Was wondering what everyone's thoughts on John Bevere were?
There are a couple of his sermons here on SermonIndex, but at the same time I've seen him as a keynote speaker at Word of Faith conferences and seminars (e.g., Hillsong, Joyce Meyer, et al). On the other end, fellow "Old Paths" devotees in my immediate fellowship have praised his book "Driven by Eternity".
Hmm. I've seen John Bevere and thought some of his teaching was good. However at the end of the talk (at a Hillsong Church incedently - don't ask!), he was selling the book/DVD 'box set' of his series "The Fear of the Lord" for in excess of £50 (around $90 I guess), so that made me have some concerns.
That said, the 'Fear of the Lord' series was about the importance of reverence in the Christian life.
He always seems to be on the perifery of Word Faith circles, and is very closely affiliated with Hillsong. I remember hearing some weird views on the 'Latter Rain' and he seems to be very 'Kingdom Now', the church is going to get better and better.
This isn't sourced, I appreciate that. Just my immediate thoughts from what I recall. I couldn't definitavely say one way or the other. Personally I've stayed away for now, seeing as I have so many doubts with John Bevere but don't with a lot of other teachers (Times Square Church, Paul Washer, Keith Daniel, etc etc.)
I don't know if that's helpful at all! Sorry!
Adam
I used to be a big Bevere fan, but have much more reserve with him now. This is in part due to how he sells a lot of books/tapes/dvd's under different titles, but more or less, they are on the same small group of topics. Of a more serious note and objection, Bevere puts forth some interpretations of Scripture "prophetically" that simply are in error. Such is especially evident in his book on submission, "Under Cover," where he teaches a form submission and obedience that is entirely unbiblical and supports the hierarchical "one-man rule" system of church government. All this under an interpretation given by a "word" he received from God.
By the way, Bevere admits on one tape to being Word of Faith. Though, I don't think he buys into the extremes of that movement.
John and his wife have come to the church we attend on several occasions. I tell you, if he is in error then it is so subtle, and by no means am I trying to discredit what any have said thus far. I did get to see him during one sunday morning meeting. Understand that the church I attend time is very managed. Every portion is accounted for down to the minute. John found it necessary to 'sell' his books before he began speaking. He then paced the stage and floor talking about wood, hay and stubble vs. gold, silver and precious stones from 1 Corinthians 3:12. I cannot remember the points he made, but do remember him making the comment from verse 15, that even though our works may be burned up (wood, hay and stubble) we will be saved.
By the way, will somebody comment on Hillsong? Our music group goes often to their worship training seminars and, it seems, we are inundated with Hillsong stuff. Christing Caine just came and preached all three meetings at our church building. It was a decent exhortation...but certainly not reflective of the old paths that we so yearn for!
by Ruach34 on 2008/8/8 0:24:59By the way, will somebody comment on Hillsong? Our music group goes often to their worship training seminars and, it seems, we are inundated with Hillsong stuff. Christing Caine just came and preached all three meetings at our church building. It was a decent exhortation...but certainly not reflective of the old paths that we so yearn for!
A girl in my church who just graduated from Conservatorium studies went down to Sydney for the annual Hillsong Conference. She said the teaching was quite mixed, e.g. Senior Pastor Brian Houston tends to lean towards a Social Gospel, there was also Joyce Meyer (who seems to be realizing the flaws of WoF), and also Joseph Prince from Singapore who's notorious for openly defending easy-believism.
Regarding music, some of the youth-oriented praise songs are definitely not my cup of tea, but I always liked some of Darlene Zsech's older songs such as "Shout to the Lord" plus some of the newer worship titles such as "Hosanna" and "Savior King" (which seems to have more of a modern-hymn feel)
And now the weak
say I have strength
By the spirit of power
that raised Christ from the dead
And now the poor
stand and confess
That my portion is Him
and I'm more than blessed
Let now our hearts burn with a flame
A fire consuming all
for your Son's holy name
And with the heavens we declare
You are our king
We love you Lord,
we worship you
You are our God,
you alone are good
You asked your Son
to carry this
The heavy cross
our weight of sin
I love you Lord,
I worship you
Hope which was lost,
now stands renewed
I give my life to honor this
The love of Christ,
the savior king
Let now your church
shine as the bride
That you saw in your heart
as you offered up your life
Let now the lost
be welcomed home
By the saved and redeemed
those adopted as your own
I love you Lord,
I worship you
Hope which was lost,
now stands renewed
I give my life to honor this
The love of Christ,
the savior king
good lyrics, thanks for that posting. So Joseph Prince is from that whole Hillsong movement?
