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What fire has the younger generation acquired

sermonindex Aug 18, 2008

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came to all the people and said, How long are you limping over two opinions? If Jehovah is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word.

This is a comment written by a lady to a post that I had written...........

"There was a time when you could go into a church and feel the presence of God. You would tiptoe in and cry at the alter and tiptoe out. You would talk about church all day and at bedtime. You would talk to your neighbors about the Lord. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Does your church have God's presence there? When we witness to neighbors about the Lord, do we tell them about our church, do we tell them about the programs we offer? Do we tell them about our softball team or about our free cup or our free espresso from our Coffee Bar? Or, do we say , just come and I guarantee you that you will meet God. Come to Him and He will reveal Himself to you if you will humble yourself. I see it happen everyweek so please come. I got saved in my 20s and was a professing sinner, then I really got saved about 6 years ago, now I am in my mid 40s. I hear about the old days from all the grey headed ladies in church. I am hungry for God's manifest presence and I need to know what to do about it. I pray, I confess, I do not live in any known sin, yet I stumble at times and the Holy Spirit convicts me and I immediately repent. I go to prayer meetings at church. I read my Bible, I talk about Jesus at work and try to get them to come to my, or any church. What are we doing wrong, or me? Is my church under judgement? Or our nation? Is there churches out there experiencing God where the Spirit is moving and people are confessing and their lives are being changed? They are living for Christ and dying to self and carrying their cross? Jesus, please show yourself."

That was a very sad letter to me. I recognize much of what she is saying. In the last several years I have visited several churches, in different parts of the country. I have also visited churches that used to be the way she described, drenched in the presence of God. I was in Destin Florida just last week and visited a Pentecostal church. The young man and his group that were doing worship were visiting, friends of the Pastor. This young man is quite well known in the "Christian music industry." He "performed," for almost an hour. In that time there must have been over 50 different instructions given to the congregation. "Stand up," "Dance," "Raise your hands," "Cmon, give the Lord a hand clap," "Just be free," over and over again. I thought about that lady as I was being entertained from a very talented young man in his early thirties, the same age as the Pastor. As I sat there, this thought dropped into my spirit "This is the results of the acquire the fire generation." As it turned out, when they were finished, the Pastor thanked them profusely for their "Spirit filled worship,' and thanked God that He had just moved mightily amongst us. He also acknowledged his friendship with the artist and thanked him, that even although he was now a "big name," that he would still deem to come to his little church. He told us how his friendship with this man went back to their youth camp days.

We are living in the days when these young men and woman who grew up with acquire the fire and pumped up Christian youth camps are now assuming leadership roles throughout the American church. The Spirit that the lady above is looking for, has been replaced by music that is designed to "pump people up." Indeed the entertainer told us that he moved in freedom, and that we too should move in freedom. Now , what was freedom to this young man? He twirled when he danced, "just let yourself go and be free." Is this the freedom of the Gospels? Is this the measuring rod by which we measure a Christian's freedom? For a whole generation, sadly it is.

As many know, our bodies are multifaceted. By that I mean we are made up of body , spirit and soul. If we are living in a soulish generation, how did that come to pass? What is a soulish generation? The body has five senses. We can see, we can hear, we can touch, we can taste and we can smell. These are very powerful factors in our lives. One could argue that much of human misery and sin flow out of these senses. All of adultery starts with seeing. Consider David on his balcony as he see Bethsheba. Consider pornography, where the eyes feed directly into the soul. Greed and materialism, desiring what our neighbor has, all starts with seeing. Obviously touch would play into all of the sexual sins that plague us as people. Hearing also has been used to great advantage by the enemy. Where would false teachers and religions be without peoples ability to hear the lies? Gossip and backbiting all begin by listening. Taste and smell contribute to gluttony and lead to our present situation when a large percentage of the country is overweight.

Of course all of the senses can be used to enjoy all the wonderful benefits of what God has given us as free will agents, human beings. We can see the glory of a sunset. We can lift up our eyes unto the hills and see where our help comes from. We can lift up our eyes and know that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord. We can look at our husbands and wives, our children and our family and garner great joy from just that. The list is endless of what we can enjoy simply by seeing. Hearing, where would we be without the hearing of the Gospel? To hear your child laugh, to hear a bird singing, to hear the crash of the waves or a waterfall. Oh the joy of hearing the worship of the gathered saints. The simple pleasure of holding your loved ones hands, holding your baby in your arms, a kiss, a warm embrace from your husband or wife, the gentle touch of your lover(your husband or your wife) To taste and smell the wonderful food that we have. Oh how a smell is so powerful in evoking memories from long ago. The simple and wholesome pleasures of all the senses are a delight and the list of these delights is endless, for we worship a creator God.

