Who pioneered the Church at Rome?
[b]And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Acts 23:11 (KJV)
Interesting here inasmuch as we must ask, was Paul to "blaze the trail" or follow in Peter's footsteps? Who went there first that the Church was established?
Any Catholics here?
Biblically speaking, neither Peter or Paul started the church in Rome. In fact, Paul's epistle was written to the Romans announcing that he was hoping to come there so he might obtain fruit from them. There is also no Biblical record of Peter ever going to Rome. It seems likely that the Roman church was founded as a result of the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2, where Jews who were converted that day took the gospel with them back to their places of origin.
Some say, however, that later traditions regarding Peter and Paul's founding of the church in Rome has to do with their "establishing" the first of the elders/bishops in that locale. Such is possible. However, I find it more likely that the church there was attempting to make a name for itself (especially later), and what better way to do that than to align your history to the two most eminent apostles?
Then why this from the Lord Himself?
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Acts 23:11 (KJV)
Why the need that Paul was given to fill if it was as you believe it?
I have always wondered why Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul to give the Gospel of the Mystery, to Paul instead of Peter.
Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
The only thing I can come up with is Jesus Wanted to show the exceeding power of the revelation of Christ in a man. Paul the meanest man to the Body of Christ His church, putting them in prison and having them killed as with Stephen, and Paul getting all the glory for these acts. Then Paul's revelation of Christ in him, so completely changed him that he would willingly give his head for the cause of Christ His Body the Church. Even confronting Peter in his attaining to the Law of the Jerusalem Church in reverting from living with gentiles and changing what he was doing, even in front of Paul, who confronted him to his face.
When the bus arrived from Jerusalem;
Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Paul's confrontation;
Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Paul to the gentiles, Peter to the Jews?
Paul was very intent on bringing his brethren to Christ and went to them at every chance, and finally gave up and went to the Gentile who would hear the Mystery of the Gospel which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Acts 28:27-31 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Jesus Christ in Paul is the fulfillment of the prophecy of; Acts 28:25-26 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
I have always wondered why Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul to give the Gospel of the Mystery, to Paul instead of Peter.Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
But who better than Paul who had life had a social "foot" in both societies? In His foreknowledge, it would seem God made the best choice. . . .)
Praise God He chose Paul to bring the mystery of the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
He always does make the right choices, which are far above my choices. Praise God.
In Christ: Phillip
Christinyou wrote:
Praise God He chose Paul to bring the mystery of the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.He always does make the right choices, which are far above my choices. Praise God.
In Christ: Phillip
Amen!! But why is it believed that Peter was the establisher of the Church at Rome when the Roman Catholic church wasn't even thought of?
Ormly wrote:Amen!! But why is it believed that Peter was the establisher of the Church at Rome when the Roman Catholic church was even thought of?
Is it because of What Jesus said in-
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And they have taken these scriptures to mean that Peter is the 1st pope.
Why the need that Paul was given to fill if it was as you believe it?
I'm not really sure as to the "why" the Lord wanted to do it the way He did it. Such likely is due to Paul's calling as the apostle to the Gentiles, and the unique way the Lord caused him to act as a sort of spearhead and paradigm for that mission. However, the Biblical data is indisputable in regard to the presence of Christians in Rome prior to Paul's first coming there.
For such is the content of the opening lines in Paul's epistle to the Romans 1:
9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you... 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.
His spells out his desire at the close of Romans as well:
Romans 15:22 For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you; but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you 24 whenever I go to Spain--for I hope to see you in passing, and to be helped on my way there by you, when I have first enjoyed your company for a while...
Amen!! But why is it believed that Peter was the establisher of the Church at Rome when the Roman Catholic church wasn't even thought of?
The idea behind how Rome came to be first is only revealed in late writings of the church fathers. Somehow, the idea was transmitted through them that before Peter and Paul suffered as martyrs, that they established a bishop in that city to be successor to their ministry. It is a really murky idea without much substance behind it other than a contradictory lists of successive bishops were from time to time displayed when it suited the needs of the church.
KingJimmy wrote:Why the need that Paul was given to fill if it was as you believe it?
I'm not really sure as to the "why" the Lord wanted to do it the way He did it. Such likely is due to Paul's calling as the apostle to the Gentiles, and the unique way the Lord caused him to act as a sort of spearhead and paradigm for that mission. However, the Biblical data is indisputable in regard to the presence of Christians in Rome prior to Paul's first coming there.For such is the content of the opening lines in Paul's epistle to the Romans 1:
9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you... 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.
His spells out his desire at the close of Romans as well:
Romans 15:22 For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you; but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you 24 whenever I go to Spain--for I hope to see you in passing, and to be helped on my way there by you, when I have first enjoyed your company for a while...
Can't argue against that can we? However, who preceeded him is the question and evidence for it being Peter is slim, most all from biased RCC sources.
[b]"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
Acts 18:24-26 (KJV)
Again, in the above, we don't know who originally taught or introduced Apollos to Christianity. The fact that he was taught the "way" more perfectly suggests, it wasn't someone as Peter would have had Peter gone to Alexandria...
For now, I say Paul or one HIS disciples simply because Paul was a Roman citizen and that carried with it additional credibility for which I believe Christ chose him. He was better prepared educationally to make the distinctions as he did on Mars Hill with the Greeks. Certainly, for converting the gentiles, Paul was better able to do so than Peter, don't you think?
At the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:10 we read how there were "visitors from Rome" amongst the multitude of people who heard the commotion in the upper room. While Apollos or any other number of ministers might have had a hand in ministering to Roman believers in their early days, there is little room to doubt that the first 5,000 converts to the church came from the crowd of on-lookers. No doubt, after the feast, they returned to Rome and established the church there.
Perhaps some from the 120 who were in the upper room returned with them, and further instructed them in the Way. Maybe this included some of the apostles... maybe not. We can't really say one way or the other. God only knows.
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