BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
Devotional

The Soulish Believer

F
Friedrick Aug 1, 2008

The Soulish Believer

The following is a point form summary of a soulish believer. These points are coming from Watchmann Nee’s, The Spiritual Man, pages 153-158. Oh that we would press on in God! Miss Margaret E Barber, a major influence in Nee’s life wrote, “O God, grant me a complete and unrestrained revelation of my own self.”

A soulish believer is one who:

-\thas a characteristic of being curious
-\tstudies the Bible to satisfy their mind and for personal gain
-\ttheir speech, apparel, and actions have an attitude of being different and superior
-\tseeks to achieve instant success in their activities
-\ttries to understand matters inquisitively
-\trelies on the understanding of their mind; likes to reason
-\tdoes not reconcile their experience with God’s teachings
-\tthinks that what they understand mentally is what they have experienced
“What saddens them the most is not that their experience fails to catch up with their ideals, but rather that they cannot understand with their ideals and their mind the spiritual experience they lack” (page 153).
-\thas an attitude of self-righteousness
-\tis stubborn with trivial opinions
“Although we think our understanding is very clear and that what we believe is without any mistake, to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel displeases the Lord. We should lay aside differences on small points and pursue the oneness on major points” (page 154).
-\toften has confused thoughts (their mind is easily disturbed by evil spirits)
-\thas defiled and mixed up thoughts
-\tanswers what is not questioned in conversation
-\thas a mind that travels at high speeds
-\thas scattered thoughts
-\twhen praying and reading the Bible their mind is far away
-\tacts without forethought (though they argue to act according to principle)
-\tis fickle
-\tis touched easily
-\tcan be very excited and happy and at other times very sad and depressed
-\ttheir joy and dejection depend on their feelings
-\tdoes not live steady and unchanging
-\tis oversensitive
-\tthinks everything around them is directed towards them
-\twhen neglected becomes angry
-\tsuspects the change in others attitude towards them
-\tlives in human affection
-\tcan become easily intimate with others
-\tfeels great pain in their soul when a relationship changes even the slightest
-\tis self-centered
-\tthinks they are special when they have spiritual growth
-\tbelieves they have received God’s grace (which they need greatly since they live out of their soul) by their own strength and thus do not give glory to God
-\tfeels they are stronger and more spiritual than others
-\tif placed in a joyous environment they will be joyful
-\tif placed in a sorrowful environment they will be sorrowful
-\tlacks the power to create their own environment
-\tlives an emotional life
“…the Lord often enables them to feel his presence. Soulish believers delight in this kind of feeling the most. When they have such a feeling, they think that they have reached the supreme state and have made great strides on the way to spirituality. Although there are times that the Lord does not give them such a feeling, because they have not reached a complete life of faith, very often the Lord gives them the feeling of His presence in order to gradually train them not to rely on feelings but to depend on faith alone. However, they do not understand the intention of the Lord. They think that when they have such a feeling, their spiritual condition is at the highest point; otherwise, they think it is at the lowest point” (page 156).
-\tis talkative
-\tknows much talking is not good but when they are excited can not help but speak endlessly
-\ttheir mind loses control when their mouth opens
“They lose either harmony with others because of arguments or love because of criticism, or they even lose control of their heart because of talkativeness” (page 156).
-\tchanges topics quickly when speaking
-\tthrives on youthful like talk and jesting
-\tis fond of pleasant looks
-\toften they are proud of their artistic view
-\tmay even consider shabby clothes as suffering for the Lord if they are in style
-\tchants in heroic or mournful tones
-\toften grumble about their lives and weep uncontrollably
-\tloves literature and admires it’s beauty
-\tmay recite lyrics or poems as if by speaking them they have a marvelous feeling of escaping the world
-\tlikes to feel close to nature and thus travel to see mountains and rivers
“Very often they have the thought of escaping from the world and living in seclusion because they see the worsening condition of the world. While they are pondering such thoughts, they think how transcendent and how noble they are! It seems that all the other believers are defiled and unbearably vulgar” (page 157).
-\tis controlled completely by their emotions
-\toften have a great deal of spiritual knowledge but they lack experience
-\tsince they know much they criticize others much
-\tis hard in their dealings with others
-\tmay give glory to God with their lips but their thoughts are directed towards the “self”
-\tis very proud
-\tcannot bear when others misunderstand them
-\twill not be seen as inferior by others

These are just a few, though there are many characteristics to a soulish believer. Feel free to add to the list.


Friedrick

A sermonindex resource:

"Deliverance from Sin and the Soul Life" - Nee

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1943

J
JoanM Aug 1, 2008

Thanks for your labor on this keeper. Bible verses come to mind for many of these and there is common sense.

Can you tell me where the concept of a soulish believer comes from, in the Bible? Enough people use that idea that it must come from scripture somewhere. It is a useful idea to explain things we see in those that go on to become what Jude warns against. Possible example: unbelievers think intuition is spiritual insight. I am looking for foundational texts.

C
crsschk Aug 1, 2008

Can you tell me where the concept of a soulish believer comes from, in the Bible? Enough people use that idea that it must come from scripture somewhere.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.


1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.


Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Bible verses come to mind for many of these and there is common sense.

Think that may answer your own question sister, 'the ones that come to mind'. The ones that came to my mind were derivatives of 'carnal' vs. 'spiritual' above and are just a few, could well be into the whole book with precept upon precept. The listing is quite true that Nee presents, how much that experience bears this out and how true, sadly true, the wavering or drifting that we can do, when the soul\\flesh gains the upper hand, when we are indeed guided and even controlled more by our emotions and feelings ...

[i] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/i] Rom 7:18

This comes to mind as maybe a prime example;


[i]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?[/i]

Joh 6:50

That the Lord was over and over again having to explain spiritual things, to the Jews, to His own disciples ...

[i]And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; .... For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. [/i] Mar 7:18-23

His seeming puzzlement over Nicodemus 'soulish' reasonings on being born of the Spirit;

[i]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?[/i] Joh 3:9,10

[i] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?[/i] Joh 3:12

The after effects;

[i] These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.[/i] Joh 12:16

Saul of Tarsus and the Apostle Paul ... The soulish man turned spiritual! Could have left it at that had I thought of it earlier. Much that comes to mind.

L
Lor_E Aug 1, 2008

I would also add to Mike's list the scripture that Nee uses to begin about "soulishness".

Heb. 4:12 [i]...piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/i]

1 Cor. 15:45 [i]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.[/i]

That we are made up of body, soul, and spirit. That the soul is the seat of our emotion, our personality, that part of us that we have inherited since Adam. The spirit, on the other hand, which is the only place where God by the Holy Spirit can reside, where we have connection with God.

The more natural thing is to be a follower of our natural tendencies and be led about by our soul. Yet a Christian who is 'spiritual' is one who is led by the Holy Spirit's direction given to their spirit.

One thing that Bro. Nee also teaches though, is that too much introspection, too much trying with our own power to change our own soulishness, will only lead to more soulishness. (and how true that is.)

[i]If we live in the Spirit, let us also now walk in the Spirit.[/i]

I am thankful that God is so patient, and that He corrects me as a daughter, I'm sure I still have a long way to go; but I know that the work that He has begun, He will surely finish.

In Christ,
Lori

F
Friedrick Aug 1, 2008

Some good discussion here. Praise the Lord. Thank you for posting Lori; well wrote.

A
AbideinHim Aug 2, 2008

I appreciate all of the contributions on this important subject. Jessie Penn Lewis also wrote about spirit, soul, and body and the necessity for believers to know if they are living out of their spirit or their soul. Below is an excerpt from one of her writings on this subject.

The " soul " (psuche) and its functions

"The next point for consideration is the question, What is the ` soul' in distinction from the spirit, and what are its functions ? " Here some quotations from other writers will help us before we turn to the Scriptures, to discover what the Apostle means by the " dividing of soul and spirit ", and thus more clearly understand howspirit, soul and body " can be sanctified, and preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord.

Tertullian, one of the Fathers who wrote in the early centuries of the Christian era, calls the " flesh "-or physical being-the " body of the soul ", and the soul thevessel of the spirit ". The soul stands between thespirit and the body, for " direct communication between spirit and flesh is impossible; their intercourse can be carried on only by means of a medium " *-the " soul " being that medium.

The " soul was the meeting place, the point of union between body and spirit ", also writes Dr. Andrew Murray. " Through the body, man-the living soul (Gen.2:7)-stood related to the external world of sense "; through the " spirit he stood related to thespiritual world ".

Pember explains the function of each very clearly when he says, " The body we may term the sense-consciousness; the soul the self-consciousness; and the spirit the God-consciousness ". Again he says, the body " gives us the use of the five senses "; and the soul, the " intellect which aids us in the present state of existence, and the emotions which proceed from the senses ", whilst the spirit is the highest part which " came directly from God, and by which alone we apprehend and worship Him ".

Dr. Andrew Murray accords with this, when he writes that the gifts with which the soul was endowed when man became a " living soul ", were those of " consciousness, self-determination, or mind and will "; and these were to be but the " mould or vessel " into which the life of the spirit was to be received. Dr. Murray also says " The spirit is the seat of our God-consciousness; the soul of our self-consciousness; the body of our world-consciousness. In the spirit, God dwells; in the soul, self; in the body, sense ".f

Again, Pember writes concerning the creation of man, and how the tripartite being was formed-" God first moulded the senseless frame, and then breathed into itthe ' breath of lives ' (Genesis 2:7. The original is in the plural)," and this " may refer to the fact that the inbreathing of God produced a two-fold life-sensual (in the meaning of pertaining to the senses) and spiritual...." He adds, in a footnote, that possibly the meaning of the use of the plural in the " breath of lives ", is that " the inbreathing of God became the spirit, and at the same time by its action upon the body, produced the soul ".

Briefly, we see that all these writers practically define the " soul " as the seat of the personality, consisting of the will and the intellect or mind; a personal entity standing between the " spirit " with its openness to the spiritual world, and the " body "-open to the outer world of nature and sense-having the power of choice as to which world shall dominate or control the entire man.of For instance, when Adam walked in the garden of Eden, the spirit breathed into him by God dominated his " soul "-i.e., intellect, mind, will-and through the vessel the " soul " shone out in, and through, the earthly tabernacle of clay-the body-making it luminous with light, impervious to cold and heat, and able perfectly to fulfil the object of its creation.