Suddenly my senses are being assaulted by this young Pastor. He started of loud and only got louder. He was a white man, but he preached like a black man. I had seen the style many times before, it had meter and there was breathing and also after any good point (and there was quite a few good points) there was a blast from the "organ." Before he had stopped preaching, my head was pounding. So much noise. The young preacher was exhausted and sweating profusely. He put everything he had into his performance. This was not a lazy young man. He gave a report of how many backpacks they had handed out in the last week to area children who could not otherwise afford supplies. Surely a great work. He talked about upcoming events and they had a full calendar. This is all good stuff and is highly commendable. Can manufactured passion have an impact on today's society. How is it that with all of this activity, the unchurched people in America remained unchurched? Charitable works go on, perhaps more than ever. The music in the church is more professional and "better sounding," that it has ever probably been in the history of the church. And yet, almost zero impact on the unchurched, those without a church background.

Imagine a cross section through your body, a plan view, looking down. Across the chest is the five senses, arched in front. Directly behind the five senses is the soul, and behind the soul is the spirit. The soul naturally looks out to the five senses. The senses excite the soul and the soul empowers the senses. Depending on your level of dysfunction(we are all dysfunctional) will determine the level of activity. For instance, a person in emotional pain, will compensate by overeating, the soul will anesthetize its pain by energizing the eyes, the taste and the smell when it comes to food. That is why this is a problem for one person and not for another. Perhaps the soul will anesthetize itself by sex. It will over stimulate the eye's and the touch. These are tow examples amongst countless millions. We all grow up in unique circumstances and the uniqueness of the sins that so easily beset us are without number. No one can tell, with any accuracy, how a person will turn out. Now there are basic principals. If you beat a child constantly as he grows up, then no one will be surprised by a violent result. We are all different obviously and five children can all grow up in the exact same house with the exact same circumstances but all turn out completely differently. The x factor being our unique personalities. If someone, for instance, is more sensitive than another, then the circumstances will impact that person more violently that it would for say his brother or sister.

So, how does this play into what is going on in the church today and the dilemma of the younger generation raised on acquire the fire and pump it up messages. This generation dwell almost entirely in the realm of the soul. Silence would terrify them. They have been raised to think that a heightened awareness of their senses is "the presence of God." What a tragedy, not just for them, but for the unchurched world. If you were a unchurched person, you would get the same heightened feeling at any rock concert, and of course, most times the world does this better. Their concerts are their church. Just go to one, one time and you will see these people "worshipping," corporately.

And so, the eye of the soul must be turned inwards. The younger generation, the vast majority of which know nothing of the "presence of God," need to turn inwards and find God within, not without. We all know that God dwells on the throne of our hearts. He has taken up residence in the very center of us. That is where they will have to look if they hope to discover the true presence of God. The presence of God is always totally fulfilling, there is nothing beyond the presence of God. Have you heard the much used phrase in the church now"There must be more.?" There is nothing more than the presence of God. That is why God does not have to entertain us to draw us to Him. The churches will find that they will have to become more and more like the world to draw people and keep people. And even then it will fail. There is no such pressure in the presence of God. There is no more than Him. People who have turned the eye of their soul inward know that and know that if they want to come here then they have to humble themselves and die to themselves, that is the path, that is the journey. People who do not know that and whose eye of their soul is turned outward, towards their five senses, will never be satisfied. They will always need more. How sad to hear that phrase spiritualized now. There is no satisfaction in the flesh, it will be pleasurable for a season, but the flesh demands satisfaction and complete mastery over the soul. The passions of the flesh will ultimately destroy. The passion of the Spirit will cause us to die to ourselves and become more like Jesus.

1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they dressed, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any who answered. And they leaped on the altar which was made.

Choose you this day young people, will you serve your flesh or will you serve the Living God? One can jump up and down all day long but it will not bring down fire from heaven.

R
RobertW Aug 18, 2008

I wanted to single out some quotes that I think are important:

Now , what was freedom to this young man? He twirled when he danced, "just let yourself go and be free." Is this the freedom of the Gospels? Is this the measuring rod by which we measure a Christian's freedom? For a whole generation, sadly it is.


