Speak evil of no man

I notice when David Wilkerson in talking about weird manifestations and so forth that He spoke of the error but He didn’t name any names. Should we be so bold in speaking about others? Does it please God when his children speak judgmentally about others by calling names of people so boldly? Should we just preach truth and speak against error but be careful how we speak of others?

Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Any thoughts you may have on this?

I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.

Thanks dohzman,

I think you are right concerning the apostolic authority. I believe in the 5 fold ministry but I’m not so quick to endorse any one who calls himself an apostle or prophet.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Many today who say they are apostles don’t have the signs of an apostle.

Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Does it seem to you that even Paul, though He had authority in the churches that He founded and could deal with certain people in the church, could only warn them about the false apostles they were letting come among them, but yet He could not stop them?

interesting question. This is what I believe. I believe the apostle Paul had the authority and the power in/through Christ to shut many of these false brethren down, however I also believe that as Paul (along with the other apostles) drew closer to The Christ of calvary they/he laid down that right and submitted totally thier wills and prerogatives to the soverienty of the God of heaven and earth. I believe they knew that truth would ultimately prevail and out of fear ---no maybe genuine concern and love, they ordered thier lives in such a way so as to leave room for the brethren to make mistakes and miss the mark. I can't see Paul doing anything that would crowd or force a person, he left room for choice, even in his warnings. How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?

dohzman wrote:
How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?

I dare not tread on that ground that some are doing today, and are saying that they know more than Paul and how He should have done it.

But notice what He said here before his departure.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Ac 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ac 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It seems that Paul was doing all He could to correct the wrong and to warn of the danger that was coming. One can not help but notice the three years of tears night and day while he was warning the flock about the grievous wolves that would enter in after he departs.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. This is serious!

Goodnight, till later on!

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.

Your passage above was addressed to the Ephesian church, I believe. In light of Paul's prayers and the warning in Rev. that might make an interesting study.

Thanks dohzman & coley,

Very good insight you have written. I started this thread thinking about how we must come against false doctrine but be true to the spirit of the word. I appreciate all the posts but lets look at the bottom part of coley’s post.

coley-quote
This is sticky stuff but everyone knew who Paul was against collectively....the pharisees of that day were spreading falsehoods. Paul said 'don't believe them, follow me as I follow Christ' (paraphrase). he also said if someone comes and preaches another gospel other than the one he, Peter et al preached to stay away. I would have to think that the nameless brethren under Paul's wing were reporting names to him and others about the falsehoods being spread. But you also don't need to name names for people to get the message concerning what group or what heretical doctrine you are against. Paul made it clear who he stood against, if he could not make that clear then it would never had made sense to write many of what is in his Epistles to begin with. But Paul did both as we see below and on this thread. This was his obligation, his mandate. What's ours?

1 Timothy 1:20:
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

Passage 2 Timothy 4:14:

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, but the Lord will judge him for what he has done.
(quote)

Also let’s look at the ones dohzman mention in his post
(Quote)-dohzman
I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.
(Quote)

One cannot help but notice the spirit in Paul when He dealt with these 3 incidents.

The one he turns over to Satan was for correction and that His spirit would be saved.

The one he called a child of the devil, obviously was because he was a sorcerer, he was perverting the right way of the Lord and hindering the salvation of the deputy. Notice that there was no real condemnation or evil Paul was trying to harm him but only blind for a season to humble him and keep him from stopping the work of God while Paul was there. Hopefully he got saved but we don’t know.

The one about Alexander the coppersmith, he was resisting Paul and the work of God in that area and brought much evil (harm) to Paul but notice Paul’s attitude. He said the Lord reward him for his works and he also said in the next few verses about those who didn’t stand with Him, he wanted the Lord to forgive them. He seemed to have the same attitude Jesus had about letting God be the judge, he operated in the Holy Ghost and only did what the spirit led him to do.

Now let’s look at the ones I posted too.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I believe there is something to be learned from all of this. According to the bible Paul was a man who wept and had a great concern for all the churches. He saw the dangers that were among them and the dangers coming. Yes, he preached and taught against heresy and error among them. He even confronted Peter and said he was to be blamed. But we read no where in the bible that he named names just to be naming them. He never spoke with hatred in his heart toward anyone. He never used humor, jokes, constant criticism, ill will, or any carnal attitude toward anyone. We also can’t find any place in the bible where Peter did not receive Paul’s correction in the right spirit.