The Fall of Man

But-alas, that a " but " has to be written-man fell, and after a time the result was seen as described by the Lord Himself in His words, " Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually " (Genesis 6:5, R.V.). The " Fall " apparently began in the intellectual department of the soul, for it is said that Eve saw that " The tree was to be desired to make one wise " (Genesis 3:6 R.V.). The appeal of the serpent was not made to the vessel of clay, or the outer man, for the body was then perfectly dominated by the Spirit; but it was directed to the intellect and understanding of man, and based on a lawful desire to advance in knowledge and power in the unseen realm of another world. " Ye shall be as God," said the serpent, not " ye shall be as the beasts ", created by God ! The temptation was KNOWLEDGE, and the very knowledge which probably God meant to give in due season, but grasped before its time,and out of God's will.

The words of the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians1: 19, are therefore very significant in connection with this aspect of the Fall, for the " word of the Cross ", is said by the Apostle to be the power of God to " destroy the wisdom of the wise ". Since sin entered through the avenue of the intellect, salvation comes by a Cross which destroys the fallen " wisdom " by the very acceptance of its message, for the preaching of " Christ crucified " is to the wisdom of men " foolishness "(I Cor. 1:18-25) Thus God, in His wisdom, provides salvation in a waywhich deals with the cause by which the Fall came about ! Therefore Paul writes, " If any man thinkeththat he is WISE among you ... let him become a fool, that he may become wise, for the WISDOM OF THIS WORLDIS FOOLISHNESS WITH GOD " (I Cor. 3: 18,19 R.V.)

Eve, moreover, fell through yielding to the very temptation which had caused the fall of Satan himself, for lie had said " I will be like the Most High . . . " (Isa. 14:13,14)The tempter knew how to attract Eve, by suggesting to her something higher than she possessed, for she was limited by a body made of dust, but had a soul capable of appreciating knowledge and growth, through the higher part of the tripartite being.

The full effect of the downfall we do not see until years afterward, when the record of the condition of the race shows that the road down was rapid, for the " wisdom " which gave knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden reached its ultimate in due course, in a complete sinking into " flesh ", so that the part of man's tripartite nature which he had in common with the animal creation, obtained the upper hand. Then it was that God looked down upon the fallen race, and said, " My Spirit shall not abide in man ... for in their going astray they are flesh " (Gen. 6:3) And so it is, that not only has " death reigned " over the fallen race of Adam, but every human being born in the likeness of the first Adam is of the " earth, earthy ", and is dominated by the flesh instead of the spirit; the soul, which is the personality of " himself " (see Luke 9: 23) a slave of the flesh and the earthly life, instead of being a handmaid of the spirit.

Thus the condition of the unregenerate man is now (I) his human spirit severed from God, fallen and alienated from His life (Ephesians 4: 18) " without God ", separate from Christ (Ephesians 2: I2), and incapable of fellowship with Him; (2) the soul-intellect, mind, will, self-consciousness may rule over the body, or (3) the body in its desires and appetites may be enslaving and dominating the soul. But while the human spirit is thus " dead " to God, and in darkness, it remains as full of activity as mind or body. In some instances the spirit part of the unregenerate man may be so large in its capacity that even in its dark condition, it dominates the soul and body. Then the man may be said to be " spiritual ", in the sense of possessing more " spirit " than others, who are mainly soulish or fleshly. These are the ones who seek intercourse with the spirit-world apart from the Holy Spirit of God, and become " mediums ", capable of exercising " occult powers ", such as clairvoyance, etc., bestowed upon them by satanic means, for unless the human spirit of a man is regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, it is in accord with the fallen spirits of Satan, and governed by the prince of the power of the air, the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience (Ephesians 2: 2, 3).

We see, therefore, that the fallen spirit of man-bereft of God at the Fall-sank down, so to speak, into the vessel of the " soul "; and the " soul " again sank down into the fleshly body, under, what Paul the Apostle calls, " the power of the flesh ", so that in the unconverted " the soul, manifested sometimes in intellectuality, some times in sensuality, often in both, reigns over them with undisputed sway. This is what Jude wishes to set forth in his 19th verse, which should be rendered, ' These be they who separate, men governed by soul, not having spirit. .

Fausset very clearly brings out this in his commentary on this passage, for he writes, " In the three-fold division of man's being ... the due state in God's design is that ` the spirit' . . . should be first, and should rule the soul, which stands intermediate between body and spirit, but in the ... natural man, the spirit is sunk into subserviency to the animal-soul, which is earthly in its motives and aims. The ' carnal' sink somewhat lower, for in these the flesh, the lowest element ... reigns paramount ".

In regeneration it is the darkened and fallen " spirit of man, which is quickened again and renewed ".t This is the meaning of the Lord's words to the " Master in Israel ", to whom He said, in spite of all that he knew in intellectual religious knowledge, " Ye must be born FROM ABOVE " (John 3:3, also margin 5:7), and later on to His disciples, " It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing " (John 6:63).

