By His Stripes

Thank you for bringing up the topic, hopefully this thread will not get out of hand like the other. Let us each seek and pray to be humble and charitable in our discussions (something this forum usually excels at) and always look to the Bible to tell us what God wants to tell us, not necessarily what we want to hear. Lord, please have us truly manifest the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). If anyone needs more motivation, read the 3 preceding verses (Gal. 5:19-21).1 Timothy 5:23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.Timothy suffered from "often infirmities," what was Paul's advice? Does Paul even tell Timothy to pray? No doubt Paul wasn't saying not to do so, but neither was he giving any indication that Timothy should expect full healing of every single infirmity (in this life).2 Corinthians 125 Of such a one will I glory, yet of myself I will not glory, except in mine infirmities.6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool, for I will say the truth. But now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or than he heareth of me.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.8 For this thing, I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.9 And He said unto me, "My grace is sufficent for thee, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore will I glory rather in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in privations, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then am I strong.Here we see not only Paul afflicted by an apparently rather severe infirmity (some suggest blindness, I don't know for sure), but that God had a good purpose for it and explicitly refused to remove it at that time.

I know that Christ was put on the cross for my salvation. However, the Bible also says that every handwritting of ordinace that was against us, God nailed it to Jesus on the tree. And as we read in 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (KJV)hi bornagainI want to say as a start that I believe in the power of God to heal today. I have witnessed such personally in my own life and in the life of others. We are encouraged to pray for each other that we might be healed; that is the default position for prayer as far as I can see. However, you have quoted a couple of passages of scripture which indicate that you hold the view of ‘healing in the atonement’ and that consequently adequate faith will always secure physical healing. I feel this is a dangerous mistake, and will comment on the general idea and on the verses you have quoted.First, if ‘healing is in the atonement’ in the same way that ‘forgiveness is in the atonement’, then God is honour bound to heal every one who comes to Him on this basis. If God can hold back healing in one instance the implication is that God could hold back forgiveness in some instances too. This is dangerous territory.Secondly, I know that Christ was put on the cross for my salvation. However, the Bible also says that every handwritting of ordinace that was against us, God nailed it to Jesus on the tree. your quote.And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Col 2:13-16 KJV)This is a fuller quotation and I have made bold some words that you should notice. Paul switches in this section from ‘we’ to ‘you’; this is not accidental. The ‘you’ is the Gentile believer, the ‘we’ is the Jewish believer. There was no ‘handwriting of ordinances’ which was against the Gentile; this was a uniquely Jewish ordinance. It is referring to the special rules given to the Jewish people which served as their accusation as they failed to obey them. Thirdly, And as we read in 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. your quote.Again the fuller quotation would have saved you from this error in interpretation; it reads Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1Pe 2:24-25 KJV) In this verse I have put the word ‘for’ in bold. It means ‘because’ and is explaining the previous verse. In other words the proof that we have been healed with his stripes is the fact that ‘we used to be like sheep going astray but have now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.’ What has been healed is our ‘waywardness’. It is the kind of healing referred to in Jeremiah; ; Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. (Jer 3:22 KJV). It is a familiar Bible picture; But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:5-6 KJV) The whole context of the Peter reference is that He bore our sins, so that we who had been dead to sins, should now live unto righteousness. The reason that this is possible is that He has healed us from our ancient sickness of sin.

Hi all,It does seem that proponants of "healing in the atonement" do like to quote the old testament versesBut he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:5-6 KJV) rather than the peter verses, Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1Pe 2:24-25 KJV) thanks for the explanation Ron, it is so clear, :-)