Help me if you can, look at 1Cor. 11:13 where he says “for such are false apostles” and see that he is describing who they are and what they are doing to show that they are false. The big difference I see today is that this is the beginning days of the church and the church was not as large worldwide as it is today. Another thing to consider is the original apostles are not with us today. The deception of our day is much more on a larger scale and many Christians are being saved in the midst of so much false teaching. The minister I was saved under who is deceased now was a fine man but he was influenced a lot by Copeland and Hagin. He referred me to some of their books after I got saved but I mainly read my bible and prayed. I grew in my relationship with God and got to where I didn’t like listening to them any more because of the errors I was beginning to see about prosperity teaching and other things. I think we should help people in doctrinal error more with the truth in exposing the error than in attacking the person with judgmental speaking.

Some questions to consider, at what point do we bluntly call a person a false prophet/apostle, because we all have at one point or another spoke something in error?

Do you see anywhere Paul harped on the name of any false apostles? We do see that the ones he called false were the ones who were teaching falsely and claiming more than Paul.

Are there not some who are genuinely born again but are in some type of error who needs to be corrected?

Should we not be more concerned with correcting false teaching with the true teaching than just attacking the person?

Should we not with much prayer and humility before God make sure we are led by the Spirit in the mentioning of any name that we disagree with on teaching and make sure God wanted us to say it?

Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?

Don’t you think a good preacher can lose his credibility among people if he spends most of his time harping on other preachers in a judgmental way? This can do more to help the preachers preaching false doctrine.

Couple of queries ...

[i]Speak evil[/i]

Intent.

Public ministries and ministers are by nature setup for criticism and should not be set off limit just because they are ... public. Their words carry out to whatever variety of constituents that they are addressing. It's an ironic twist that on the one hand they may want to be lauded or recognized up to the point of being either tested or held accountable for those things they speak. Just as often it is the 'followers' more so than those under subjection crying the loudest.

"Not naming names" is a curious notion, it's not like talking about your neighbor 'Joe Smith' that nobody knows anything about and I really do not see where there is some prohibition other than to vicariously attack someone, speak [i]evil[/i] of them.

If this is what is being constituted for speaking out at error, then I would say the accusers have a greater weight of responsibility for sparing the consequences under a guise of Christian sensibilities.

Granted, some things are just completely unnecessary, would like to think we might know the difference, the time and seasons, when to speak and when to be silent.

Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?

I don't know about that, sometimes I wonder if we haven't been cajoled into thinking that we cannot know truth form error lest it be 'revealed' to us, speaking in generalities brother.

There are only 4 instances used in the KJV of this combination, 3 of them are in the book of Revelations, they all use the same tense;

[b]G5578[/b]
ψευδοπροφήτης
pseudoprophētēs
psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace

From G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

[b]G5571[/b]
ψευδής
pseudēs
psyoo-dace'
From G5574; untrue, that is, erroneous, deceitful, wicked: - false, liar.

[b]G4396[/b]
προφήτης
prophētēs
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet: - prophet.

[b]G5346[/b]
φημί
phēmi
fay-mee'
Properly the same as the base of G5457 and G5316; to show or make known one’s thoughts, that is, speak or say: - affirm, say. Compare G3004.

One more consideration that keeps coming up in the thoughts;

[i]And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.[/i] Act 16:16-18

[i]Paul, being grieved[/i]

Nowadays the damsel would be celebrated, "[i]These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.[/i]" She is preaching the gospel! Touch not the Lords anointed" ...

Thanks brethren,

This thread is helping me. Something you may not realize because I have not stated it until now but back in July of 2006 I had an experience with God of being filled with the Spirit like never before. I began to get upset with most of the Tv preachers over what they were saying in their messages.

I would hear Joel Osteen say things like have confidence in your self, talk to yourself. It seems like most of the preaching is self-help, instead of denying self. I listened to T. D. Jakes one time preaching on Joshua going into the water and the people were getting so emotional at his preaching and it wasn’t even correct according to the bible. I’ve heard Benny Hinn say things apart from the word of God. Jesse Duplantis so many enjoy listening to because he is so funny but a lot of what I heard him say was not funny to me. He seems to lift himself up and even put God under Him and I can’t listen to that kind of mess. As far as Todd Bentley goes that everyone seems to be caught up with, I watch Him one time and turned him off. Its looks like most of the preaching today is man centered instead of Christ centered. The message of the cross is avoided, only the passing words of mentioning the cross and the blood now and then, but the way of the cross is not brought out.

I prayed and asked God to help me not get into a critical spirit and not to become bitter over this, but to be full of his Spirit and be led by Him.

The reason I started this thread is for some insight from others and I thank you for that. The one thing God put in my Spirit so loud and strong was not to depart from the word. Everything we do must be from the Word of God by His Spirit.