The way that the new life from above reaches the fallen spirit of man is shown in the Lord's words. " The Spirit breatheth where [He] listeth ... so is every one that is born of the Spirit " (John 3:8 R. V. m.); and the cause of the Spirit of God quickening the spirit into new life, is given in John 3:14 as the death of the God-Man upon the Cross in the place of the sinner, that "whosoever believeth into (lit. Greek) Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

The Cross and the Fall exactly and perfectly correspond -the one as the remedy for the other. First by the death, of the Saviour on the Cross, the sin had to be put away, and the way made possible for the Holy God to pardon the sinner, and secondly the sinner must be given a way of escape from the bondage of soul and body into which he had fallen. The tripartite nature of man could then be again adjusted, with the spirit once more in domination, and the body acting merely as the outward and material vessel-the instrument of the spirit through the soul.

This way of escape is made clear in many parts of Scripture where we are shown the death of the sinner with the Saviour. Its mode of application for deliverance we shall see later on, as we consider the full meaning ofthe Cross."
\t

J
JoanM Aug 2, 2008

Thank you for some pieces that will help.

Thinking...Reading ....Praying ....Meditating.

I may need to articulate a clearer question. I’ll be back.

L
Lor_E Aug 2, 2008

Also, there was an article posted by PaulWest about this subject that may be of interest to you, I finaly found it and the link is
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23196&forum=34&19]here[/url]

In Christ,
Lori

J
JoanM Aug 2, 2008

I can't believe it. I think I lost my very long post on this with all my "back arrowing". Your encouragement has helped. Searching now the three open SIs on my computor. Sorry. (News/prayer re Pastorfrin put me on the floor.) Searching.

J
JoanM Aug 2, 2008

This is the best I can do at this point. There were several reasons I asked for foundational scripture for the concept [u]Soulish Believer[/u].

#1 I recognize what is on the particular list in the first post. My own list and those of others have been helpful to review when difficulties arise. I use the word [b]flesh[/b]; Paul at times uses the word [b]carnal[/b] (flesh in its root, dead?). Here it is [b]soulish[/b] and there [u]is[/u] the distinction in scripture between soul and spirit.

#2. There are times when I have had questions like, “Is this behavior coming from a born again one, i.e. how could it be?”(Example: 1 Cor. 5:1 and leaders like those in Lakeland) and in considering how God has drawn me, given me Life, grows me ("When was I born again, as Jesus speaks of it in John 3?"). I also know why believers think about steps in a growth process and why some people explain some changes as a “second blessing” meaning a variety of things.

#3 [u]The context of my question[/u]: As it falls out, I am deep into a study of Jude with a small group in my local church. God has given me great love for this fellowship for over 20 years and there have been Glory to God family and individual lessons it would be hard to receive in moving from group to group. Perhaps like all churches in America, the body is showing some of the fruit of the in-roads made by things/movements like the emergent church, Hyble’s (sp?) use of human wisdom where Divine wisdom was lacking (my take on that issue), flesh aspects of what is called charismatic, divisive elements of the “music controversy.” In addition, a few of the other small groups happen to be studying similar topics useful in such times. Does this give you the picture?

#4 Threads on this site touch on this. (Example: Swaggart, playing occult laced games, rock/christian rock/music in the church and its relationship to worship, the roll/lack of prayer, being held accountable for every word we say here, etc).

#5 Now at last my question: Look at Jude 8: [u]Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities[/u]. Verses 9-13 (not yet deeply considered in the Bible study. We are in week 10) go on the explain these “dreamers.” The phrase in verse 10, “[u]but what they know naturally as brutes beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves[/u]”, stood out to me as possibly helpful. I don’t ever know what God is going to do, but I do recognize how He prepares us. I reflected on the question: What does man know naturally, as a brute beast, in which he could destroy himself, as a false teacher that could have a hearing inside the church? How is this deception going on? Crssehk, you, or maybe it was PaulWest, spoke about remaining disturbed recently in a Lakeland thread. I am settled regarding Lakeland. My focus is [u]local[/u] at this point and of course always with regard to keeping my own heart and mind fixed on Him, Truth. Anyway, the single new thing that occurred to me was that bruit beasts [u]mistake intuition as spiritual insight[/u], deluding themselves (increasing pride) and leading others astray (false prophesy). How else could followers accept “words of knowledge” that turn out to be false with “Well, you can’t always be right.” Hello? What’s more, unbelievers, hearing those in the new age and believers, cannot tell the difference.

I am omitting thoughts on how a soulish believer may not be a believer; why Paul, a good shepherd, might have written as he did to the Corinthians; and what I know about the difference between revelation and Truth seeping into those born again. Relevant but too much.

Even this is far too many words for this subject and I do not like “many words” that leave openings for vain disputation. I am not a writer. I’d rather read the Bible than Calvin. I can however appreciate that writing can help people get clearer. Someone on another thread said, “Goats will eat anything.” I will keep that in mind. If only those that flock to false teachers were all goats. But there are sheep that have come out of such stuff after years. Deep sigh. And there are sheep, sleeping, groggy sheep, where I worship. Deep sigh.