Can manufactured passion have an impact on today's society.


This generation dwell almost entirely in the realm of the soul.

What a tragedy, not just for them, but for the unchurched world. If you were a unchurched person, you would get the same heightened feeling at any rock concert, and of course, most times the world does this better. Their concerts are their church. Just go to one, one time and you will see these people "worshipping," corporately.

As a youth pastor I can say almost categorically that most youth that I know do not understand the difference between soul and spirit and those that [i]have[/i] been taught right continue to dwell in the soulish realm. I think it is because at some point ministers became 'reaction' based. They started measuring success by the reaction they could get from the people.

Many so-called worship leaders get angry when folk don't react to the singing and music like they think they should. I also think that 'worship leader' should never have became a ministry in the sense we know it today. I know that is unpopular, but it is my opinion. The Holy Spirit is the only worship leader- everyone else is supposed to be following. We run the risk of dividing the worship when men are front and center in worship. Remember, Satan fell from a worship 'service' (as it were). He fell from an Isaiah 6 environment.

The reality is electricity is often taking the place of the power of God. And it is a strange fire before the Lord. People are 'moved' by volume or a fancy rift or bass line. They feel a tingle and think it is God and remain unchanged. This is why I believe there are so few people feeling 'called' into ministries other than "Praise and Worship" or "Youth". Services feel like a club more than a church. There is something seriously wrong with that.

sermonindex Aug 18, 2008

Thank you brother for a most thoughtful and relevant post. they must be universal questions at this hour, and i will give you my take.


Jesus said that the "Harvest" is [b]The end of the age.[/b]. The harvest is both a work, and a time. I personally believe that we have entered the end time harvest. the work of the harvest, is not what many people associate with when they consider it. It is not solely a time for Salvation..it is that , but much more. the harvest is a time of [b]division[/b]. It is a time when the light shines bright as "deep darkness" covers the entire Earth. Isaiah 60.


Deep darkness, the glory arising, or resurrecting upon the Lord's people. wheat in the light...tares in the dark. Division. separation. "do not think that I have come to bring Peace, no but DIVISION......to divide. This is difficult for some to wrap their faith around,,,but it is true.


I believe we are deeper into the harvest than many would think, and there is an element of DEATH in this word. "A seed must fall into the ground, AND DIE....before it bears much fruit." This is also unthinkable for most Christians today, and was once for me. I saw my walk with God as an ever increasing glory path arising to greater and more anointed levels, until for sure I would carry them into right into Heaven. I was wrong.

God designed the seed, all seeds, to die; to be sewn in the Earth before they could bring about their fruit. It is true in the Spiritual realm. Jesus , of course, spoke of himself, when he made this statement as the FIRSTFRUIT. ...the cross...the most terrible of deaths. He also referred to the principle that must be inherit and acted upon on all who follow Him. They too, must go in, and come out of death, to live.


This is more than Heaven. It is now, also. It is the only path to maturity. 2 cor: chp. 1.....Paul speaks of the sentence of death poured out upon him...and the bewilderment, and suffering he went through in Asia. It was not physical. It was this...this mandate, this spiritual reality for all of his children. A seed must die; before......

On another level, one that most do not consider, this sentence is poured out on Churches, and one day, even on the "big Church." I believe that this day has come,,,,the Harvest is upon us. We have seen an ever increasing antichrist[ in place of Christ] anointing pushed into the church. It is worldwide. It is clergy-laity..[an abomination unto God, and the gears that drive the religious spirit.]but so much more. It is the church herself that has exalted herself over her Husband,,,the Bride standing over the Bridegroom, to dominate him.

Happiness, my health, and my prosperity are my rights, and I will assert my right. It is ME above all, and God desires this for me. It is a bloodless, and cross free church, and one void of any mercies, or one where a brother would, or could lay his life down for the least of his brothers,,,the littlest and more insignificant one. It also is a christless church, or [b]HAS THE LEAVEN OF IT'S AMBITIOUS PRIDE WITHIN HER.[/b]


I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WORLD WIDE, AND THE LORD HIMSELF HAS PUT FORTH A DECREE. "This holy seed must also be planted unto death, that my love would arise in her."


Hosea Cpt2...vs: 2-24. "I will sow her for Myself!". This is a "Harvest chapter."


