Post-Trib Rapture

Post-Tribulation or Pre-Tribulation? I know this is a debate centuries old, but it's still a topic worth discussing (but not a topic to divide over). So if any believe contrary to the other, I still think the Lord knows each heart and what matters is discussing things in a humble and loving manner.

Personally, I feel the Scriptures are pretty clear that the believers will be present on the earth during the tribulation. There are a couple verses that pre-trib theory holds to (1 Thess 4:17 - the Lord descending with a shout) as well as one plowing in the field and the other being taken. But the majority of Scripture tends to see all taking place in light of the Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3 seems to be pretty clear that the "thief in the night" passage Jesus used is in context with the "new heavens and the new earth" and the old heavens and earth being burned with fire. So it appears it is used to speak of the Post-Trib Coming rather than a Pre-Trib. Jesus also said in Matthew 24 that when the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all the nations, THEN the end will come. He also said "after the tribulation, THEN the Son of Man will appear in the skies and all the earth will mourn."

As far as thinking God "would never" keep believers here during 7 years of tribulation, I think that is a difficult argument. Did God spare believers in Sudan from their tribulations? Did God spare China? Why would He spare the end-times church from 7 years of it? I think God doesn't "spare" believers from persecution, but has His very purposes ordained within tribulation and suffering, that we might be tested and refined and know the very heart of God in the midst of it.

But wasn't Noah spared from the flood? Wasn't Israel kept from the plagues of Egypt? Yes, that is speaking of the judgments of God. Believers will not face wrath from God, but they will face opposition from the world.

Anyway, I'd love to hear thoughts on this topic. Yes, it's an old one hear at sermonindex...

When they asked Jesus about the end times, He
said he that endures to the end shall be saved.
God's influence and His presence will be with
us through the tribulation. He is more than
able to deliver and keep us through the peril-
ous days to come!!

What is odd is that many evangelicals believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, even though there is no real eschatological purpose for them doing so. Many do not realize that the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is just over a century old, and comes from John Darby's dispensational theology. At least within his system of theology, a pre-trib rapture makes sense. But when stripped from that system, a pre-trib rapture theory has no legs to stand on besides empty reasonings like "God doesn't want us to suffer." This doctrine as emraced by many evangelicals is simply the theological leftovers from a system of theology that most of them reject. And rightly so... dispensationalism makes sharp and artificial divisions of the Scriptures, resulting in a God who has two peoples with two entirely different purposes. It is a heresy that leads to overt antinomianism and cheap grace.

Question: "When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?"

Answer: The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are Pretribulational (the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation), Midtribulational (the Rapture occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation), and Posttribulational (the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation). A 4th view, commonly known as Pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the Midtribulational position.

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the Tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “week” (7 years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth week, the Tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10. There, Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things: (1) Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or (2) Christ will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept “from.” It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation, the purpose of the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the Pretribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.

My other question is; why would a husband put His bride through tribulation when He has already given His life for Her that He might present to Himself His own beloved Body, His Bride, His Church. Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Washing of living water, by the Word Himself, not by tribulation.

The Word Himself: John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I don't see any tribulation of the end times for Israel in the Body of Christ His Bride.

In Christ: Phillip

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Some believe there will be a bride taken from among the church. The bride of Christ will be delivered from the hour of trial coming upon the earth to try them.

The pre-trib rapture is for the bride, every one else will go through the tribulation.

There are examples in scripture concerning the bride to be taken out from the church.

1.\tAbraham’s servant getting a bride for Isaac from among his kinsman.
2.\tThe 10 Virgins –5 were wise & 5 were foolish
3.\tThe marriage of the Lamb has come and his wife hath made herself ready
4.\tEtc…

If the church is taken, who will be left provoke Israel unto jealousy as Paul decribes in Romans 11?

rbanks wrote:

There are examples in scripture concerning the bride to be taken out from the church.