So my refined question is [u]What does man know naturally, as a brute beast, in which he could destroy himself, as a false teacher that could have a hearing inside the church[/u]? Honestly, I don’t want to know anything more about the way of Cain, than is absolutely necessary for me to agree with God, His Word, that Christ dealt with that on the Cross. I want to know only Him (trust, obey, rest, abide), speak of Him, and point Him out. But I see the perilous times. Anything that is True is worth thinking on, including the way of Cain as Jude exposes it.

I thank God that on a Saturday, with beautiful weather, and grass that needs mowing, believers gather to grow and help others. Beautiful Bride, all of you.

Edit: Good more to consider

C
crsschk Aug 3, 2008


What does man know naturally, as a brute beast, in which he could destroy himself, ...

Too much.

[i]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.[/i] Gen 3:5

[i] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/i] Gen 3:22

Abbreviated your question into more refinement sister, maybe the first part gives place to the second ...

Attempted some time back something on the order of "[i]Am I a wretched man still?[/i]" and eventually threw in the towel for lack of clarity and where the argument had to turn, that which is couched in the language of "before\\after" as it is want to go; Paul's "pre-conversion" or guttural cry of something continual ...

Experience keeps telling me otherwise. Fact's keep proving out the matter and even scripture seems to point towards that which is an ongoing battle.

I am a wretched man.

I loathe and despise those very things that I would be rid of forever and yet, in times of weakness, in certain circumstances and atmospheres ... the fever pitch and temptations can be overwhelming. Need to be as blunt as possible here but hope a little bit of rabbit trailing won't lose the trace of the path.

[i]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.[/i] Rom 7:21

"A law". Is this then Genesis above? "Knowing good and evil"? To appeal back to the aforementioned argument, are we then to believe in [i]eradication[/i] on the heels of that glorious verse(s) that are appealed to as [i]the answer[/i];

[i]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/i]
Rom 7:25

And all that follows ... [i]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/i] Rom 8:10

Context wise however, between all these things are warnings and "take heeds" if you will. [i]The body is dead do to sin[/i] ... I wonder if this is not often misconstrued in thought to mean something other than intended. It seems to be often parred with other verses; [i]Reckon yourselves dead[/i], But to reckon is to take an inventory, to consider, conclude, reason, think on, it's as if to say, 'as if you were already dead'. Trouble is, you are yet still alive while you reckon and so is the flesh and it's carnal appetites.

I think it is the gist of Paul's great exhortations as he goes on that we .... [i]fight[/i]. It is not just in this letter but in many others. To endure and to suffer. Not only that which is seemingly on the outside but the interior, where the battle truly rages. Is it not so? The thought life, that which is being pulled and tugged at from every quarter; From the world and it's polished falseness, the incredible knack it has to paint things as they are not. Either in hues of opposing extremes, that things are rosy when they are corrupt, bankrupt and insipid (Is the world not right now caught up in it's own bizarre insipidities, is it not beyond idiotic and ridiculous?) or in shades of extremes, that are sensationalist, conspiracy minded, future - fortune telling, the sky is falling, no it's not - well, yes it is, we are in a recession, no, it's a depression ... I am certainly not espousing a lack of paying attention, but I am also beyond weary of the "[i]this is that[/i]" mentality that even Christians are so often bound up in. It is where I think the greatest part of the collective camp of "prophetic" types are flatly deluded in their fleshly minds, their imaginations are active but I think they have forgotten just who is in charge of times and seasons and that He is not telling us what they are ... ahead of the curve. The word "Providence" jumped out at me recently from a derivative of another posting and it is a grand reminder and a helpful humility.

Veering back on to the path for a moment, these fleshy/carnal/soulish attributes are alive and well. There is something inherent within us that wants to both know the future and be [i]the ones[/i] to speak it, strangely like there is some prize or adulation for being the one to bring it forth. It's either; "[i]I told you so[/i]" or "[i]Aren't I the blessed one to have Gods ear.[/i]" Such notions, [i]they have their reward[/i]? It is pride guised in misconstrued spiritual attributes, it's soulish indeed. More practically, the list first put forth, how many of these things are still yet evident? One example applied liberally and generally that often plagues this very forum;

[i]- cannot bear when others misunderstand them[/i]

Defend! The knee-jerk reaction that is so often prevalent; "Are you saying then _____ that I am ______?" On that order. Suspicions and poor, beggarly attributes of these corrupt dispositions that they are so easily [i]harmed[/i]. What happened to being [i]dead[/i] to such notions? The same ones that would have us supposedly freed [i]through Jesus Christ[/i] as an elimination or eradication of our former selves are often the same ones trying to breath life back into that same dead corpse, prop it up and ... defend it. It is patently absurd and contradictory. Others have this superman image, better - [i]imagination[/i] that nothing can touch them, they are 'super saints!' as Katz was want to put it. It's just not so ...