Hmmmmm...
I just listened to [url=http://artkatzministries.org/k-011-the-fire-of-god/]The Fire of God
Yet, in comparison to many tv evangelists etc...they may not say one word about themselves but there seems such a witness of the flesh in it.
It proves the point of Christ Jesus...God is needing dead men, alive only in the Spirit of Holiness, covered by the robes of Christ's righteousness, without any flesh showing. O Lord send these men and women out into your harvest...
Regarding Hillsong.
I'm 20 at the moment, and for the past few years as one of the senior members of our youth group we really got into the Hillsong thing. Started to go to Hillsong London on a regular basis, and play very similar music.
I think it goes a bit further than the music not being someone's cup of tea. Because musically, it is my cup of tea, but lyrically doesn't consist of the substance that I think a worship song deserves.
In general, and I must've been over 20 times; a Hillsong service has a bit of a forumla to it. The hold the London service in a prestigious central London theatre. When you walk in, you are greeted by one of hundreds of Hillsong staff, all in matching uniform.
The front 8 rows are reserved for members of a few of the youth zones of some kind, and for anyone who got there at 4am to help set up the big screens.
As for the service itself, it's pretty much: Fast song - fast song - fast song - slow song - fast song - pause half-way through to talk about the importance of tithing and pray for a few prayer requests - rest of fast song.
Then the word. The word, now, thinking about it is little more than a motivation speech. They have two quotes on the screens, neither are from Scripture but are about influencing your world around you.
Each week they also present an oppurtunity for people to be saved. The Gospel message is given in about 2 minutes, and makes it sound like the easiest thing to do in the world. "So if you want to become a friend of Jesus, just raise your hand". You then get a book by J John at the end and a post card to fill in to register for Hillsong stuff.
We saw many of our youth "saved" this way, only to sadly realise that they haven't been saved at all. They only liked church if it was Hillsong, otherwise they didn't.
On the way there and way back, a lot of the emphasis became about which songs they were going to do, or which they did.
If I sound synical, it's because I went through a very heavy pro-Hillsong era, but in reality, it's hollow - it appeals so much to the world, that it makes it almost too easy to be comfortable there. I certainly never felt any convicition or heard any repentance preached.
Currently the UK site (hillsongmychurch.co.uk) has a big banner at the top:
"MY Summer - August: the month of parties".
That pretty much sums up my view. There are also loose ties with prosperity stuff. I think Brian Houston has brought out a DVD series called 'money', and judging by some of the parties in the UK, it costs quite a bit to be an active Hillsong member.
Hi adamdawkins
Thanks for that summation of your experience with Hillsongs.
I've so many friends who enjoy Hillsongs, but I've never been attracted to it myself. I always thought of it as reasonably harmless, but I've only really heard the music on DVD/CD. The music was certainly pleasing to the ear.
Each week they also present an oppurtunity for people to be saved. The Gospel message is given in about 2 minutes, and makes it sound like the easiest thing to do in the world. "So if you want to become a friend of Jesus, just raise your hand". You then get a book by J John at the end and a post card to fill in to register for Hillsong stuff.We saw many of our youth "saved" this way, only to sadly realise that they haven't been saved at all. They only liked church if it was Hillsong, otherwise they didn't.
This is tragic. We must pray....
However, it's wonderful to here somebody of 20 being so alive to God.
God bless you
David
I always thought of it as reasonably harmless
Hi David,
I think to an extent this is true, but I also think to an extent this makes Hillsong a little more dangerous. If it was totally of on one, we could easily 'black list' it. It isn't in one sense, it's quite respectable, and a few very good worship songs have come out of Hillsong (I still listen to some from time to time), as well as a lot of sincere Christians, I've no doubt - but this is a bit of a double-edged sword.
Because Hillsong looks so harmless, churches like mine, for example, are more than happy to let their youth go along, and yet nuiances of prosperity doctrine and similar things can creep in almost unnoticed as a result.
I think there's a little more too it too. The Hillsong 'Experience' is a little too clean, it doesn't quite seem to cut it in the mire of every day life. I think it leads to a lot of 'super spirituality' where you feel like you're really 'soaring with the Lord', when in reality perhaps you're just soaring - just on a wave of Hillsong-ness.
I don't want to be too negative, but the way I'd describe is that the Lord has allowed me to go through the Hillsong experience to experience the hollowness of it.
There are probably worse things out there, but I think it does still fall radically short of what's required in this day, and could well be held largely accountable for a multitude of assured 'believers' ending up in Hell.
Maybe this sums it up best:
"Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth. And they sprang up immediately, because they had no deepness of earth.