Yep, and there are examples in scripture that has believers not being taken out as well.

When ever the Lord is ready to take me, I'm ok with it. :-)

I have always had a problem with the position taken by the vast majority of "Evangelical" denominations of a Pre-trib rapture of the church. Last fall, I woke at 3 am with the following scripture that completely and clearly tells us when the rapture will happen. Oddly enough it is the very scripture that most clearly tells us that it is going to happen.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And then:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Th.4:16 clearly states: "the dead in Christ shall be raised FIRST, THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

1Co. clearly states "and the dead will be raised incorrruptible, and WE shall be CHANGED."

There can be no question that the event that PROCEEDS the "rapture" is the Resurrection of the Saints. The question then is not When is the rapture, but must be When does the Resurrection of the Saints occure?

Hint: Check out what Jesus had to say about the Resurrection in John chapter 6.

Blessings Greg

I like Keith Green's thinking on this: When it
comes to believing in either pre-tribulation or
post-tribulation, my motto has alway been: pray
for "pre" but prepare for "post". That way
we'll be ready for truly anything--which is
exactly the way God wants us to be!! The thing
that matters most to God is that His people be
found ready to rule as the bride of Jesus when
He returns.

Hello...

I currently lean toward a belief in a "pre-wrath" gathering of Christ's bride (the Church). There are several reasons for this belief...and I approach it only after much study (with prayer, of course). However, this inclination is by no means final. I am certainly aware that the coming of the Lord might happen after the period of "great tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out upon the entire Earth. Tribulation has always been around -- but there is a huge difference between the unspeakable torture experienced by believers through the ages (as illustrated in Hebrews 11:35-40) and the wrath of God that will be poured down upon the entire Earth (killing and destroying entire portions in an instant).

I just believe that "God hath not appointed us to wrath" (I Thessalonians 5:9). I believe that He can certainly keep us FROM the "hour of temptation, that will come upon all the world, to try them that live upon the Earth" (Revelation 3:10). This is illustrated via anecdotes throughout the Bible. God spared his people often by removing them from (or protecting them through) the dispersion of His wrath. Noah and his family were rescued from God's wrath, angels helped Lot escape God's judgment of fire and brimstone upon Sodom, and the Israelites escaped the plagues God poured out upon the Egyptians. In fact, I can't find a single instance in Scripture in which an undeniably righteous person received the wrath of God. While every believer in the pages of God's Word endured periods of earthly (and even satanic) tribulation, there seems to be a vast distinction between God's wrath and mere tribulation or persecution.

I've always viewed the coming of the Lord to be much like the traditional wedding customs of the people of God. After the betrothal, the groom departs to "prepare a place" for his bride. The bride waits for her groom -- where she must remain prepared for his arrival at all times. Once the groom's father approves of that place, he permits the groom to go and gather his bride. This is reflective of the Parable of the Virgins in Matthew chapter 25 (uttered by the Christ within the same context as Matthew chapter 24).

The Scriptures tell us many things about the coming of the Lord. In some passages, we seemingly read about the days preceding His coming as being like "the days of Noah." Why? It wasn't because all of the people were destroying one another in violent, terrifying ways. Rather, Jesus said in Matthew 24:36-44 that the people were marrying, divorcing, eating and drinking -- all until the day of the flood (God's wrath).

The Word of God says that only the Father knows the day or hour of the Son's coming (Matthew 24:36). I also find it interesting that the "Great Tribulation" (I prefer to call it the time of "God's Wrath") is generally accepted as 7 years (although some argue for a 3 1/2 period). If the Son of God -- who knows all things -- can count the days of this "hour of trial" as spelled out in the Word of God as He sees it from Heaven, doesn't it seem odd that Christ would not know the timing of His arrival?