There are millions of Brothers and Sisters that are experiencing the throws of death..and the true church is being formed..and she will be "without spot or blemish." this is only possible by resurrection. Only the dead are resurrected. God is calling His people to come out of her...more like a command, to his chosen and Elect. The departure is very bewildering. He looks for a heart that cries; "Even though He slay me, yet will I WORSHIP Him."


But dividing He is. He slays every son he receives, and the New church cannot have any of the stains of the old...nor will she. To accomplish this, He has withdrew from some for a season. "My god, My God, WHY have you forsaken me!" He cried. So must we. It is harvest time, and if the Bride is not separated, she shall have her bundle with the tares. It is Love and mercy.

P
PaulWest Aug 18, 2008

Watchman Nee's "The Latent Power of Soul" should be required reading for worship leaders (and I agree with Brother Robert's thoughts about the office or title of worship leader). Now, we even have the illustrious office of "worship pastor" in some of the more mega fellowships. We speak of youth not knowing the difference between soul and spirit, but I believe the same could be said for most adults too.

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008


I was just reading this article by Hugh Binning:

"..And now all is rents, rags, and distractions, because self-love hath usurped the throne. The unity of the world of mankind is dissolved; one is distracted from another, following his own private inclinations and inordinate affection, which is the poison of enmity, and seed of all discord. If the love of God and of one another had kept the throne, there had been a coordination and co-working of all men in all their actions, for God's glory and the common good of man. But now self-love having enthroned itself, every man is for himself, and strives, by all means, to make a concurrence of all things to his own interest and designs. The first principles of love would have made all men's actions and courses flow into one ocean of divine glory and mutual edification; so that there could not have been any disturbance or jarring amongst them, all flowing into one common end. But self-love hath turned all the channels backward towards itself; and this is its wretched aim and endeavour, in which it wearies itself, and discomposes the world, to wind and turn in every thing, and to make, in the end, a general affluence of the streams into its own bosom. This is the seed of all division and confusion which is among men, while every man makes himself the centre, it cannot choose but all the lines and draughts of men's courses must thwart and cross each other...."

http://www.covenanter.org/HBinning/binninglove.html

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

Robert....I think your church is very fortunate to have you there. God bless you brother, I do not envy your position.

Brothertom ......I agree with what you are saying, my spirit certainly witnesses to the truth of your statements. Death to self in the midst of an indulgent generation is hard going, yet its the way of the cross. I agree that the seperation has begun, the virgins are being seperated and when the call comes to light the lamps, there will be a lot of darkness on the earth............Frank

R
RobertW Aug 19, 2008

I think that the old timers frowned on a lot of things (instruments, media, etc.) that we have today because they could see the dangers. I have heard folk chide them for their strictness, but now I'm not so sure they were not more right than we may be willing to admit.

I think the particular difficulty lies in not wanting to discourage young people in doing 'anything' that is an expression of their faith. I also agree with many of Bro. Paul's and others concerns. These things are like leaven; once they are in place how do you get them back out? The truth is many youth simply have not seen anything else so they have no real reference point. They grew up on it. Add to that the fact that many people pick what church they attend based on the 'worship'. :-?

G
growingholly Aug 19, 2008

oh, grownups...as it were..let us be the ones to fight the good fight, that the youth will see. i plead with anyone who has children, teach them the old ways, the old paths....let us take up the call to fight for these dear children entrusted to mothers and fathers. and for us who do not have any of our very own, let us pray intensely and fervently over those we encounter. these children are the most marketed group of consumers today, and we know who is doing the most marketing to them. let us grieve over their souls, and plead with a holy God to save them out of this.

yet let us remain hopeful that, through the abominations, God will be faithful to set apart a remnant for Himself! let us not be so dismayed that we lose hope! but no, let us call out to our God in a manner of faith! He is holy holy holy!!! He can and will raise up young ones for His glory. let us look ahead with gratitude at what He will do!!! expect a miracle, brethren. that is what God likes to do.

may the name of the Lord be praised.

R
RobertW Aug 19, 2008

The late Derek Prince has a real good series called "Protection From Deception" that I think goes along with this subject. I would not link to it, but it is on his site. I do not endorse all his teachings, but this series is pretty good.

The old timers that the lady mentioned in the first post no doubt spent a lot of time in prayer and fasting for a service. But I am not convinced that folk are in one mind in what the are looking for in a service (meeting). Some are wanting to see deep repentance and others want folk to feel comfortable and good so that they will want to return to that church.

