Is it true that pastor Rick Warren is going to be moderating a presidential debate in the near future? If so what's up with that? My choice would be John McArthur, he might actually get them discussing pressing issues..
Blessings Greg :-(
I think I have heard this...it is sad! I think Christians need to stay out of politics with respect of trying change the world. Jesus Christ is the only one that will change politics and the world.
:-( This is a total misuse of the pulpit
Agreed brethren, this is grievous.
When I was growing up, it was the religious right that believed they could Constantinize America. Now it's the religious left making the very same mistake. Everyone seems to have a claim on righteousness, and justice.
None are repenting for their own sins.
Oh brethren, how little we hear Jesus among the clamor of bickering men. Let me come out from among them, and leave behind my own proud boastful heart. Let me find a quieted congregation, a gentle fellowship of brethren that lift up no name but Jesus saying "I will lift up my hands in thy name." Indeed, let me find a humble fellowship that knows how to say no more at all...one that knows how to listen to Jesus.
There was a small city with few men in it and a great king came to it, surrounded it and constructed large siegeworks against it. But there was found in it a poor wise man and he delivered the city by his wisdom. Yet no one remembered that poor man. So I said, “Wisdom is better than strength.”
But the wisdom of the poor man is despised and his words are not heeded. The words of the wise heard in quietness are better than the shouting of a ruler among fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good.
with sorrow,
MC
Actually, Rick Warren is NOT hosting a presidential debate (in a strict definition of a debate). Rather, he is hosting a [u]forum
Yes, this is certainly strange and unprecedented! I've never understood the appeal of Rick Warren. His warped doctrinal views are often hidden behind his "megachurch-growth-at-all-cost" mentality. However, it might be interesting to watch or read about this forum -- even though I don't accept Rick Warren's beliefs. It might be interesting to learn of the candidates' positions answers to flat-out questions about things that are supposed to be important to "evangelicals."
Is this an attempt to scratch "itching ears?"
:-(
I wonder if Rick Warren will present the Gospel to those involved. Calling them to repentance?
In reality he will not. :-(
This past week I've been reminded once again how hurtful politics can be to the fellowship of Christians. I'm not talking about only hurt feelings, but ruining the trust that comes between sons and daughters of God.
I did not watch the program, but my guess is Rick Warren excelled as a host and a journalist tonight. In all likelihood he out performed the job the general media has done so far in getting to know the questions.
And in general, I wish him no ill will. In all honesty, the Purpose Driven Life didn't really bother me as it seems to for some. (I was mostly indifferent to it's opinions.) And it should be said that his financial generosity is commendable and even admirable. He is a decent fellow, more so then I.
So why do I feel estranged by such a fine man? It may be that the problem is my own. His friendliness with liberal and global leaders around the world stirs up deep seated mistrust in me. However, for many around the world, he is a credit to Christianity.
Yet, somehow, my heart is concerned about the lack of separation in all of this 'evangelical' influence. I am loathe to speak of the "America Church" as a monolithic entity, but I will this one time. By and large the American church does not simply ignore the command of separation, she argues with compelling socialistic sophistication against it. In the process, she has become a daughter of the world. She is a beautiful, educated and well spoken daughter of the world. She dances with princes and reasons with scholars. But can she, in the stillness of her own heart, be assured that she is God's child? (That is, without the humanistic sophistry that we are all, afterall, God's children...)I am talking about the Spirit of Jesus in our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba Father."
Some say there must be sifting in days ahead. I cannot say for sure. In any case, let's be patient and kind towards one another as the world shifts underneath our feet. Younger saints should not imitate the disrespect for older people as is found in this angry generation. Older saints should remember their own impetuous youth, and put aside pride to provide the shelter of wisdom and grace for young saints. The strongest saints should not use their strength to defeat or embarrass weaker saints, but to uphold them. God keep and protect his children, his household where there are no strangers. I pray with earnest hope, that he draws them to himself during the world's tremors and rumblings.
How shall I admonish you?
To what shall I compare you,
O daughter of Jerusalem?
To what shall I liken you as I comfort you,
O virgin daughter of Zion?
For your ruin is as vast as the sea;
Who can heal you?
Your prophets have seen for you
False and foolish visions;
And they have not exposed your iniquity
So as to restore you from captivity...
Blessings and strength in Christ brethren,
MC
[i]Here is the recap of the forum from REUTERS...
[b]Obama says pointed abortion query “above his pay grade”
by Ed Stoddard
REUTERS
17 August 2008
DALLAS - U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama side-stepped a pointed query about abortion on Saturday by “mega-pastor” Rick Warren during a televised forum.
