praise.
Faithfulness is one aspect of loving God with all one's soul, strength, and mind, which is a summary of the Law. If salvation were conditional upon foreseen faithfulness, it would therefore be a salvation by works of the Law. Instead, salvation is granted according to God's sovereign, loving, electing grace towards the undeserving people He chose "before the foundation of the world", and communicated to them through the faith which He grants as a "gift". "Not all have faith", just as not all are the children of God, but are "by nature children of wrath" whose "father is the devil".
[b]"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Lets see: Paul is speaking to known disciples. By his words and also the words of Jesus, Paul speaks of the striving, to give encouragement, that is to be expected of the disciples if they are to enter the kingdom of God. Why do we want to read more into that or subtract from it to mean redemption covers the whole spectrum? Redemption isn't necessarily salvation.
Please read me accurately in all this.
Ormly wrote:[b]"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."[/b] Lets see: Paul is speaking to known disciples. By his words and also the words of Jesus, Paul speaks of the striving, to give encouragement, that is to be expected of the disciples if they are to enter the kingdom of God. Why do we want to read more into that or subtract from it to mean redemption covers the whole spectrum? Redemption isn't necessarily salvation.
Please read me accurately in all this.
I hope I have misunderstood you on your statement about redemption but just in case I didn't and for others on here and for more clarity on what you are really trying to say, here goes my thoughts concerning redemption.
How can you say confirming those disciples and exhorting them, which through much tribulation are we to go through, in entering the Kingdom of God is a higher purpose than what Jesus accomplished through the blood of his cross for our redemption?
When you lower redemption and say that redemption is not necessarily salvation you are dividing the word with technical language to foreign for me to understand where you are going. There is definitely nothing higher for us than the blood of His cross. We sure can’t merit anything no matter how much suffering we go through. There is no salvation, no entering the kingdom of God, and no heaven or a blessed hereafter apart from the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
I have always seen it as the Lord redeems by the purchase price of His blood.
Then there is the process of redemption in Titus 2:14 (KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Then I see final redemption as completed salvation –
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
The redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and Christ obtaining eternal redemption for us all.
How can you lower the redemption that is in and through Christ Jesus and say that it’s not necessarily salvation?
For you stated –
“Paul speaks of the striving, to give encouragement, that is to be expected of the disciples if they are to enter the kingdom of God. Why do we want to read more into that or subtract from it to mean redemption covers the whole spectrum? Redemption isn't necessarily salvation.
Please read me accurately in all this.”
Forgive me brother but I’m having a hard time with what you are getting at, but when you said redemption is subtracting from it and that redemption doesn’t cover the whole spectrum and that redemption isn’t necessarily salvation, how do you think they are going to enter the kingdom of God apart from or by something greater than the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
I am sorry but a disciple can only be a disciple through the redemption in Christ Jesus. Also a disciple can only through much tribulation enter the Kingdom of God by the process of Redemption in Christ Jesus to the glory of God.
There is much more to understand about the process of redemption in the much tribulations that has been mentioned.
But brother please forgive me in my plain speaking, but it just got all over me, because although God has something greater for us because of redemption, but never apart from it.
God forbid I should Glory in any thing, except in my Savior who purchased my salvation through the blood of his cross and obtain eternal redemption for me.
Ormly,
Judas and Demas were "known disciples".
theopenlife wrote:
Ormly,Judas and Demas were "known disciples".
Assuming you are thinking this through morally and not legally, your point is?
rbanks asked:
How can you say confirming those disciples and exhorting them, which through much tribulation are we to go through, in entering the Kingdom of God is a higher purpose than what Jesus accomplished through the blood of his cross for our redemption?
Higher? There is nothing higher than redemption except God's purpose for it; His ultimate intention for His Glory to be revealed in and by man. Redemption was necessary for salvation and restoration to His purpose through [faith] believing to be an accomplishable thing however, it was but the doorway to re-establish man into God's planned purpose for him, i.e., joint-heir-ship in the Godhead.
That may all sound crazy until one sees that a Divine Human presently occupies such a position, who is the head of those found in Him.
Christendom needs to take down its roadside stands, selling its single dimensioned gospel, quit its "pep rallies" and get on with becoming what God has purposed from before the foundation of the world.
Ormly,
This thread has me scratching my head. I don't know where you are coming from (even in the original question). Are you arguing a modalistic view of the Trinity (i.e. Jesus only)? I hope I am not reading something into your post that isn't there.
By the way, we are not joint heirs "in the Godhead," rather joint heirs with Christ.
SDG,
Dave
davyman wrote:
Ormly,This thread has me scratching my head. I don't know where you are coming from (even in the original question). Are you arguing a modalistic view of the Trinity (i.e. Jesus only)? I hope I am not reading something into your post that isn't there.