HOWEVER, the bottom line, I think, is that we have lost to a great degree what it means to be truly born again of the Spirit. And since there are so few births, folk have to be moved by what moves them. They have to move in 'soul' because they are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. They cannot worship in Spirit- that do not have the Spirit. So we have to keep pressing the New Birth Gospel message. Shallow conversions lead to shallow services. A service is only as deep as the spiritual experience of the attendees and no deeper. Can a person worship in Spirit and truth if they do not walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16) and walk in Truth? (III John 1:4)

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

Robert writes ....


"Shallow conversions lead to shallow services. A service is only as deep as the spiritual experience of the attendees and no deeper. Can a person worship in Spirit and truth if they do not walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16) and walk in Truth? (III John 1:4) "

Is a shallow conversion any conversion at all? This is one of the dangers that Brother Tozer warned about many years ago, he could see it coming. C.S.Lewis could also see it coming. I am not sure there is a solution on the horizon, I believe Brothertom may have it right when he talks about the beginning of harvest and the seperation of the wheat and the tares. I wrote a piece a while back entitled "Woe to the Pastors for the church is dead." And "The coming Tribulation." It may add to what Brothertom was talking about and what Robert is touhing on.

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/the-tribulation-is-at-the-door/

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/05/04/woe-unto-the-pastors-for-the-church-is-dead/

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

A new gospel for a new generation.

Firstly I want to say that this thread is terrific, mature, and insightful with much depth and contribution from all, and relevant.It is an issue that needs to be addressed, with out instituting legalism as the catch all for reform, for our youth , or against ourselves.


I believe that we have been sold a bill of goods, and received something, that we did not bargain for , concerning our youth. It has deep roots, but essentially, it is the idea that the World will see a "Great End time revival", that will sweep in a billion or so youth. It is also coupled with the idea that the "youth are our future", and and the idea of "youth ministers", creating a special class within the body of "up and comers", along with various venues such as "Youth Camp", "Youth Missions", youth night, and so on. It is not Biblical, and has created a disconnect overall in the Church.


Even Sunday school is up in the air for me. Isaiah talks of the Church coming together for communion.."therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and they shall flow together for the goodness of the Lord. "For wheat and for wine, [b]"The young and the old", the weak and the strong..[/b].


The body is the entire body, that is commanded and expected to care one for another. It has always been so, for the born again. We created this disconnect, as part of our theology the our youth needed special attention to meet their needs, and to make them feel more compatible in their view that the gospel was not as boring as it seemed, sitting bored to death as a six year old , twiddling with your dollies or a coloring book, all dressed up like a princess, and then the boy's scenario similar.


This idea has continued for many, many years. It has been somewhat divisive, I believe in family structure, within the Church, which the Lord has made a paramount issue,,,as you consider the Call of Abraham. "I know you will teach your offspring my ways"...IE; The Godly Seed Word, which is bound within the APEX of the motivation of Faith itself. Abraham succeeded, it seemed. It was not a disconnect. In many societies today, and even in American cultural Christianity, such as the Anabaptists they strive not to disconnect.[with some exceptions]


In the stricter sects of Judaism today, there is a vibrant jealousy to maintain relationship with the child, to direct and shepherd, to maintain the bloodline and hope of faith. The Kibbutz, and various communities around Israel, are a joy to behold.[ not necessarily spiritual in Christ] as the young and old are expected to honor and love one another, in the bounds of family, and extended family...and friends.


In the Jesus movement, we were all young. It was almost as though only the youth culture got saved, and as I look back, I wonder WHY?...It is something that the Lord just did. We were ilitists, to some degree..[I speak only of my experience with my peers] We were however, almost all Babtized in the Holy spirit, and vastly committed, at least in comparison to today. We prayed together at every meal, carried our Bibles everywhere we went, and it was uncommon to not see someone saved daily.


Could it be though, that the disconnect occurred, and was derived from a sense of failure and guilt?. Because we accepted, as we grew older, the unspiritual nature, and comparitive deadness of our unspirit filled churches, we deferred our children in hope? We then, pawned our Children off to the "program"..the camp, the special nights, and then, where we are today. the conferences, that have to do something to create excitement. The music became cultural, as it always does, and the conviction of the Spirit, is replaced with a more easy and more fun, relaxed venue.