Asked at what point a baby gets “human rights,” Obama, who strongly supports abortion rights, said: “… whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity … is above my pay grade.”
He went on to reiterate his view that it was important to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Republican presidential candidate John McCain, who followed Obama onto the stage of the nationally televised event, was more blunt and more emphatic.
He said a baby’s human rights began “at the moment of conception … I have a 25-year pro-life record.”
Both candidates were vying for the “faith vote,” in particular the one in four U.S. adults who count themselves as evangelical.
Obama took questions first from Warren and McCain followed. The two shared the stage together briefly.
Some centrist evangelicals have said they appreciate moves by the Democratic Party to “soften” the edges of its pro-choice stand by stressing the need to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions — and by also working harder in areas like adoption.
But for many conservative evangelicals — a key part of the evangelical base — life begins at conception and the argument ends there.
The issue remains one of the most divisive and partisan in America — as Obama and McCain highlighted on Warren’s stage.
(Additional reporting by Jeff Mason)
Hello...
Just reading over these words, I was struck by one of the roots of the issue. For so long, I have thought that the root sin of abortion was simply fornication. However, look at Obama's words. They mirror the words of other pro-abortion advocates:
He went on to reiterate his view that it was important to reduce the number of[b]unwanted pregnancies[/b] .
It is amazing that we live in a society that is so self-seeking! They want FAST food. They want HIGH PAYING jobs with little required work or responsibility. They want sex...without consequence. Sadly, they just don't want babies. They value trees, grass, and penguins more than viable human beings. The same liberals who were chaining themselves to trees last month at UC Berkeley are probably the ones filing legal papers to prevent anti-abortion protesters from standing on sidewalks outside of abortion "clinics."
The root seems so clear. It is selfishness. People are truly lovers of themselves! They would prefer to murder an unborn child than to be inconvenienced by a living, breathing human being taken from their own DNA! They would fly thousands of miles to protect a few Redwood trees...but could care less about an unborn child about to be sliced and suctioned by an abortion "doctor." Worse, they attempt to use the legal system to legislate such selfishness from the courts!
God help this nation! May we realize our selfish nature! It isn't confined to abortion. This selfish attitude invades our churches. We are willing to seperate or even vilify anyone who doesn't agree with our own particular doctrinal stands or theories (above those that are clearly outlined in the Word of God). The root is selfishness.
May God raise up a church that truly cares for strangers and those around us! May be exhibit the love of God for all...and become that shining "city on a hill" spoken of in Matthew chapter 6! May this world know that we are His because of our love for one another!
:-(
Must listen sermons, even if you disagree with them theologically, yet very worthy for consideration. Very timely since the election and so on, and also good to think about how involved we should be in the government and this worlds kingdoms. The line has to be drawn somewhere, the problem is to agree where it should be drawn....
anyway, take time for these
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16164]A Holy Nation
But for many conservative evangelicals — a key part of the evangelical base — life begins at conception and the argument ends there.
It is impossible to love God and abortion.
Compton writes...........
By and large the American church does not simply ignore the command of separation, she argues with compelling socialistic sophistication against it. In the process, she has become a daughter of the world. She is a beautiful, educated and well spoken daughter of the world. She dances with princes and reasons with scholars. But can she, in the stillness of her own heart, be assured that she is God's child?
This is a point well worth pondering by all American Christians. I think even calling people "American Christians," could be part of the problem. Kinda like "African Americans," or Irish Americans." Assimilation does not mean that you forget where you came from, it simply means that you now identify yourself with where you are now, with where you have chosen to dwell.
As someone who left Scotland at the age of 26 and have now lived in America for 18 years, I perhaps have a somewhat "outside ," view. What I can tell you is that when I came to Christ at the age of 27 and He radicaly changed me from the inside out, I no longer had nationalistic feelings for Scotland. I love Scotland as the land of my birth, and the people, I love America as my chosen place to live, but I am a citizen of a Kingdom yet to come. My total identity is wrapped up in Jesus and who I am in Him. It seems like many of my American Christian brothers and sisters have co-mingled their identity. Its almost as importnat to them that they are Americans as the fact that they are Christians. I believe that to be part of the problem as to why Americans are so involved in politics. They fear for their country, they fear for their culture, they fear for their future, fear seems to be the dominant factor in their participation. The politicians certainly use fear as a very effective tool to get the votes. Wedge issues make enemies out of people, and creates a gulf between the people that Christians are called to love.
Question for pondering? How many Christian brigades were formed to fight the destruction of Israel between 68-70ad? How many Biblical or extra biblical references do we have that would prove the early Christians banded together and fought for their country? Did they fight for their country, their culture? Or, were they so seperate in their identity, that they did not?........Frank
Hi appolus...