I fear God too much to go astray from the Spirit of His Word. I definitely do not want to get caught up into anything that God is not in, and I want to have the right attitude that is pleasing to God.

In Christ -rbanks

Amen brothers,

1 Corinthians 1:23-31 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. ((((But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.))))

In Christ: Phillip

Now that's an interesting insight on the damsel. I never saw it that way but it does fit, doesn't it?. I think I'll spend some time on that one.

rbanks wrote:

The one thing God put in my Spirit so loud and strong was not to depart from the word. Everything we do must be from the Word of God by His Spirit.

Great insight!

Thanks for all your posts brethren and thoughtful for words,

Here is something else to think about concerning the damsel -

Ac 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Ac 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Ac 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I always try to interpret scripture within context. If you notice scripture before and after you will see that a spiritual work had begun in that area and it says, we were going to prayer when a certain damsel (possess with a spirit divination and had brought her masters much gain by soothsaying) met us (more than just Paul) . It says the same followed Paul and us. It also says she cried saying, these men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way unto salvation. Now notice this, the scripture says she did this many days and none of the men of God said a word to her for many days. Don’t you also wonder why they let this go on for many days?

Is there not something more to learn from this, how all the men did nothing for days? Now we know these were men of God and were not enjoying this at all. I believe these men did nothing without being led by the Spirit and that means putting up with a work of the devil until the time God moved upon them. You see brethren, God knew and I believe revealed to them that her masters were going to cause a ruckus when they cast out that spirit in her and that would harm the work of God going on. But notice it was Paul who after many days was grieved to the point of action and that what ever it was going to cost them, the Spirit of God was moving on Him to cast it out of her. He spoke directly to the Spirit and never said anything to the woman which is amazing. She was totally possessed and He freed her, praise God. Brethren if we are to learn anything, it is that true apostles never act on their own about anything, but they are moved against the powers of darkness when the Holy Spirit of power moves on them to do so.

Hi everyone,

KrispyKrittr, about this,

"How do you "mark & avoid"... how do you warn others... if you dont name names? Paul named names. He named the names of those who were deceiving the believers in the churches he was writing to."

As you brought out, the examples we have are in private letters written to congregations and to individuals. The people involved knew each other personally.

He was not standing in public places making accusations.

In Acts 13 and 16, the Apostle is speaking to people that he is looking at in the face.

He is not, for instance, spending hours upon hours talking about people on internet forums, who cannot speak for themselves or answer their accusers charges. Or even know they are being accused.

Hi everyone,

KrispyKrittr,

you said,

"I dont consider letters written to congregations to be "private"."

But they were.

If a man stands outside a mailbox and reads mail that doesn't belong to him, he will be considered a criminal.

The same is true for the mail that comes to a church or a buisness.

And this is especially true as it pertains to the very public nature of these forums, which are being read in different parts of the world. [b]They are public places.[/b]

You also said,

"Add to the fact that Paul was merely the instrument... the Holy Spirit wrote that letter... and I'm quite certain that the Holy Spirit knew that these names would be broadcasted thru-out the world and in the heavens for all eternity."

Excellent point.

He wasn't firing off his mouth, or pen, on his own...

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

Also, you said,

"...he probably had no problem naming the names verbally in front of that gathering of people."

That's just it, these forums [b]are not a gathering of people[/b]. The things being posted here are being shot off into the dark to people we do not know and neither is it possible to know who will read them.

Also,

"...and the next week your preacher gets up in front of the congregation of 600 people... and names you by name and exposes you... I doubt you will think this isnt public."

And public rebuke of sin or error [b]in the setting of a congregation of believers[/b] is in scripture(1Ti 5:20). But internet forums are not congregations. We are not speaking face to face here. And those accused or rebuked are not present here to defend or speak for themselves.

Also,

"First off... you are now accusing. Hmmm... now thats interesting."

KrispyKrittr, what did I accuse you of?

About this,

"And there is nothing preventing these people from signing up for this forum and joining the conversation."

Is that reasonable? Why should anyone do that? Is it anyone's responsibility to run over all the earth to defend themselves?

Also,

"...when Benny Hinn teaches there are really 9 persons of the godhead, not 3... and I quote his teaching on that... and compare it to the Bible... thats not accusing"

And I don't think there is anything wrong with challenging that either.

But this topic is about speaking evil of people. Not correcting doctrine.

My reponse to you was in regards to your refrence to Romans 16:17. And specifically then how it could or could not be applied to these forums.

Chris