Anyway, I don't pretend to have all of the answers for these things. This is merely a perspective that I hold. I am acutely aware that the Lord could come before, during or after the time of His wrath. However, I do have a problem with rebukes and warnings from the brethren who almost "fear for my soul" (as one brother put it) simply because I lean toward a gathering by the Son before God pours His wrath upon the Earth. When it all comes down to it, I think that the important thing is that we remain close to Jesus. We can be aware of the various interpretations about the timing and manner in which the Lord will come. We should be prepared for ANYTHING -- including the most terrible tribulation imaginable. As long as we truly know and fellowship with Christ Jesus, we should be secure.

I know that some people argue that those who believe in a "pre-trib rapture" could fall prey to the deception of the Anti-Christ. But if we truly know and walk with the Lord, wouldn't it be easy to spot a counterfeit? The argument goes that those who are waiting for the "rapture" during the "great tribulation" might be prone to believe the lies of the Anti-Christ simply because they are still waiting around for a "rapture." Since the "rapture" hasn't happened yet, these believers might think that they are okay. However, the same argument about the dangers of believing in a "rapture" that may never happen could be said of those who don't believe in a "rapture" that does. What if a "rapture" (or "gathering") does happen? Those who are "left" might be those who were assuming that they would "get right" when things got bad. I've actually spoken with a backslider who uses such rationale. He argues that he will rededicate his life to Christ once he sees evidence of the "great tribulation."

I like Keith Green's take on the "rapture" (pray for "pre" but prepare for "post"). I also like David Wilkerson's idea in "pan-trib" (everything will "pan" out in the end). I just don't like it when believers on either side of the end-times aisle begin to point the finger of heresy at those with whom they simply have a doctrinal disagreement. I have had people point their fingers at me and tell me that I “believe a lie" simply because I can't say that I believe in a "post-trib rapture." And, of course, there are quite a few "visionaries" who receive supernatural visions, dreams and prophecies of a mandate that we shall live through the period of God's wrath. I suppose that it is hard to argue against someone who receives such "indisputable" evidence from God (*cough cough).

In the end, I think that we should be aware of all of the possible scenarios regarding the Lord's return. We should refrain from casting judgment upon those who might not see "eye to eye" with where we might currently lean. And it may be advisable to NOT come to a final or ultimate conclusion about a matter that is certainly open to further analysis or debate. Until we are certain -- beyond any hint of doubt -- it might be helpful to remain open to further review. Meanwhile, we should keep our eyes upon Jesus. We should focus upon intimate prayer, worship, service and a love for God's Word. One day, this mystery will be revealed (ready or not). We should remain ready for the Lord's return -- no matter how or when it will happen.

:-)

I believe in post-trib rapture.

Endtimepilgrim.org has some very good articles on all these. (there's some mistakes but overall the articles there are very good).

If the church is taken, who will be left provoke Israel unto jealousy as Paul describes in Romans 11?

Reply to Mattie
Mattie you said “(but not a topic to divide over) I respectfully believe this topic can only be understood by rightly dividing The Word of God.

God sent His Son to take God’s harlot bride off the auction block and to purchase Her with His blood on the cross and raise Her and all of them and Her children that had been dead until His coming. All those that were children of Abraham according to the flesh that were alive at the coming of Christ passed through the great tribulation and have gone. The law and the prophets were until John The Baptist.

Since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it. The Bread Of Live lives in us that are the spiritual children of Abraham. He will never leave me nor forsake me, thus, the filling of the promised blessing God promised to the world of faith through our faith in His Son..

Jesus along has The Words of Life that gives life eternal, not life after the Messiah the Anointed One comes or after the judgment, but eternal life today. Not life that the manna from heaven gave. Not the show bread, but The Daily Bread, The Anointed One, The Savior of all that believe by faith, not just The Liberator of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

God judged the world, we are all gentiles, guilty until we accept our Savior. I live by the words of our Savior to the gentile nations, we that have been judged to be sinners, not Saints..

Eddie

I agree with the brother who mentioned Romans 11. The church has a calling to Israel. This is a big part of the very purpose of the church's existence and the sovereign purposes of God.