Enter the emerging church, where everyone is accepted. "Come as you are!" is the cry, replacing "come to the Cross!. Salvation itself is covered with the comfort food of motivational teachings that motivate you to be a better person, and of course, a more satisfied one. This then becomes the theology of the new Gospel. It is a church committed to the edifying of itself, far, far away from the tenants of repentence and faith based on self denial, and learning how to love. It's not about that..The gospel is about me.


[timed , will continue next.] Tom


sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

I believe that it is not an overstatement to declare that the "Emerging Church" is , and has been established on youth culture. It has become what we called [b]HIP[/b] in the 70s. We had Christian "Coffee Houses", which was quite revolutionary 40 years ago. We used these venues to witness Jesus, and as a fishing hole, for those who may come to Christ. We had good music..rock christian hymns that related. We had good coffee.We made people FEEL accepted and loved. We drew the line at the close of the cafe. The new gospel has refused to do so. They confront with new ideas about church. They have made our coffeehouse their substance for Christian ministry.


Come as you are. We will love you. You are accepted here. you will grow , and desire God, as you experience God's love. It is not unusual to see unsaved people, living in open immorality, attend for years, in one congregation, without ever being confronted with repentence, and Faith towards God. It then stands to reason, that the Gospel Should Not be preached. because it would offend the seekers, which in reality, may be over 50% of the attending Church.


There then is implied, or directed that there should not be any difference between those who have believed, covered by the blood of Jesus, and those who now may be on the "Journey" to believe. It is no longer a Church, in the Classic sense of the Apostle Paul's fellowships, but a mish mash of some gospel and a lot of feel goodism and motivational teaching; how to better your marriage, how to manage and increase your finances, and how to grow your church.


It's roots go way back, but you can start counting in our culture when the charismatic church began to explode via the TV set. It then began to flow world wide. One of the great American exports. It is very, very sad. [I sat in China with a group of young people, who were not saved, but thought they were, having been evangelized by an American English teacher, who promoted this idea to the hilt. They asked me what percentage of Americans were saved....80%...."no" 70%..."no" 50% ...."no". They were shocked, because they equated the Gospel with the American lifestyle of easy believism. Jesus was cool, and a happier faith than any. We are a prosperous club. This is the idea of the emerging church, and at that point, Jesus is only the Grand facilitator to make me and my friends more successful and contented. This then becomes TRUE CHRISTIANITY. I answered my Chinese friends. They anticipated, with gleaming faces..[after all, they had found the treasure.] 1%, maybe 2%, are real CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA! They were sure I misspoke, and were deflated when I explained. Many of them then really knew, that indeed they were lost. I preached Christ and him crucified.


This is worldwide. It has invaded Africa, and India, the Philippines..., the entire Earth....and the reaction of the youth is similar, I believe. It is a non-gospel message, and it is capsulized in the title of a famous book..."Your best life now".

Without fathers, if there were one billion people saved in these last days, how many of them would you say would survive? With the forces out there, promoting these self serving and experiential gospels as the true, and deception increasing everyday...not many, probably. We have witnessed a generation deceived, in good times , right at our kitchen table.


Without holy mothers and fathers, that has the courage to trumpet that the Blood of Jesus believed and received, and a cross lived is the only way to Glory, the church itself won't survive..[if that were possible]. The youth movement in all of it's forms today, has been moved away from these ancient foundations. "WHERE ARE THE FATHERS!"

I think it was indicative of how the recent Lakeland "outpouring" was received. It was at least 80% youth, in my estimation; watching it on the NET. It didn't matter about doctrine...people were getting healed, and the excitement level was outstanding, and the "high" was good. The music was tops, and my, there 's a lot of babes here! Let us return....Oh, and we might just see an Angel! "How cool is that?"


You see, TB was the quintessential youth, and cool dude! Tattoo, piercings, skeletal images of death on his BLACK T-shirt...and the tattoo. DANK DUDE! He capitalized on the new Gospel energized by the defining force...Youth, and the me gospel of easy believism and a pleasure centered better, happier , more fulfilled me! "Isn't that what the gospel is about?


"Shepherd my flock! Feed my Sheep. Feed my Lambs!" The lambs are the young sheep. they would be called the "YOUTH!"

R
RobertW Aug 19, 2008

Is a shallow conversion any conversion at all? This is one of the dangers that Brother Tozer warned about many years ago, he could see it coming.

