I know this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway. Is God all knowing, does he know whats going to happen before it happens, and if so is'nt that contrary to free will as far as salvation is concerned?
God is the source of all knowledge, truth, and
wisdom. In His wisdom; He has a plan and purpose
for any one who will seek His truth. Nothing
happens that He is not aware and knowing; and
He knows us to the intents and secrets of our
heart. His understanding is infinite; His ways
surpassing searching out. If a man will not
yield to His sovereign will; then he will reap
the fruit of his selfish ways and suffer the
consequences!!
Alright, then what is Gods sovereign will? I really don't care that much about this topic, I was asked by a friend to ask some christians about this topic. This seems to be a place where "christians" hang out, so I just thought I would ask. Is that o.k.?, or should I just take it somewhere else? I'm not trying to start an arguement just needed some answers that's all.
Gods foreknowledge does not interfere with man's responsibility. God so love the world that whosoever believes in His Son Jesus would not have to perish but could have everlasting life
rbanks wrote:
Gods foreknowledge does not interfere with man's responsibility. God so love the world that whosoever believes in His Son Jesus would not have to perish but could have everlasting life
Thank you for the friendly answer rbanks. O.k. but if God already knows in advance whos going to heaven and whos going to hell then how do we really have a free will?
Hi stromboli...
I think that the fallacy in such a question is that we don't fully understand either the nature of God or the nature of Eternity.
Eternity, in my estimation, is a completely different realm than our universe (where time operates as a control). God sits upon a throne in Eternity. As such, He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, God is the "Alpha and Omega" and the "Beginning and the End." He is Eternal. This is how He knew us before we were born...because He sits in Eternity.
I've heard the argument that God sits in Eternity already -- with those who were born BEFORE us and those who will be born AFTER us as well. In other words, when we die -- we pass through the realm of time and into the realm of timelessness known as Eternity. This is why we can "sleep with our fathers" but also go straight to Judgment. At that meeting -- EVERYONE (ALL) will stand before the Creator of all things and an account of our lives will be revealed (as written in the books). Our standing in Eternity is reflective solely upon the appearance of our name in that Book of Life (which sits in Eternity). Our name appears in the Book of Life as a condition of our relationship with Christ within this temporary realm called "life."
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways. Rather, He simply needs for us to trust Him in all things. Believe me: There is no contradition in His ways. What seems like a contradiction to us is actually just the limitation of our own understanding.
Thus, I feel that we should focus on those things of which we are sure. For instance, "[i]Whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved
:-)
Ive never heard it put that way. Alot to think about. We were talking about how when satan was created how that the bible says god made him perfect and he was perfect until iniquity was found in his heart. The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi stromboli...I think that the fallacy in such a question is that we don't fully understand either the nature of God or the nature of Eternity.
Eternity, in my estimation, is a completely different realm than our universe (where time operates as a control). God sits upon a throne in Eternity. As such, He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, God is the "Alpha and Omega" and the "Beginning and the End." He is Eternal. This is how He knew us before we were born...because He sits in Eternity.
I've heard the argument that God sits in Eternity already -- with those who were born BEFORE us and those who will be born AFTER us as well. In other words, when we die -- we pass through the realm of time and into the realm of timelessness known as Eternity. This is why we can "sleep with our fathers" but also go straight to Judgment. At that meeting -- EVERYONE (ALL) will stand before the Creator of all things and an account of our lives will be revealed (as written in the books). Our standing in Eternity is reflective solely upon the appearance of our name in that Book of Life (which sits in Eternity). Our name appears in the Book of Life as a condition of our relationship with Christ within this temporary realm called "life."
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways. Rather, He simply needs for us to trust Him in all things. Believe me: There is no contradition in His ways. What seems like a contradiction to us is actually just the limitation of our own understanding.
Thus, I feel that we should focus on those things of which we are sure. For instance, "
[i]Whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved[/i] ." We shouldn't try to reason whether or not we are part of some "predestined" group -- because we could never know such a thing on this side of Eternity! Rather, we just need to realize the need to call upon the Name of the Lord and to remain in His presence!:-)
I have thought this same thought before but as I began to read the bible about God being all powerful, all present, and all knowing I began to magnify God’s greatness. I began to realize that He was Just, Holy, and Love. I saw that God wants to be loved and He gave man freewill to love and obey or to disobey. God’s predestination is in His Son Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. It has been said and is true that if one fails to plan then he has planed to fail. God never fails. God always plans everything, nothing ever surprises God.