Hi BornAgain,I think you misunderstood Philo. In his first sentence to you he said that he believed in healing and that it happens today. He also did not say that healing is not in the atonement, he just said that it's not in there in the same way that forgiveness is in there.We do have some points that we have in common. (1) We believe in healing. (2) We believe that healing is in the atonement. From there on we part in the application.Healing is not in the atonement the same way that forgiveness is in the atonement, but it is in the atonement the same way that eternal life is in the atonement. Now if I'm to apply your logic to eternal life being in the atonement the same way you do to healing then I should fervantly expect to never die, but I'm going to die. I am promised eternal life however, that promise is in the resurrection. I am promised healing in the same way that I am promised eternal life. That's not to say that I won't experience healings on this side of eternity. But they will be in accordance with the purposes of God.Paul's illness is further explained in Galations 4:13-15. Paul even credits his illness with leading him to preach to the Galations.If we are to say that 'by his stripes ye were healed' is saying that we are healed from our sins, then we are just saying that the Word of God, is redundant.Remember, Isaiah ch.53 is poetry, and Hebrew poetry often repeats the same thing over in seperate lines. Every line of chapter 53 is about the removal of sins and healing the soul of a lost person. The whole context of the chapter is about the suffering of the messiah for the sins of his people.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Mitch,Don't assume. Assuming gets you in trouble. You assume that Paul had no illness. You assume that it was the water that made Timothy sick. You assume the Bible shouldn't be redundant.The truth is, the Bible IS redundant. It says the same thing over and over and over. God gets His message across by repeating Himself constantly. Cause we are humans and we constantly forget or ignore things. He repeats everything!You seem to like to look at things out of context and only focus on the one verse. You can't get the full meaning when you don't look around it. You are out right ignoring the context, so that that verse will fit your belief. AGAIN... From my other post on the Laughing Revival.The verse you are using this argument above with is out of context.I'm going to post the context.Isaiah 53:2-11For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because hehad done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. This passage is prophecy for the crucifixion. This is how the Messiah would deliver everyone who believes. It is not speaking about physical healing. It is talking about spiritual healing. We are 'healed' from the disease of sin. We are saved from the second death. This is not refering to the first death. God could care less about our physical bodies. He does care, but not as much as he cares about our spirit. He 'heals' us from spiritual disease and death. This is the meaning of the passage.Philippians 3:10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERING, being made conformable unto his death; The fellowship of His suffering. We are going to suffer. We aren't all going to be healed. It doesn't matter though. They're just bodies. We are to fellowship in His suffering. Take part in it. Experience His suffering. It is a blessing. To suffer the way Christ suffered. God is glorified when we suffer. ANYONE can follow God when things are good, your health is good. Who wouldn't want to follow a God who give you wealth and health? Just like Job. But the true test, the true witness of faith is when someone praises God, even though they aren't healed. Then people a will look and say, "That's the kind of God I want to follow. Even when they are suffering, they are still praising. There must be something about their God! I want to know Him." I believe in the gift of healing. People are healed. But why doesn't God heal everyone? Cause He has a purpose for that infirmity in those peoples lives. He is using that person, and that persons circumstances to glorify Himself. How they act in those conditions, brings glory to God. God is BEST glorified, when His children suffer.

Mitch a word of caution to you. Hold off on the accusations.Edit*As it pertains to this discussion, a suggested link:Prayer for a Phoenix Pastor & Wife

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."Act 7:54-60

Saying that God is best glorified when we are suffering does seem to me an overstatement, and if taken to its logical conclusion to be speaking of quite a different God than we usually think of. I would tend to agree with John Piper in saying that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.However,2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified)8 Three times I called upon the Lord and besought [Him] about this and begged that it might depart from me;9 But He said to me, My grace (My favor and loving-kindness and mercy) is enough for you [sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully]; for My strength and power are made perfect (fulfilled and completed) and show themselves most effective in [your] weakness. Therefore, I will all the more gladly glory in my weaknesses and infirmities, that the strength and power of Christ (the Messiah) may rest (yes, may pitch a tent over and dwell) upon me!10 So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful in divine strength).I'd say that, all other things being equal, God obviously prefers we not suffer, that is essentially a truism (for me, at least). However, things are very rarely all equal down here, there's too much necessity for discipline and reminders of our dependence on God, etc...You do have a good point about the term "messenger from Satan," though. I think it's quite reasonable to read that passage (in isolation, at least) as speaking of some kind of demonic oppression or harassment of Paul.And do strive to be kind, Mitch, unless God is telling you otherwise (there is a time for being unkind). Keep in mind the extensive limitations on this kind of communication: can't hear the other person's voice (tone, attitude, etc), can't as readily ask for explanations of terms, or logic/reasoning, etc... Make sure someone is really saying something before rebuking them that strongly for it.Remember, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness gentleness, and self-control. There are times where some of those attributes will not necessarily be present (i.e. John the Baptist, Jesus against the hypocritical Pharisees, Stephen, etc) but they are definately the exception rather than the rule.

In relation of a somewhat careless remark made by dear Mitch regarding the worthlessness of suffering I cannot help but begin quoting Mr. Sparks:“The Fellowship of His Sufferings”For Paul it was not something to be shunned: “that I may know him and the fellowship of his sufferings” (Phil. 3:10); there was a disposition to share the sufferings of the Lamb. That issues in a specific kind of people, a particular company; and if we look at it in that way surely our suspicions and our fears are dismissed. Identify these people and the other ground gives way.What all this means becomes clear as we look at it in its relation to all that is said about the Lamb. That is, you have got to comprehend the whole Word of God in connection with the Lamb in order to understand who and what these people are, for undoubtedly they are the people who have embraced, entered into, and become the embodiment of all that that phrase means — the Lamb, His life, His character, His work.What is here is this: firstly, a company marked out and distinguished by a peculiar fellowship with Christ as the Lamb. Underline the word Lamb, the name Lamb, with all that that means, and then see here a people who are in a peculiar relationship with Christ as the Lamb, and with what He means as being the Lamb. There is little doubt that there is a special honour given to this company. They are mentioned here with peculiar honour; their position is one of peculiar honour. The very tone in which they are mentioned is that of a people of very sacred and precious meaning to the Lord.A Song Learned Through SufferingThey possess an exclusive secret. They sing a song, and no one could learn that song save the hundred and forty-four thousand. No one else had the faculty. How do they possess this exclusive secret? Oh, the answer goes to the heart of so much in our experience. You know that it is a true principle that you learn secrets through suffering that you learn in no other way. It is in suffering that we learn those things that no one else knows. We cannot explain them, we cannot teach them, or make others understand. We can only say, “When you have been through what I have been through you will understand, you will know; until you have, it is all closed to you”. These people have been a way in which capacity for something has been created.