You are, which astounds me because I never alluded to Him being alone in the Godhead but simply occupying a position in it.
By the way, we are not joint heirs "in the Godhead," rather joint heirs with Christ.SDG,
Dave
Jesus Christ, the Divine Human, who is now in the Godhead and We, who are born again, are part of His body, correct? What does that make us if not "jointly" there with Him?
Ormly wrote:
Redemption was necessary for salvation and restoration to His purpose through [faith] believing to be an accomplishable thing however, it was but the doorway to re-establish man into God's planned purpose for him, i.e., joint-heir-ship in the Godhead.That may all sound crazy until one sees that a Divine Human presently occupies such a position, who is the head of those found in Him.
Christendom needs to... get on with becoming what God has purposed from before the foundation of the world.
Now, my thoughts on the subject.
The bible says if we suffer with Him we can be glorified together.
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
We will have a body like Jesus’ glorious body in the resurrection that is equal unto the angels but we will not be in the Godhead.
Jesus clarifies this in Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
We are to have the mind of Christ who thought it not robbery to be equal with God but made himself of no reputation and became a man and a servant.
Well the overcomers through the cross of Christ will one day be exalted to a glorified man full of the glory of God but we will not be in the Godhead equal with God. We are to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily serve one another in love like Jesus did. We are not to live like we are exalted already but humble ourselves in the sight of God embrace the cross and be filled with the spirit so God can work in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. No flesh will ever glory in his presence and the way of the cross will lead us to this glorified state.
The church is not to be of this world, worldly, and materialistic. The church is a thing of heaven.
Jesus said all power in heaven and in earth was given unto him. It was given unto him as the son of man. If Jesus lives in us then we need only believe all power is in us through him. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. We still must be subject to him and be led by Him in order for his power to work in us.
We will one day be equal unto Him as a glorified man but never as God. I don’t believe the angels who are called sons of God are in the Godhead, and neither do I want any kind of pride in me to think that I can be in the Godhead. That same kind of pride was in Lucifer and you see where his future is, and all who follow him will end up in hell.
[b]"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . . . " Isaiah 42:8(KJV)
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; . . . . . . . . . . " John 17:22(KJV)
Interesting, isn't it?
What does it mean to take up your cross?
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
The Cross is an instrument of death and figuratively our exposure to death. Christ denied Himself to the point of death in obeying the Father. Taking up my cross is truly the Cross of Christ, self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--Cross. If we are baptized into His death, where did it happen? When we believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and were Crucified with Him on the Cross, that was me on that Cross with Him, that is where I died to sin and resurrected in newness of life, IN HIM.
Where I die daily by faith in His Cross and my self denial to that end of Baptism into His death.
My two favorite scriptures as if no one could tell. :-?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Who liveth in me?
Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
In Christ and in His Cross: Phillip
[b]To take up your cross is to live by the "way" of it.
Indeed, dying to self is the issue however, what do we mean by that when we use the term? The "way" of the cross is exemplified by Jesus in capsule form, when in His wilderness experience. His wilderness experience typifies our life in the world. How He overcame in the wilderness is given to us to be our example of how we are to have success in the world while not being part of it. He abided in the Father. We are to abide in Him. He overcame the solicitations of the devil. We are given to overcome them in like manner. For this to happen in His life, His Love TO the Father was great with much singleness of eye. Our love for the Father must also be great with singleness of eye. This is the only message of the Gospel we need to understand that it be the only sustaining we shall ever need.
Jesus lived 3+ years by "the way" of the cross. Then He performed the "work" of the cross that enables us, who are in Him, to accomplish all that the Father intends for us, i.e., that we learn obedience by the "way" of the cross in overcoming the solicitations of the enemy of our soul, namely, our own selfish nature that seeks to remain on the throne of our/my life, demanding its rights, its claim to my life.
Without redemption; with out the "work" of the cross performed by Jesus Christ, the "way" of the cross is impossible to walk out. We should all kiss the cross of Jesus Christ dailey before our day begins in the "way" of it.
[b]"Make straight [u]the way
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed [u]in the way[u]the way of God more perfectly
"For the gate is small, and [u]the way
Quote:
"""Without redemption; with out the "work" of the cross performed by Jesus Christ, the "way" of the cross is impossible to walk out. We should all kiss the cross of Jesus Christ dailey before our day begins in the "way" """
Amen and Amen.
Truly this is what I perceive as taking up my cross daily. Without Him I would have no cross.
Here we go Jesus another day in the "WAY", you walking in this quickened body to contain the All that You are in me, Jesus walking in me as me.
In Christ: Phillip
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