Everyone because of the fall is on their way to hell, and the bible says the angels of God rejoice over one sinner who repents. It is not a decision about who goes to hell or Heaven. God wants everybody to accept His Son and what His Son did for them on the cross so they can be saved and be in Heaven with Him.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God predestinates according to his foreknowledge, and this gives great hope to one who is a believer in Christ. God does not predestinate some to go to hell and some to go to Heaven. The bible says hell was created for the devil and his angels.
When Adam (man) fell to sin by disobedience he was subject to Satan and destined to hell with him. But you see God had a plan because of his foreknowledge to still give all mankind an opportunity to still love Him and obey Him. The price of our redemption cost more than any of us could pay, but God’s Son paid the price with his blood on the cross for man’s sin (disobedience). What great love this is for all mankind. God’s foreknowledge is perfect and he has made sure that all those (several thousand years and so on in advance) who believe and obey his Son will have everlasting Life.
You see God does not violate man’s freewill because He doesn’t want robots to serve Him but people loving Him. Because of sin, man is bound and his will is not free but when one hears the gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts him and man begins to yield then God can help him, and begin to free his will to believe and be saved. God gives man a hatred for sin and a love for God when he truly repents.
The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
Taken by surprise, no. You could get very well bogged down into this as many have and as you mentioned, you would imagine.
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways.
Indeed, nor does He intend to, that is what makes Him sovereign over all and I thank Him for it. If it was left up to us with our short-circuited wiring we would only have even more of our fallen heads teaching other fallen heads ... A couple thousand years of the same argument has not yet proven us to have 'figured this out' or reasonably explained it. If that wasn't proof enough ...
The answer is yes, He knows and no, it is not contrary to our responsibility.
crsschk wrote:The fact that his sin totally took god by surprise because he was perfect until the iniquity was found in him sounds like god really does give us all choices even angels and he expects nothing but good from us were the ones who make the choices to do our own will.
Taken by surprise, no. You could get very well bogged down into this as many have and as you mentioned, you would imagine.
Unfortunately, I fear that our attempts to understand such things might cause us to become guilty of the same guesses as Job and Co. God doesn't need for us to understand all of His ways.
Indeed, nor does He intend to, that is what makes Him sovereign over all and I thank Him for it. If it was left up to us with our short-circuited wiring we would only have even more of our fallen heads teaching other fallen heads ... A couple thousand years of the same argument has not yet proven us to have 'figured this out' or reasonably explained it. If that wasn't proof enough ...
The answer is yes, He knows and no, it is not contrary to our responsibility.
Pretty deep stuff.
The reason its so mind boggling to me is that if god doesnt know what will happen till it happens it would totally take the blame away from him and he becomes nothing but a good god. He cannot be looked at as a criminal who loves some and hates others and the blame shifts to us.
Consider that God is eternal and not bound by finite time as we humans are. He exists outside of time. Therefore, past, present, and future are all the same to Him from His perspective. Thus, God knows everything happening in the past, in the present, and the future at the exact same time. Everything is "present" to Him.
The reason its so mind boggling to me is that if god doesnt know what will happen till it happens it would totally take the blame away from him and he becomes nothing but a good god. He cannot be looked at as a criminal who loves some and hates others and the blame shifts to us.
The real question isn't if the future is set or not but rather what is it that sets the events of the future. Because God knows the future entirely that isn't the factor that sets the future and therefore robs you of any free will. No, your freedom is what sets the future to a great degree; therefore, your free will actions are meaningful and your willful interaction with God in relationship is meaningful as well.
There are some facts of the future that are going to occur simply because God has decided it to be so, the ultimate fate of the righteous and the wicked are an example. But that doesn't mean all the facts of the future are set that way. The future is fixed only in this regard: We are going to make particular decisions in the future that are acts of our own personal will, and that is what secures the future such that God can know particular things or facts about the future. Therefore we can call God omniscient because He knows all things.
In Christ,
Ron
this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway.
You seem to be alluding to a growing theological perspective called Open Theology. I, as well as most of the posters here would be opposed to its teaching, that if God grants free will to humans he must therefore be unable to know the future – or at least, all of it.
Rather than ramble, I will post a site that is loaded with information on the topic – likely more than you care to read. If anything, though, it will show you the enormity of the issue, and just how relevant your question is. You will also see that a lot of theologians have already been battling over this, and that is why there is so much information out there on it.
Diane
Interesting link Diane,
The author correctly anticipated my surprise at reading that author Philip Yancey is of the Open Theist persuasion.