If we haven't yet figured it out by way of experience and scripture and all these great examples of dead speaking men that we have here I do not know what will do it. I am without necessity convinced that we Brethren are under the most severest assault [i]daily[/i], moment to moment, hour to hour, day by day. It is not sensational to state it plainly, the accuser is set about to do that which gives him reason to accuse and the variety in that arsenal is beyond even what we do know ([i]not being completely unaware of his schemes[/i]). Even our memory banks are taking withdrawals from - are they not? Some thing long put away in what we think is a safe deposit box only to be found cracked open again and presented as a trinket for enjoyment, comfort, ease of distress, what have you.

We are paradoxical creatures and even more so as Christians. We are weak and yet still posses strong [i]wills[/i] and I mean the will to do, not something in isolation from the rest of our disposition, but a will of desire - A "[i]I will[/i]" do this thing regardless of what it costs me - "Oh wretched man that I am!". I will yet defy God though I cannot entertain the thought of doing so, yet I do it anyway! [i]The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do[/i].

What then? Are we helpless, hapless, pawns is a spiritual contest - a conquest where we are but victims and casualties? Or are we those 'super saints' - hypocrites that believe one thing and do the other?

Well I wish to God I had an easy, simple answer but I think we fail to think hard enough sometimes. There are things that are going on so far beyond us that it ought to give us more pause for humility and right understanding of just what we are and [i]Whose[/i] we are. We are not our own, but we keep forgetting that. We are to be [i]led[/i] - by T h e S p i r i t and right there is where I fail and you fail, we all fail. Who are we to trust? Ourselves? Oh perish the thought! If I had the capabilities I wouldn't trust this melon as far as I could throw it.

And yet ...

There is no question whatsoever in my mind nor experience that this is a relentless battle and that those of us set about going on with God are in for it. If it is not bothering you that you are being [i]bothered[/i], if prayer doesn't cost you a great deal of the time something - something painful - something of an extraction from deep within you - that you don't want to but run from it - that you cannot but amen this great comment;

[i]“My uncle,” says Coleridge’s nephew, “when I was sitting by his bedside, very solemnly declared to me his conviction on this subject. ‘Prayer,’ he said, ‘is the very highest energy of which the human heart is capable’: prayer, that is, with the total concentration of all the faculties. And the great mass of worldly men, and learned men, he pronounced absolutely incapable of prayer. ‘To pray,’ he said, ‘to pray as God would have us pray,—it is this that makes me to turn cold in my soul. Believe me, to pray with all your heart, and strength, that is the last, the greatest achievement of the Christian’s warfare on this earth. Lord, teach us to pray!’ And with that he burst into a flood of tears and besought me to pray for him! Oh, what a light was there!”[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=20793&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go] LORD, TEACH US To Pray By ALEXANDER WHYTE[/url]

So much for sticking to the trail ... I am writing out of very present circumstance. Yesterday, I failed. I failed part of the test - I passed the first and yet the thought life took off afterwards. I cannot go into detail here, it's not prudent nor really necessary. God knows. There is also very much presently a situation that is getting well under my skin, that has been ongoing for some time and that has me wrestling with how to deal with it. It seems an injustice and that I ought to speak up, yet - It is not for someone else but [i]myself[/i]. I can 'justify' it - bring forth evidence - It is frustrating and full of all kinds reasonings that I despise - falsity - being patronized - a whole philosophical- self help - humanism based outlook and construct. It is many things and my gut reacts to it, my soul rebels against it, my spirit often wants to ... rebuke it or at least vomit from it. But. A grand but to it all. Is it still that which is fleshly, carnal reasoning? That the little scheme I have cooked up in my mind and the whole construct of what I think to be true is first and in fact true itself and secondly even if so ... am I to carry it out?

Having a real time of it because my healthy suspicion is - no. Despite all the things, the only right thing to do is to pray and seek the Lord till He leads the course of action or that of inaction. A time to speak or a time to stay silent. Lean on the arm of flesh or the everlasting arms.

Gaining perspective is such an incredible, humbling thing. I revisited a message mentioned here before but offer it to all again;


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=450]The Cost of Declaring His glory[/url] [i]by Helen Roseveare[/i]

[b]Description:[/b] Helen Roseveare spoke this message in 1975, sharing candidly of personal tests and trials she underwent while serving as a medical missionary in the Congo (now Zaire), including pride, marital longings, prolonged illnesses, and beatings, rape and imprisonment by rebel forces. The cost of declaring the glory of the Lord Jesus costs all our heart, soul and body. "The branch," Roseveare says, "had to lose its leaves and flowers to become an arrow;" such is the privilege of sharing in the sufferings of the Lord Jesus.

Taken from another ramble ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21685&forum=45&post_id=&refresh=Go]A Psalm[/url]

Thanks ahead of time for allowing too much to be said and hopefully being forgiven of expressing too much here in an extrapolation off a question. It's yet another ramble, one that in 3 hours I will probably regret knowing my penchants. Felt that I need an outlet to express it all and this just fit here I guess. Covet your prayers saints.

L
Lor_E Aug 3, 2008

Thought and prayed regarding this whole question and heart of this matter. I don't want to diminish any post as they all are so very well expressed and so very needful. Just a couple of points.

1. Those that follow [i]after the flesh[/i], I don't think there are any of us who do not have inclination towards some aspect of fleshly struggles. No doubt the bonds of the leadership of the flesh are broken as Christians (as Romans 6 refers to), yet we are still dwelling in the flesh and will be until the day that we put on our new tent.