True, we are not supposed to assimilate in the sense that there is a blending of our faith in Christ with our earthly citizenship. We are, of course, first and foremost believers in Christ Jesus. However, our decision to vote (or not to vote) is still an opportunity within our earthly citizenship -- as much as Paul's "appeal unto Caesar" allowed him, as a self-proclaimed Roman citizen, to use the Roman legal system to bring the Gospel to Rome. Rather than assimilation, this could be viewed as non-assimilation. We are Christians who share our voice with our votes (a vote which is simply a voice anyway). We can proclaim our faith through both.This is a point well worth pondering by all American Christians. I think even calling people "American Christians," could be part of the problem. Kinda like "African Americans," or Irish Americans." Assimilation does not mean that you forget where you came from, it simply means that you now identify yourself with where you are now, with where you have chosen to dwell.
Interesting questions! However, there are quite a few mysteries about the early believers. While we don't have record of many who "fought" for their countries, we do know that one centaurian (Cornelius) was a believer considered "devout" and "God fearing" and who was given a vision from God. This happened while he was serving in a ruthless army of a "heathen" empire that ruled most of the known world. We have no record of whether or not Cornelius ever left his position. All we know is that the angel told Peter, "Question for pondering? How many Christian brigades were formed to fight the destruction of Israel between 68-70ad? How many Biblical or extra biblical references do we have that would prove the early Christians banded together and fought for their country? Did they fight for their country, their culture? Or, were they so seperate in their identity, that they did not?........Frank
There are many mysteries in the Scripture regarding the extent of our involvement in this world. I think that it is a mistake to assume beyond all doubt that our relationship with God bans us from any earthly interaction. Remember, God did not take us out of this world. He simply preserves us while we are here -- and endeavors to take the world out of us. Our faith is still, first and foremost, the primary conditioning of our existence. However, the limits of our earthly participation is not completely spelled out by the Scriptures. Like an earthly soldier, we mustn't get "entangled" in the affairs of this world. However, the extent of such entanglement is open for debate. Does this mean that we should not vote? Does this mean that we should not serve in the military? Does this mean that we should not speak out against abortion or homosexual activism?
I've wrestled with this for quite some time. I hear and understand the arguments of those who preach utter non-involvement. However, I feel that it is a somewhat hypocritical argument -- because we [u]are
So where does this leave us? I guess we are back to the point where we should pray about the extent of our involvement. We should certainly share our perspectives without fearing that others might disagree or disapprove with the extent of our freedom. Yet we should always keep an open ear to the work of the Lord upon our hearts and mind through His Word. To this extent, I feel the liberty (and even a responsibility) to vote. Rather than "bowing my knee" to the powers of this world (as I have been accused in the past), I feel that I am bowing my knees to the Creator, and asking Him to direct my votes.
But, yes, I do agree that we it would be interesting to search for any sort of early Christian history in this situation. I fear that we might find very little -- since we might not have much outside of the written Word.
:-)
He went on to reiterate his view that it was important to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Just an aside here in this conversation...
Unwanted pregnancies: something to get rid of??? Are you kidding??!!! Come on, bet most of us wouldn't be here if all pregnancies were wanted. And planned...
This is dumber then dumb.
Now that I have expressed my disgust with this phrase, I will shut up.
ginnyrose
Hi Cccchhhhrrrisss(I always have to scroll back up and see how you spell your screename :) Then get it wrong anyway)
A good and precise answer as to your postion. The only thing I would say is that this statment is a bit of a straw man, at least in regard to my post " I hear and understand the arguments of those who preach utter non-involvement."
I certainly do believe in "utter non-involvement." As ususal, the truth probabaly lies somewhere in the middle of "utter-non-involvement," and those who "put their faith in politicians and Washington." I personally have no problem with anyone who votes. I do have a problem with wedge issues used to manipulate Christians to vote for a certain candidate. I do have a problem with Christians living in fear, whatever that fear may be, and however legitimate the world would say that fear is.
As I said, most of my political friends vote out of fear. They fear for their culture, they fear for the Country, they fear that the Liberals are coming to get them, they fear socialism(anything that is slightly left of center)they fear Mexicans, they fear Homosexuals and so on and so forth. If we want to change the world, its not going to happen through the ballet box.
