persons and natures | SermonIndex

sermonindex Aug 10, 2008

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on something.
If anyone finds this confusing I hope you will not be too troubled by it. I've been a little perplexed over a discussion I had.

A man told me that the Lord had two "natures" united in "one person" - one "nature" being human and the other being divine.

John says "the Word became flesh"
So I think the first man must be wrong.

His answer was roughly that the Son was divine and unless he had two natures united in his "one person" his divinity would have been diminished.

I think that this view obscures what John said about the incarnation of the Lord and that we would end up understanding scripture according to these two natures in the same way as if there were two persons in Jesus. That would be more horrible than I can imagine!

"This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"

"These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

The First and the Last died and was dead. I never heard that just one of his natures died while "his person" or his "divine nature" remained unharmed. I believe the whole Son of God was crucified and died for us.

I would gladly hear anyone's thoughts on this as long as they were in agreement with scripture. I would also gladly receive correction by scripture if it is warranted. This is not something I've ever given much thought until the past couple days.

Thanks,
Ben

S

sojourner7 Aug 10, 2008

Jesus nature was divine because He was born of
the Spirit of God. Man has an old nature which
is foolish, selfish, deceived inherited from
Adam. When we are born of the Spirit, God's
nature is imparted to us and the Spirit of God
Dwells in our hearts by faith when we receive
Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour!!

R

rbanks Aug 10, 2008

(quote)
The First and the Last died and was dead. I never heard that just one of his natures died while "his person" or his "divine nature" remained unharmed. I believe the whole Son of God was crucified and died for us.
(quote)

I have heard what you are talking about also and believe as well as you concerning Jesus being crucified.

The bible says the Word became flesh. I do not believe Jesus had two natures as some would suggest. The Christian does have two natures, a sinful nature and a divine nature of the Holy Spirit. Jesus never had a sinful nature. The divine nature of the Word was woven in the human nature of Jesus. He was not half God and half man but fully God and fully man as one being.

Some may disagree with me on what I am about to say concerning the trinity but that is ok and if someone can prove me wrong from scripture I would very much welcome it. I have heard many explain the trinity as three separate equal persons in the godhead and all proceeding from the same essence. This is not stated in scripture that I have found anywhere. The only scripture truly explaining the three being one is 1John 5:7 and some have a problem with it being part of the bible which I don’t. This scripture does not say they agree as one but that they are one. There are many scriptures that mention the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Father is always God period. The Son is always of the Father and called the Son of God. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son.

Jesus said that when we receive Him we receive the Father. They can not be separated as three equal Gods from one another but exist not separate, but in one another. The Father is First. The Son is second. The Holy Ghost is third. It has always been in this order. The Father is God and derives His life from no one. The Father proceeds from no one. The Son proceeds from the Father. The Son receives everything from the Father. The Son does nothing without the Father. The Son exists from the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and does nothing except what He hears from the Father and Son and reveals to us. The essence is Spirit. God is Spirit. The Father is the source. The Son is the expression. The Holy Spirit is the application. The scripture says that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The bible never says that three equal persons dwell in the Godhead. The father does not dwell in a Godhead for He is God and everything dwells in Him and from Him. The Son proceeds from the Father and so does the Holy Spirit. The Father is God of Himself and the Son is God from the Father and so the Holy Spirit.

The Son is equal to God as being from the same essence but the essence is the Father. God is triune. I believe in God being triune but I don’t believe in tritheist (meaning three separate Gods).

Getting back to where we were, I believe the Son of God died as a man and the only way He could die was as a man. Keep in mind that the Sons life is derived from the Father. The Father gave him power to lay it down and to pick it up again. He died as a man for our redemption. The Father was always in the Son and the Son could only die when the Father departed from Him. Jesus cried my God, my God why has thou forsaken me, but He knew that was the only way He could die as a man for the sins of the world. The Father did not ultimately forsake Him because In Jesus was no sin but only a substitute for us. This is so powerful it just tears me up, just thinking about. He was forsaken that one moment on the cross. The Father had never left Jesus because He always did those things that were pleasing to His Father and how pleasing this was to be forsaken for our sins so that he could make atonement for us by the shedding of blood to the death on the cross. We can’t imagine the Love of God. It is too high for us! Oh! If we just had a heart to love Him always!

Blessings to all!

sermonindex Aug 10, 2008

Hi Martin,

I don't think I understand what you mean when you said "Jesus nature was divine because He was born of
the Spirit of God". Can you explain that please?