But our souls: the [b]seat of our emotion and our intellect[/b], that which rises up in defense of ourselves, that which legitimizes our own concept of any situation, that which is under authority of our own wills.

As opposed to, as an unregenerated person being "controlled" by the basest deeds of the body/flesh/soul.

Nee states:[i]The Lord Jesus has stated that any unregenerated person born but once (i.e., born only of man), is flesh and is therefore living in the realm of the flesh. During the period we were unregenerated we indeed "lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" because "it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God. A man whose soul may yield to the lusts of the body and commit many unmentionable sins may be so dead to God "dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of the ... flesh" that he may have no consciousness of being sinful......... Unregenerated man is powerless to fufill any of God's will, being "weakened by the flesh."[/i]

Yet, now as Christians we are no longer held under the bondage of the body, the flesh to do its will, and we have the grace given us to be able to do the will of God. And yet after all the indepth teaching in Romans 6,7,& 8, in Rom.12:2 Paul would say to us- we who were born again and learning to "reckon ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto Christ": [i]And do not be conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..[/i]

I am sure you are very well aware of these things I simply point them out because the term [i]renewing your mind[/i] plays such an important part in the deliverance from our own wills, our own direction of thought so that the [i]intuition[/i] that we have is NOT our own, but rather a intuition from God's Holy Spirit.

(That does not mean that even those that have that "Godly" intuition are perfect in it, and often those things that are deeply humiliating are absolutely necessary for our continued freedom from fear of man and defense of self.)

As a matter of experience, Christians who become "sleepy" as you say, or lethargic, even busy or satisfied are great targets for spiritual lies. (Not that we all don't have our own "lies" we must contend with.)

The "soulish" believer: a born again person who is resistant to the dealing of God with the soul and its leadership, or does not come to the place of reckoning him/her self "dead indeed with Christ", or disdains to recognize the working of the cross in the day to day of experiences, may well be those sheep that are creeping towards the edges of the pasture ignorant that their drifting will soon lead them to another place where the Shepherd of our souls is not calling them to be.

We as human beings with wills and the "great knowledge of good and evil" so have a tendency of desiring to be under our own authority. For being under the authority of Christ means we must acquiesce to the will of God which does not further our self esteem, does not seem very appealing and often is very severe to our flesh/soul.

Often in fact our dreams of ourselves must be shattered, our image of our own way must be revealed as a pathway to destruction, the desires for happiness moved aside by "sorrow and suffering", the fearful exposed to places where God is all sufficient, the bold to where the sufficiency of self is demolished, the quiet must speak aloud, the loud must sit quietly. The dreamer must sit under the instruction of reality, the reality that their own desires are opposite of God's.

Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Those that refuse God's correction, that deny the cross of Christ access to their souls, that choose their own way over God's way, that remove themselves out from under the authority of Christ, these will be deceived- and many will be deceiving; and many will be led by their affections down a pathway that leads to the basest desires rooting themselves up again.

Nee: [i]The soulish Christian is eminently different. Though he is in possession of a spirit power he does not draw upon it for his life. In his daily experience he persists in making the soul his life and continues to lean upon his self power. He follows the dictates of his pleasure and delight because he has failed to learn to obey God. To God's work he brings his natural wisdom, devising many ingenious arrangements. His everyday existence is governed and affected by the outer man.[/i]

To the “O, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord...” I say, AMEN!

The Life that we have in Christ is truly wonderful, but it is not always wonderful in this life, but it will be wonderful, more wonderful than I can ever imagine, one day. For now, I will wrestle, fight, take up the armor of God when I can, run for the cleft when I can not, hopefully learn from my mistakes to be humble quickly, to wait for God to be my defense, to be quiet when I should be and speak when I need to, to never trust my own heart but trust that God is fashioning my heart to be what He wants it to be, however plain of a vessel I think that it seems. That walking and learning are a gift that I will not take lightly, I hope to listen quickly, pray quickly, repent quickly, humble quickly- and everything else very carefully.

Forgive my many words.

In Christ
Lori

F
Friedrick Aug 4, 2008

It is important to be mindful, when meditating on these things, of the boundaries of the body, soul, and spirit.

When the scripture refers to the flesh it is referring to the unregenerated man. Therefore, since an unregenerated man's spirit is dead, we can conclude that the flesh is what we are without spirit. That is, the flesh is the body and the soul. To live in the spirit and not out of the flesh means to deny both the body and the life of the soul.

I am a younger person and have been reading out of an NIV translation of the Scriptures, but I find that the way our triune boundaries are translated and the use of the word flesh can be somewhat confusing (inconsistent) in this translation. The KJV seems to do a much better job in this area.

I wonder if "being made in the image of God" has more of a bearing on our triune likeness than on physical appearance (what a shameful use of that Scripture that deserves much much more thought).

Another Scripture worth meditating when considering our soul, "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" - 1 Samuel 15:23 It is clear that rebellion is a function of the soul since the soul is the seat of our will. Oh how I have rebelled against the Lord and deserve to die in my trespasses, but thank the Lord for his grace!