As for the soldier Cornelius, what a priveledge he had to be perhaps the firt Gentile saved. He was a God fearing man, a term the Jewish people gave to Gentiles who honored God. Yet Peter went and shared the Gospel with Cornelius and his household and the Holy Spirit fell on them and the Jewish believers were amazed that Gentiles could be saved. So Chris, the truth is we do not know what Cornelius did after he got saved. Perhaps he would refuse to bow the knee to Caesur(I imagine that he would) And perhaps he took his place in the arena for this very cause. It seems highly unlikely that he would continue to serve in the army that would ruthelssly persecute the Christians in stages, for the next 300 years. Can I reccommend that you read the book "From Irenius to Grotius," a sourcebook in Christian Political Thought.
PS Did the sons of Aaron fight on the Old Testement?................Frank
That was a very good post.
I thought that Pastor Warren having a Q+A conversation with both candidates was a good thing. Anything that could help Americans discern who these two men are, is a good thing.
(as an aside, I have never read Pastor Warrens "purpose-driven' series, I was never drawn to it)
I want to talk about abortion for a minute;
I believe abortion is murder, cut and dried murder, there is no way to spin that.
Allow me to pose this question: Abortion kills babies, but in this world, the leading cause of death among children is waterborne pathogens as the result of unclean drinking water.
Currently our nation spends $10 billion dollars a month in Iraq, we know that. For ill or good 10 billion a month.
Now we purport ourselves as a nation, America that is, as the leader of the free world. The way I read it a leader's best attribute is that we are noble and our motives are pure.
Therefore, as we decry abortion, why is it not that we make a full bore push, globally, to begin to see to it, that the precious little ones have access to clean drinking water?
We have no compunction about spending billions of dollars on weaponry, and yet we can't assume a leadership role in this most basic human need?
But then there is a chance many here would call me liberal, when in fact, I would be obeying what Jesus spoke in Matthew 25.
Furthermore, why is it, just last night millions of American children went to sleep without health insurance?
A child is a delicate growing soul, that needs top notch medical care, why have we allowed this condition to continue?
Jesus has made innumerable references to taking care of the poor, taking care of the hungry, the "least of these".
Why does it feel that we cherry pick those Scriptural issues that play into a certain secular poltical parties hot button issues, and yet neglect the whole of the Gospel of Christ in matters of public policy?
at the pain of offending, I say that is hypocrisy.
In our own lives, first we make the discovery that we are sinners, we get convicted of this, then in the Mercy of God, we hear Jesus calling us. God willing, we hear this call, and make the confession that You, Jesus are Lord. We ask Jesus to come into our hearts, and plead the Blood of Christ to cleanse us of all sin and iniquity. We begin to read His Word with new ears, we repent, we are baptized and made anew. We seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Fear and hatred shed from the skin of our souls like the skin of a snake. We live different, speak different, we learn the meaning of agape love. We grow in Christ, and we follow Christ, Our hands become His Hands, and then we go out into the world to preach the Good News, and to this we must use our voice, AND our hands guided by yielded hearts.
amen?
But we have to preach the Whole Gospel.
I pray I was clear in what I was testifying.
there are many kinds of murder, abortion one of them, but apathy and selfishness towards the little ones living shortened, brutish impovershied lives, while we live at ease in Zion is also sin.
natan
This is the only time you will hear me commend Warren. I thought this was a good idea.
Having said that, we must realize that these two guys running for President are pandering to the so-called "evangelical right", and will say... and did say... what they thought the "evangelical right" wanted to hear.
Krispy
Welscome Saints,
I think that it was both inappropriate and confusing to me what the purpose of holding this forum for.
Let me ellaborate,
A man of God, if that is what Rick Warren is, needs to stay out of this process, but the forum in an of itself was not necessarily harmful for the candidates.
I think that Barack Obama for instance was not at all pandering, he was stating how he felt and believed from the get go, and it makes much sense in light of the world we live in,
I argue with anyone that believes or thinks that we should have a president that will rule this country like a high priest or king of Israel.
We arent Israel, we are too far gone already with sin, that if we do not have a God led revival , than what else can anyone expect from tow candidates that are seeking votes?
God is coming back for a people, not a country! Blessed is the nation that worships and bows down b4 God, but He wants a prepared church, not necessarily a theocracy of national believers.
let us meditate upon these facts! Lastly, the political process is flawed anyway, so let us call upon Him that called us.
EJG... I dont think anyone is looking for that, or wants that. At the same time, our founding fathers didnt have a problem with religion being an important part of civic and public life in America. In fact, they stated that without a society that honored and lived by the Judeo-Christian ethics found in the Word of God... that America would fail.
I think you've missed what everyone is saying here.
And no, I dont think preachers should stay out of the process. They are a citizen of this country just as much as anyone else is. It shouldnt take priority over spreading the gospel, obviously... but stay completely out of politics? No, you're wrong about that.
Krispy
To rely upon the power of the State is to forsake the power of God.
This discussion is locked.