MC
If God is not all knowing, then He doesn't even know with certainty what will happen even one second from now. That's a scary thought.
roadsign wrote:this has probably been beat to death on here as a topic, but would like to ask anyway.
You seem to be alluding to a growing theological perspective called Open Theology. I, as well as most of the posters here would be opposed to its teaching, that if God grants free will to humans he must therefore be unable to know the future – or at least, all of it.
Rather than ramble, I will post a site that is loaded with information on the topic – likely more than you care to read. If anything, though, it will show you the enormity of the issue, and just how relevant your question is. You will also see that a lot of theologians have already been battling over this, and that is why there is so much information out there on it.
Diane
I read about half of the paper and must say it gave me a little more insight ...
Of course the proponents of OT believe that they are rescuing the church from bad theology of the past – and to some extent that may be true. I would love for my hyper-Calvinist friend to read something about Open Theology – just so he sees where his rigid thinking leads – when people finally try to buck it.
MC, I was surprised too. Whether this is a recent development in Yancy’s theological views or not, I do not know. That might make a good topic of study. Certainly I don’t plan to toss out all his books, as there is good material in them.The author correctly anticipated my surprise at reading that author Philip Yancey is of the Open Theist persuasion.
This thread will not likely turn into 20 pages since we need enough posters on both sides of the issue to help keep it going (controversy seems to sustain discussions). However, I will post the last few paragraphs of the linked article – as food for thought.
The Benefits of Open Theology
It may seem strange after the last paragraph to list benefits of OT, however, since I fully believe that God is able to use all things to His glory, I list three.
1.\tOT puts into words what a lot of people already think. It might surprise us to read some paragraphs of Boyd's work aloud in our congregation and ask for a vote on its accuracy. I believe this is because OT is the logical conclusion of making a god in your own image. If you only think of God in terms of an exalted man this is what you get. It seems to me that this is part of the reason why the Lord takes such great pains to ask questions of His people like, "To Whom then will you liken Me?" (Isaiah 40:25). The tendency is to treat and think of God as a man, albeit a really large and generally good one ("the big guy upstairs"). But, special revelation is iconoclastic in the sense that it is continually exploding our false conceptions (idols?) of the Lord. OT can be a help in that somebody is finally saying what many already think. Now, we can take what they say and, as a teaching tool show the fallacy of it to our sheep.
2.\tOT ought to refine our theology and our hermeneutics. Church history has proven that the best heresies make for the best orthodoxy! OT asks some excellent questions of the Word and of our Calvinism. If you are like me, you do not enjoy studying topics like this and one of the main reasons is that it takes a lot of brain energy! We need prods like this, however, to get rid of some of the mush we carry around in our theological brains. Lord willing it will be replaced by a more biblically refined and crisper presentation of what is true. We can also use a good wake-up call on our approach to the text. The constant tension of any good interpreter is to let the text speak, while integrating what it says into the rest of our theology. This back and forth motion takes great care and time and all of us need to improve at it. We are not above the "fallacies" noted earlier!
3.\tI think the best thing about OT is that it deals a deathblow to Arminianism. Ware makes this quite clear in his work and so do the OT authors. OT is, in one sense, the logical conclusion or outworking of classic Arminianism. Free will and sovereignty are contradictory - on this the Open Theist and Calvinist agree! That is why the Arminian side has, in my opinion, offered nothing of substance in defence against OT. They have had the rug pulled out from under them. It may be that the Lord has "permitted" the sudden uprising of OT in order to demolish another pillar in the already shaky foundation of Arminianism.
Could there be some truth in these thoughts?
Diane
Quote -Diane
“Free will and sovereignty are contradictory - on this the Open Theist and Calvinist agree!” Qoute-
I believe all the studies of man have faults within them. Definitely the OT and Calvinists have faults within them.
The bible does not contradict itself, only men’s understanding does that. The Word of God states that man has a free will and it also says that God is sovereign.
Adam and Eve were both given a free will and placed in the garden by the sovereign God of all creation.
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer? Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true? These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about. Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
stromboli wrote:
If God is all knowing why did he ask Adam where he was? Was it just a question he asked already knowing the answer? Why did God have to come down from heaven and visit Sodom to see if the crys he heard were true? These are just a few questions that i think are interesting to think about. Did'nt God turn over this world to Satan? If not why did Satan offer them to Jesus?
Have you never heard of a parent asking a child a question already knowing the answer but wanting the child to answer truthfully?
God deals with man to where he is at, and relates to man accordingly.
We always get into trouble when we try to bring God down to our understanding, His ways are much higher than ours and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
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