The pre-trib theory negates the fact that it is the Gentile nations that will provoke the Jewish people to their Messiah, and much of that will occur during "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30) and the great tribulation.

Also, when Daniel spoke of the coming Antichrist system, he didn't use language that talks of saints leaving the earth during this time. The language he uses tends to be more in the direction of remaining and enduring the persecutions to come for the glory of God.

Hi KingJimmy...

I can't say for certain that this particular passage found in Romans 11:11 is referring to a jealousy that will be aroused DURING the time of trial that will come upon the entire world. In fact, verses 7-10 of this same chapter refers to a set of passages from Deuteronomy, Isaiah and Psalms. This could be speaking of a jealousy that already exists -- and existed from the first days in which Gentile believers were "engrafted into the vine" (Romans 11:11-24). In fact, this entire chapter doesn't seem to reference an event-prophetic view until verse 25.

If the church is taken, who will be left provoke Israel unto jealousy as Paul describes in Romans 11?

Is it possible that this could refer to those who believe DURING the period of God's wrath? There will certainly be multitudes of people -- mostly Gentile -- who will come to the Lord during that terrible time. Is it possible that the "fullness of Gentiles" will not take place until during the time of God's wrath? Could it be this that provokes Israel unto jealousy?

Anyway, this is just something to consider. Like I said, I certainly don't have all of the answers in this matter. In fact, I can't speak with any certainty regarding the exact nature, manner and timing of Christ's return. However, I also shy away from those who claim that they have "rightly divided the Word of Truth" in such matters as these. I have been rejected as a believer at times simply because I did not adhere to a particular doctrinal view (at least, with enough certainty to say "I believe") regarding certain matters (with even some matters that are almost trivial).

I hesitate to believe that there is a person alive who has "rightly divided" the Word of God well enough for which there are no mysteries left. That is one reason that there are so many differences amongst the brethren. Once we are convinced and think that we are right, we set our views as rulers and primers by which to judge the beliefs of others regarding such matters (forgetting the grace by which we were afforded before we arrived to some of our conclusions). Some people can be so adamant that their "rightly dividing" is the only acceptable "rightly dividing" that they are willing to separate themselves and create their own local congregations based upon their own faith in their own "rightly dividing." It makes me wonder just how "rightly" they are "dividing." This is done in views about the "rapture," the gifts of the Spirit, and any number of other things by which men create denominations.

Of course, I know that most of the brethren here at SermonIndex are NOT like that. It always amazes me that this web fellowship attracts believers from many nations, regions and doctrinal backgrounds. I suppose that we are united in the sense that we all realize that something is greatly amiss in the organized "Church." Our hearts are incited by the words of men like Leonard Ravenhill, Paris Reidhead, and others. They spur us toward a closer relationship and reverence for the Lord while challenging us to test everything that we may have held as "truth" for so long.

How will the Lord return? Will it happen before, during or after the "hour of trial" that will come upon the entire Earth? I just don't know. That is so secondary compared with my task at hand: Know Christ and introduce Him to others. I'm just excited that Christ is coming -- regardless if this happens before that hour of wrath or after it. I don't care what type of tribulation or persecution that I will face. I don't care if it happens at the hands of men or from the wrath of God. I just long to see His face.

:-)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The scripture says here that the believers (living and the dead in Christ will rise) will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.
It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Has anyone found out concerning the meeting in the air? How far above the earth will the meeting be? How long will we be in the air? What timeline have you figured this to be? What will we be doing in the air?

Just a few questions someone may have studied and could be of interest to this thread.

Thanks! -rbanks

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
http://endtimepilgrim.org/index.htm

http://www.preservedwords.com/larkin%20sc.htm

In Christ, the Bride waiting for the Husband, no more fasting because Jesus has returned for His Bride the Church, baptized into One Spirit.

Phillip