And the sun rising, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they withered away."
Matthew 13v5-6.
Thank you for your kind words also.
Adam
Thank you for sharing about your experiences. You have a heart for the Lord, it is evident in your words. They ring with truth and grace and never sounded judgmental.
I am ashamed to say the church I attend has a similar construct. fast song, a hymn, another slow song and finish with a fast song. I am impressed they sing a hymn, though. But surrounding it is very loud music and the use of music, in its ebbs and flows, all sound too contrived. The sr. pastor has such a heart for God, though, and recently got back from China after spending time with the underground church. He came back just wrecked, spoke for about five minutes, all jet-lagged and had such a witness of the Holy Spirit. But then it seems back to business as usual, as if nothing is wrong with status quo. And maybe nothing is wrong, but for me it is hard to sing along much of the time and to smile as they all do and say the happy 'bless you's.'
O, dear ones, for the heart wrenching seekers after God, the ones that will give life and limb to know Him. I thought this day about a Puritan sermon. don't know exactly who penned this quote, but it goes something like this: "This earth is the saints Hell but the sinners heaven."
Something that I notice has been extremely popular in recent years is this very hyped yet shallow form of worship. What really stands out to me is how we see so many thousands literally jumping around, clapping and raising their hands to God claiming that they are so in love with Him. Yet, how many of these spend hours in prayer? and how many read his word daily?
The fact is, is that we cannot be in love with someone we do not know and many of these folk who claim to be so in love with the Lord I think are very decieved since clearly they do not know Him. How can they know God when they will never spend time alone with him?
I also agree with what adamdawkins said regarding messages sounding as though it is from a motivational speaker and sadly I notice that John and Lisa Bevere seem as though they may be heading down a similar route. I went on to the website recently and noticed that many of the podcasts seem to be about 'managing emotions' or 'making a difference in the community'.
It's interesting with the worship. I went a music festival (rightly or wrongly!) earlier in the year, and everyone around had hands in the air, eyes closed at times - everything.
At football matches (soccer ;)) in this country, often songs are sung passionately with hands in the air.
I wonder if there's an element of worship in these acts - or if there's an element of worldliness in our worship, especially the stuff that's been modeled on the world.
I felt like I'd not really sourced a lot of what I'd said, other than to conclude things from my experiences, but here it is straight from the Hillsong UK website:
"To reach and influence the world by building a large bible based church, changing mindsets and empowering people to lead and impact every sphere of life."
It's subtle - but I'm sure that's just not right.
Thoughts?
I say this in all brokeness. We as men and women of God have to be sober our fight is not with flesh and blood. I say this because there is a spirit that influences this world called the spirit of antichrist wanting to not only be against christ but take his place in our lives sadly this spirit is eating its way into the church. It seems like even some of the ministers today are watering down the true Gospel and making it a social gospel, a man centered gospel,preaching another Jesus who is savior but not Lord. It makes no waves and it is acceptable to the world and stokes the fires of their sin and makes them feel Good inside giving them the best life now for the worst eternity later. The element of christ ministry called the cross is all but forgotten. And sad to say its not just in WOF but in other denominations or sects as well. It just seems some guy start off preaching The fear of the lord, the cross, Holiness and bam they fall into this trap to perform the crowd says perform, dance for me, make me feel Good" sad to say having preached in a WOF church and other denominational churches on topics such as Hell,eternity, the cross man you are mauled coming out of some churches at one place I did not even get any handshakes they were like just leave( basiclly you’re a poor performer) it was sad. well that same spirit to perform trys to latch itself to the minister its soul power at its best I feel and I could be wrong that this is what Mr Bevere and other ministers have been confronted with. We have to be alert to what this antichirst spirit is doing it wants us to preach another gospel it wants us to sing not to the praise of God but for the Glory and satisfaction of man. In my opinion I think that is what is happening accross the board in the world of the church. Also we have the wheat mixed with the tares and the good fish in the same net as the bad fish however. The lord will take out the bad fish and the tares and perform his revival his way remember he is sovereign and will have his way in the whirlwind. Be blessed brothers
You are exactly right and this is what many here on this website complain of. There is no real teaching, we search for it and cannot find it near our homes. We look for the meat, the truth of the gospel and find it in the mouths of those in far-away countries. The internet brings this reality into our homes.
I also read about many taking the platform of coming out of the churches that are 'in this power' that you are taking about. I have not been convinced of that way yet. Although I want to run away from where I am, God has me there for a purpose. It is hard to not get swept in with 'man-pleasing' etc...but, the Lord is able to keep all who are His. This situation actually provokes me and confirms the constraint in Christ.
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