Thanks,
Ben

S

sojourner7 Aug 10, 2008

Our nature is who we are like. The race of men
comes from one man, Adam; and his nature is
inherited by us. Jesus was conceived of no
earthly Father; but of the Holy Spirit, so
His nature is spiritual and divine.

sermonindex Aug 10, 2008

Hi rbanks,

You said:
"the Son's life is derived from the Father"
"The Father was always in the Son and the Son could only die when the Father departed from Him. Jesus cried my God, my God why has thou forsaken me"

I never thought about it like that. When you say that the Son's life is derived from the Father do you mean in that he is God's Son who is begotten of His Father or are there other scriptures that I'm not thinking of? I would be grateful to know.

You also said:
"The essence is Spirit. God is Spirit. The Father is the source. The Son is the expression. The Holy Spirit is the application."
"The Son is equal to God as being from the same essence but the essence is the Father"

I don't understand this essence idea. Is it really scriptural?

Also, when you mentioned one nature being woven into another I assumed that you didn't exactly mean that (since there were not two natures). Is that correct? I don't think it would be right to say that He ever had two natures or that He (or His nature) was ever joined or fashioned by some comprehensible method into to another nature. Do you agree?

I hope you all don't mind so many questions.
Very encouraging.
Thank you,
Ben

sermonindex Aug 10, 2008

So Jesus' flesh is true flesh, not spirit, but the Word himself became flesh by the Spirit rather than uniting with Adam's flesh. Am I understanding correctly? And Jesus said that his flesh is the bread that came down from heaven.
Sorry if I'm slow to get it. I've heard a lot of different ideas about Jesus.

Thanks,
Ben

L

Logic Aug 10, 2008

Nature must first be defined.
Nature:
1: Purpose, What is created for.
2: character, dispotion, personality, temper/temperament
3: Essence, substance
4: kind

sermonindex Aug 11, 2008

Hi Logic,
I agree about understanding the definition of words before building doctrines with them. That's why I like the way the apostle John used words that even children could understand.
I thought that "nature" was not an appropriate word for the One through whom all things came to be. But I would do better to leave it to the scriptures than to my own sophism. Is there anything in the scripture about God possessing a nature?

Jesus was the Word,
the Word was God,
the Word became flesh,
we are flesh

These extra doctrines of "natures" just sound like "leaven" to me. The Lord Jesus said his sheep would know his voice.

I think that the "Word became flesh" has been attacked in many different ways and that each group chooses a different word to deny. Some deny that he was flesh, others that he was the Word, and this unity of natures seems to attack the truth that he "became" flesh.

R

rbanks Aug 11, 2008

benjoseph wrote:
Hi rbanks,
I don't understand this essence idea. Is it really scriptural?
Also, when you mentioned one nature being woven into another I assumed that you didn't exactly mean that (since there were not two natures). Is that correct? I don't think it would be right to say that He ever had two natures or that He (or His nature) was ever joined or fashioned by some comprehensible method into to another nature. Do you agree?
I hope you all don't mind so many questions.
Very encouraging.
Thank you,
Ben

Jesus said my words are spirit and they are life. The spirit and the word are one.

Man is a spirit but he is also flesh. Man also has a soul. When man became a living soul was when God breathe the breath of Life into man’s body and man became a living soul. The breath of life is man’s spirit.

When the bible says the Word (Logos) was made flesh it means that Word (Logos) became a man. Keep in mine that the Word is Spirit.

Let’s look at man when He dies, only His body dies because His Spirit which inhabited His body leaves to go to the presence of God or into outer darkness.

Our body is just our earthly house. When Jesus died He gave up the body to the grave and He as Spirit man went into paradise. On the 3rd day He as Spirit went back to his body and raised it as a glorified body.

We don’t need to think that his flesh was divine because it was human. The Word /Spirit in the flesh was as a human spirit even though we know it was divine made human. Jesus was perfect man but had power through the Holy Ghost when He was filled without measure. When we are born of the Spirit we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit for power in service for God.

The Spirit is separated from the body at Death and we know because Jesus was resurrected He as Spirit is united with a glorified body. We have a sinful natural nature and when we are born again we have a spiritual nature from God. Jesus natural nature was without sin like the 1st Adam before the fall.

Jesus as a human had a human will that he surrender to the will of the Father. Jesus said to his Father not my will be done but thy will be done. Jesus said I delight to do thy will oh God. Jesus could have acted independent of the Father but He never did. The devil tempted Him and tried to get Him to act independent of His Father but Jesus never disobeyed nor did anything on His own. These scriptures in Hebrews are so powerful about our Lord.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We need to keep in mine that the Word (the Son) which is God became man and could have sinned but He didn’t because He totally trusted and was dependent upon His Father.