When this thread was started I titled it "The Soulish Believer". I purposefully chose the juxtaposition of "Soulish" and "Believer" so that it would be clear that the purpose of this thread would be to discuss the soul of a regenerated person. I think this has been clear though even though I did not say so earlier. I think it is critical for me and for every other believer to be free from the life of the soul. As maturing believers we need to be praying for this passionately. If we are not living out of the spirit it will be increasingly hard to hear from God, harder yet to truly bless others, and more importantly, impossible to please God fully.

The longer we are ignorant of the soulish life the harder it will be for us to resist the promptings of our soul and of our body. The flesh needs to die. His Spirit does not strive with man forever.

I have been very thankful for the richness and honesty of some of the posts. I am so in need of the separation of my soul and spirit and I will be the first to admit it. Quoting my favourite hymn, "Oh for grace to trust Him more!"

F
Friedrick Aug 4, 2008

crsschk,

Your "ramble", if you may, was greatly appreciated. I was nodding my head ever so slightly at many different statements you made which have been on going thoughts and experiences in my own life.

It would be easy for me to go and make statements like, "oh, how this period of maturing could be shortened if we had Biblical discipleship." However true that statement may appear to be, it still misses the mark because it relies on human apprenticeship and erudition. Although I don't have any single sentenced Scripture to back me up right now, I have a strong feeling that God not only desires that we partake in discipleship and fellowship, but also that we undergo a leading by the Spirit in to the desert to fast and pray for 40 days. In such a place He allows the enemy to come and test us. If our confidence is in the flesh we will surly fail. If, by faith we are so sure of what we have not seen, we understand the utter depravity of our own being and the great riches in Christ... Will we not then choose, in our lowly spirit, the way of God?

A desert. Maybe because it so contrasts to life. There are many things Katz has spoken that come to mind and one such phrase is "apocalyptic violence" and how God wants to make such a demonstration in our lives as that. Maybe it takes nothing less than that. Katz says something like (I am not quoting verbatim):

“Perhaps the reason the Church has overlooked the eternal purpose of its existence and been unwilling to consider the dramatic future of Israel is because each member of the Church has not welcomed the same apocalyptic and violent end in their own life by the hand of God. God is wanting to repeat a demonstration which he made in the creation of the world through his work of redemption.”

40 days is not that long when you are eating. I think 40 days is a very long time when you remove any substance to sustain the body.

These are just some thoughts.


crsschk wrote:

Having a real time of it because my healthy suspicion is - no. Despite all the things, the only right thing to do is to pray and seek the Lord till He leads the course of action or that of inaction. A time to speak or a time to stay silent. Lean on the arm of flesh or the everlasting arms.

"Despite all...the only right thing to do is pray and seek..." Amen brother.

One day we will see Him face to face.

J
JoanM Aug 7, 2008

Dear Saints

I actually have progress on this from the Lord. It included conviction of sin, forgiveness and freedom. Is that not always the way as we go deeper in difficult things? God in his Grace prepared me so I was enabled to immediately respond and as near as I can tell not stumble a sister. He used this thread and links and a remarkable flood of coincidences and references.

It is very hard to write clearly such things but I will share as able. (Jude, the way of Cain, the way of Cora, the Corinthians, Crsschk’s easily locked thread today: confirmation-like).

[b]Out of gratitude[/b] I offer an example of how God teaches me (one living way), because your post Crsschk included a link to “another ramble ( :-) ): A Psalm” and a story that moved you. (The Hot Bottle Water - A True Story By Helen Roseveare).

I was a volunteer helper in a BSF children’s class. Several weeks earlier a 5 year old boy had cried in the class about learning that something he had done was sin and he prayed something to the effect “I am so glad you saved me when you died. Thank you. Thank you.” I wasn’t present at that time. So that part was second-hand. I came into the class to fill in for another worker. God had prompted me. I just obeyed despite being very sorry to miss the adult study.

The day I was there, this little boy had gotten a wonderful new truck for his birthday and brought it to class to play with during the outside-time and maybe to show it off. It was quite the truck and the other boys all wanted to play with it. I noticed how well he shared. But one boy wanted it all to himself. A dispute appeared to be on the verge of breaking out, when this dear child came to me. Because of the Bible lesson, I could not do what seemed more than right (restore the truck to an owner who shared). After he explained, I said it was difficult problem and we should ask Jesus together what would be right (the Bible lesson). With heads bowed, before I could say three words, he popped up with, “Let him play with it.” I said something profound like Ooooh. WOW. And off he bounded saying to the (greedy/bully), “you play with it”. When the classed lined up at the door, for great out-side truck playing opportunity, the truck possessor was first in line. The 5 year-old hung back and then came over to me, almost in tears and said quietly, “It hurts to be like Jesus.” I was staggered and could only nod and say, “Yes it does.” After a quick hug he gave me a grin (!) and again bounded off.

There are a hundred lessons in what he said and did and how he did it. Unending Truth to apply. What Grace God pours out in humbling me. I needed those very lessons, right then. Yes it is good to pray, with one another and one for another.

God’s Love is Divine
Joan

PS - I truly believe God uses everything to speak to us. May we hear him.

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 15 posts