Isaiah 53 holds and contains a great mystery. He carried our griefs, our pain, our burdens. Through the Cross – and nowhere else, by the way – the enemy is reduced to nought.And then there is a cross for us to carry, every day. Much pain, much sorrow, much prayer, much priestly ministry.A father’s heart is – a real father accepting full responsibility in childrearing – is overloaded with pain, even unto physical expressions. Are we available for responsibility within the Kingdom, sharing in His sufferings. The modern stance – not accepting the cross, carrying it daily.The modern stance – not accepting childrearing unto adulthood.The modern stance – not accepting a part in the Father’s heart and burden, a formation made by the Holy Spirit.No burden allowed – rejecting priestly workShuns pain – shuns the greater part of reality.Wants only nice things – a child’s attitude.The mystery mastered - and lost.

Daniel3:15-1815 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Hi JeremyI think you misunderstood Philo. In his first sentence to you he said that he believed in healing and that it happens today. He also did not say that healing is not in the atonement, he just said that it's not in there in the same way that forgiveness is in there.We do have some points that we have in common. (1) We believe in healing. (2) We believe that healing is in the atonement. From there on we part in the application.Healing is not in the atonement the same way that forgiveness is in the atonement, but it is in the atonement the same way that eternal life is in the atonement.bornagain is not the first to misunderstand Philo. ;-) There is a comment that Luther made of Jeromes commentary that has always stuck in my mind; Jerome laboureth abundantly, yet leaveth it unexplained I have listened to a few 'Jeromes' in my time and no doubt been a Jerome myself from time to time.I regard the Atonement as the basis for all of God's dealings with our race. Even before the time/space event of Calvary it was still the basis for all His dealings with our race. In this sense everything is 'in the atonement'. Everything we receive from Him is because of the Atonement. All answered prayer is because of the Atonement. All prayer for healing is answered because of the Atonement, but I don't put prayer for healing on a different footing to prayer for a good harvest or a safe journey.The Atonement has to do with sin. It is sin that was atoned. Its consequence was that God could continue His dwelling in their midst. Blood shed in Atonement was 'for God'. It continues the line of truth in the phrase 'when I see the blood I will pass over you'. The blood was for God. The atonement was to satisfy God's divine justice. There are wonderful blessings which result from the Atonement, and healing can be one of them, but they are not 'in' the Atonement in the sense that the scope of the Atonement was sin and sickness. This is 'scope-creep' as the project managers would call it. The Atonement was to cover sin and the sinner so that he could approach God. I will cease 'labouring'... ;-)

'So I'll go away now, I will keep you in my prayers. There is alot in which I think you should all come to terms with. ESPECIALLY on how much you attack people like Brother Hagin and myself.'I think that maybe we could have another schism about that one. :roll: I for one appreciate your comments, but you have got realise that saying the stuff you do in the way you do. Quote:eg:'I will keep you in my prayers, but I shall not visit here anymore. I will pray the Lord of Harvest will remove junk like this from the Internet, I will never allow my child to grow up and see so much doubt and unbelief amongst Christians.' Will more than likely cause someone amongst 6 billion odd people to get :-x I have not sensed that there is 'so much doubt and unbelief' amongst the people who visit these forums. I have certainly noticed differences of interpretation, but not of a hunger to live the truth.For you to leave and never come back, which would make writing this post totally useless, would certainly please allot of people, but not myself. Just think of the privilige you have of giving a reason for the hope 'you' have. If 'your' truth cannot stand up under the scrutiny of a public forum without making you spitting mad then take it away and seek the Lord, we don't have to defend him. Mitch, if your position is the truth then no person should be able to arouse your emotions to give some of the responses that you have. Truth is truth even if you/I have it. That day will bring it to light. The hunger on this sight is for truth, I believe. I believe that 'By his stripes I was healed' in every area, that the Holy Spirit can manifest himself how he chooses on a person. But there is and I will say it again a middle road application where neither extreme becomes the focus, but just the boundary lines into which God wants to pour himself.That within the Church he is able to be God in it, and not be told how he should act.As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Pro 27:17Imagine how sharp you will be when you are through with us ;-)

This site would be very very boring and staid if we all agreed on everything...personally, i have had views enhanced, confirmed and changed by the good folk on this site,A brother on this site has said on tape"If you hav'nt changed your mind recently....how do you know you still have one"Humourous but true if you think about it.My experience of this "marketplace" has been a great dwelling in unity coupled with "see how they love one another" :-)