I used the word essence because so many have used it to describe all three being of the same substance. I prefer to say Spirit which is God and is the Father and proceeding to the Son and Holy Spirit.

Blessings Brother!

L

Lor_E Aug 11, 2008

I felt compelled to add a few scriptures,
I hope you don't mind.

~~[i]~~Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you may be partakers of the ~~[b]~~divine nature[/b][/i]

~~[i]~~For verily He took on Him, not the nature of angels; but took on Him the seed of Abraham[/i]

~~[i]~~In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form and void
and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the ~~[b]~~Spirit of God [/b]moved upon the waters.
And ~~[b]~~God said:
"Let there be light[/b]."
and there was light.[/i]

]i]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
In Him was life;
and the ~~[b]~~life was the light of men[/b].
And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not..[/i]

~~[i]~~He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest...
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee ; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.[/i]

~~[i]~~But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law.[/i]

~~[i]~~Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh
that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.[/i]

Unless man (flesh and blood) is born again of the Spirit he can not understand the things of the Spirit written in the scriptures, not that we don't all wrestle and wait on God to reveal them to us; we all need ears to hear, as you have said, the voice of our dear Shepherd. Amen!

Only that we have a humans the nature of our fleshly fathers since Adam. Now since we are born again, we have the opportunity to receive the nature of our Father which is in heaven, given to us by the expression of His Word to us in His Son- Let there be Light- He is the Light, He is the Word, He is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. By Him all things exsist.

Our understanding of the "nature" is incomplete; but the question for us is, what is God's understanding of nature?

Sometimes it is very difficult to express a holy, divine spiritual manifestation such as the Son of God with mere words. Although those that have been given are very good, we all can only seek to echo what God has placed on the inside of our hearts and spirits by His Word and by His Spirit.

If we can truly hear the voice of Christ and follow Him, He will continue to reveal Himself to us all.

sermonindex Aug 14, 2008

Hi Lori. I've quoted something that I think is an example of what you mean.

""
BELOVED LORDS, friends and brethren, when this matter of the incarnation of our beloved Lord Jesus Christ was first mentioned by the brethren, on hearing it I was terrified at heart, lest I should err in the matter and be found, before God, in pernicious unbelief. On account of this article I was often so troubled at heart, after receiving baptism, that for many days I abstained from food and drink, by the overanxiety of my soul, ~~[b]~~beseeching and praying God in extreme necessity that the kind Father by his mercy and grace would disclose unto me, poor sinner, who, although in extreme weakness, desired to do his blessed will and pleasure[/b], the mystery of the incarnation of his blessed Son, to the extent necessary to the glorification of his holy name and to the consolation of my afflicted conscience.

Thus wandering about for days, weeks and months, ~~[b]~~I have frequently asked the opinion or belief of some of you[/b] in regard to this matter which bore so heavily upon my heart. ~~[b]~~Yet none could instruct me sufficiently to quiet my conscience.[/b] For gross misunderstanding of some Scriptures which they alleged as proof of their assertion, I found with them, not only according to my opinion, but according to the meaning of the Scriptures; so that, at last, after much fasting, weeping, praying, tribulation and anxiety, ~~[b]~~I became, by the grace of God, quiet and refreshed at heart, firmly acknowledging and believing, assured by the infallibly sure testimony of the Scriptures, understood in the Spirit[/b], that Christ Jesus forever blessed, is the Lord from heaven, 1 Cor.15:47; the promised spiritual seed of the new and spiritual Eve, Gen. 3:15, namely, the eternal Truth, Jn. 14:16; the powerful Conqueror of the serpent and his seed, Gen. 3:15; Luke 11:21; Jn. 16:33: Heb. 2:14; which promised seed is the eternal Truth and word of God, and, in the fullness of time, was sent forth from the Almighty and merciful Father, Gal. 4:4, in a pure virgin, Mary, Isa. 7:14, conceived by the Holy Ghost and power of the Most High.

sermonindex Aug 14, 2008

Hi rbanks. I don't think I understand you.
You think Jesus was in paradise while his body was in the tomb? I remember he said "into your hands I commend my spirit" and "this day you will be with me in paradise." I also remember he said the son of man would be three days in the heart of the earth.
Do you think that when he referred to the son of man he was only referring to his body? I don't want to speculate about this. Can you explain?

Thanks, and sorry to take so long to get back.
Ben