Regarding debate with (wof) people

Ive personally dealt with people in the (wof) movement and with there errors and heresies regarding faith teachings. The Jesus died spiritually error, the message of no tribulation, trials, and suffering Etc

Very few ( in the movement) ever change their views, stance, or position!

Rather They continue to defend and justify and propagate their doctrines. In the same manner a jehovah witness would vigourlessly defend his beliefs.

Extremely hard to break the cast and pull any blinder's down ( spiritual blindness )

Paul gave Titus the best advice on heretics

After two warnings ...simply reject and walk away

For such are subverted, self-condemned and sinneth

A man that is a heretic is entitled - to cautions

But if they don't respond ... we also have the right to reject them, and move on with our life.

To walk away totally and persist no more with it !

End of story, full stop.

Hundreds of people from what ive read and from looking at sites (explored by me) on the internet have written to the man NOW considered (the father) of "word of faith" THE MAN who hails from yonder texas way.

And to this day

He Still Hasn't changed his stance on prosperity, mystical faith, and no trials message.

How long does one persist? or keep retrying?

Been over what? 30 years now and he aint changed
one iota, of a particle, of a fraction, of an atom ...on any of these things - he holds too!

Didn't we just read 2 warnings - and then reject?

Not 30 years And still retrying

Make no sense to me... we have permision...to leave...of it. And to leave - in heresy

Not cruel, totally bible.

To continue to put energy in to it. When you could focus (on those) who want the pure word. Seems senseless, and not reasonable

Anyway my thoughts and 20 cents worth 8-) :-) ;-)

Hi Sonofthunder

I think I agree with what you said. It seems foolish and wearisome to persist with cautioning. On many occasions it simply leads to a hardening of their stance.

Could I ask you to list the scriptures you refer to for all of our benefit.

Thanks

David

One scripture on the list could be this one.

Titus 3v9-11, 'But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and useless.

vs10, 'Reject a divisive man after the first and second admoniton,

vs11, 'knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Thanks Enid

Powerful verses that go to the heart of the matter.

D

The key word for me is

avoid

To avoid is quite a different strategy then to attack. As some have said below, if we are too eager to attack every error, we risk becoming hard hearted. We know from military history that when we open up too many fronts, we run out of resources to effectively engage the enemy that we should be concerned with.

Also, many brethren who preoccupy themselves with combatting error develop the personalities of junkyard dogs. They suffer from the same malady that I see in brethren who become preoccupied with uncovering the mystery and evil of end times through the news media. They have opened a second frontline that jeopardizes not only their peace, but their very effectiveness for Christ.

I am not advocating a strategy of irrelevant quietism that hides from the world. Obviously we should deal with what comes in our path if we cannot avoid it. But this is a different policy then turning on every error that we spy in our binoculars.

The thing we meditate on daily, even while loathing and opposing it, takes over our hearts.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

MC

I do think we should warn... which would be the "mark" part of that scripture. "Mark & Avoid"

That's a very good point.

A convicted sexual offender moved into our area a few years ago. We pointed out his house and his face to our children and told them to always avoid him if they ever see him when we are not around.

Last week we were walking through the city fairgrounds to meet up with friends for the 4th of July fireworks display. Along the path there were carnival workers that called out to the children from their games. In a crowded public area my focus was to sheep dog my little children on the path to our destination, lest they get lost in the crowd of strangers on every side. Avoid the carnies...they might be nice fellas, but their job is to take your money and their games will waste our time. True, they are a common feature of the fair grounds that many people find quite enjoyable, but let's keep focused on the reason we are here.

There are times of course where we will be called to engage these people...but not everytime we see them.

A good shepherd identifies the danger, avoids it when possible, engages it when necessary. The measurement isn't pride, but love for those under thier care. If some of us are always engaging wolves,(edit; "a discernment ministry") but have no sheep under our care, we might question our reasons for doing so.

MC

Hi sonofthunder...

Paul gave Titus the best advice on heretics

After two warnings ...simply reject and walk away

For such are subverted, self-condemned and sinneth

A man that is a heretic is entitled - to cautions

But if they don't respond ... we also have the right to reject them, and move on with our life.

Many of the people who embrace the health/wealth doctrines of the prosperity movement may in fact be true believers. However, they have been misled in the interpretation to just what true Biblical prosperity is. The prosperity that God provides has nothing to do with the physical tangibles of this present world. True Biblical prosperity is the ability to give thanks to God in all circumstances -- including times of difficulty or tribulation.

I know quite a few brethren who have embraced that fundamentally flawed version of "prosperity" that causes them to almost covet the things of this world. Yet I would hesitate before ever calling them a "heretic." In fact, it would probably be a turn-off if they were to hear me label them in such a way. Rather, I view them as brethren who, like Apollos, need to understand the Word of God "more perfectly" (Acts 18:26).

However, I do agree with the idea of avoiding any circumstances where a debate leads to "fingers in the ears." We are to make the most of our time -- and not waste it by attempting to convince a person of a doctrinal or theological flaw with our limited human efforts. God is able to take the measure of faith that such a person is given, along with our words, to produce a harvest of true spiritual knowledge. But I think that it is unwise to approach such individuals as if they were "heretics" when they may, in fact, be true believers who need a better understanding of our eternal Map.

If I remember correctly, even our dear brother Krispy was involved in this sort of thing before God brought him out of it. I think that it is safe to say that Krispy was a believer even during the time in which he was involved with that ideology. Perhaps Krispy could share the events that led him out of that type of ideology?

:-)

I second chris's notion. Just because they are WoF doesn't make them hell-bound heretics. It makes them in error, no doubt. But, how does believing Jesus will give you a lot of money and provide you with flawless health make you damned? As mistaken as such might be, I don't think anybody will go to hell over it (so long as you don't get caught up in covetousness). At worse, you could be wrong, poor, and need to go to the doctor.

Having less than perfect theology doesn't make one a heretic. Otherwise, Calvinists might not make it to heaven! :-P

I also have to agree, I've known some good Word/Faith brethren, which is another reason to simply avoid open combat with factions of the church whenever possible---it gives us time to see how things develop in one another's walks with the Lord. (edit: acts 5:38) Not all of those who attend Wof churches, believe everything associated with Wof...

At the risk of appearing to pander here, I do think it's worth mentioning that I don't think I've ever known a prayer-less Wof person. I've seen prayer-less Baptists, Methodists, and United Brethren...but the Wof expectation that God will move on their behalf seems to inspire at least a form of confident petition.

We may often disagree with the nature of some Wof prayers, but it occurs to me that not praying at all, as some Christians fail to do, might just be a greater error then praying wrongly.

At further risk of pandering...despite my disagreement with much of what is happening under the name of Lakeland, I am nevertheless challenged by the commitment of those people who would drop everything they are doing to drive half way across the country to attend revival meetings. I realize the content of the meetings is objectionable, and their motives for attending may be up for debate...but their enthusiasm and belief is certainly evident.

MC

Hi everyone.

About heresy,

I think that heresy has as much(or at least also) to do with [i]contending for[/i] [b]views or doctrines[/b] to the disunity of the body, as it does with false doctrine in particular.

Perhaps it could be put this way also: heretics [u]promote and contend for[/u] false, [b]and/or[/b] divisive doctrines, [u]to the disunity of the body[/u].

G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greekord itself], sect.

Acts 20:30 comes to mind for instance.

On that phrase, [i]...to draw away disciples after them[/i] in Adam Clarke's commentary in E-sword it says

[b]To draw away disciples[/b] - To make schisms or rents in the Church, in order to get a party to themselves.

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

- from John 7:16-18(KJV)

Chris