I was thinking this morning that the greatest sin is not all the carnival like additions or the soulishness of the services but being [i]ashamed of the genuine Gospel of Jesus Christ[/i] that brings folk into a true Born Again experience. Many are outright rejecting the true Gospel and are following hard after "proof text decision" based church building. Many have heard the truth and rejected it; continuing to preach it. Therefore it shall be on their own heads. What happens when men reject knowledge?

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

Hi Robert and Brothertom

Great replies. I believe that another factor to the current situation is the notion of a "nominal Christian." I think it was Bill Brights "Campus Crusade for Christ," that really started to push this notion. An explanation had to brought about to explain why so many could "accept," Jesus but have no meaningful change in their lives. There is no Scriptural basis for "Nominal," Christians. There are "weaker ," brothers for sure, but no Scriptural basis for the person that we would now describe as "nominal.".........Frank

R
RobertW Aug 19, 2008

For those that might be interested I compiled a group of resources that give 'clues' as to why we have greatly lost the concept of New Birth. I originally posted this resource on Sermonindex in 2005 but it is now available on a fellow brother here on SI's (Aaron Ireland cjakforest) blog. It is called [url=http://blog.theocraticfaith.com/2008/06/30/betrayal01/]THE BETRAYAL OF THE AGES (A brief history of the de-emphasis of the New Birth). [/url] It is [u]not intended to place blame or to point fingers[/u]. most of the names mentioned are great men of God. It is rather a resource to help us understand [i]what[/i] we have lost, how we lost it and how we might recover it. There is another resource here that I would couple with it called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24214&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Gospel of God's Great Love. [/url] I hope to return to complete this series soon.


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adamdawkins Aug 19, 2008

Thank you for this post.

At 20, I've been brought up in this 'acquire the fire' generation, and sadly this type of Christianity is on the increase here in the UK (certainly in my area anyway) - especially among young people.

The young people don't seem to have any roots any more. Their relationship with Christ, and even their view of the Lord, will waiver in parallel with their emotions.

In my own life of late, I've had to look back over a lot of past 'experiences' and say, "No, I missed it there".

I just hope others, especially those younger than me, will begin to do the same when looking at past soulish experiences that have been accredited to God.

For me, and I've written in more detail in another post on this, the Hillsong church was the height of 'soulish Christianity' that I had access to.

May we lay down these past experiences and seek that which is of Spirit, for those that worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar".

sermonindex Aug 19, 2008

Hi Adam.....great to hear from you. As you may or may not know, I am from Scotland, my town is called Greenock. I go back and forward fairly frequently between there and my now home in Kansas. I also have a cousin who lives in Wales. So I have first hand experience of what is going on, not only among the youth, but adults too. Its sad for me to think that many of my Scottish brothers and sisters look to the American church for their inspiration. Seems like the mistakes made here, filter back to many of the Pentecostal denominations back home. Lakeland would be a good example.

Can I say, for a young man of 20, you give me hope. May the Lord bless you in wisdom and influence in your local area and Body. Death to self , picking up our cross's daily, embracing the life that the Lord leads us into, whether that will be blessings and sufferings(they are really both the same and you will experience both)is the way of Christ. Follow Him to Calvary and beyond.

Did you know that SI are having their revival conference in my home town of Greenock? Perhaps you could make it there? Hopefully there are people of a similiar mindset to yours in your area? My prayers are with you Adam............Frank

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Compton Aug 19, 2008

Thank you everyone for bringing many good insights to this issue.

Thank you also Robert and Aaron for making "The Betrayal of the Ages" available.

MC

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mackaymarsh Aug 19, 2008

Somehow I think this daily from Tozer, sorta fits in here. Forgive me if it doesn't.

Evangelism: Conviction and Pain

"So I said, "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
--Isaiah 6:5

"When Isaiah cried out, "I am undone!" it was a cry of pain. It was the revealing cry of conscious uncleanness. He was experiencing the undoneness of the creature set over against the holiness of the Creator.

"What should happen in genuine conversion? What should a man or woman feel in the transaction of the new birth?

"There ought to be that real and genuine cry of pain. That is why I do not like the kind of evangelism that tries to invite people into the fellowship of God by signing a card.

"There should be a birth from above and within. There should be the terror of seeing ourselves in violent contrast to the holy, holy, holy God. Unless we come into this place of conviction and pain, I am not sure how deep and real our repentance will ever be."
Whatever Happened to Worship? p. 76

In Christ,
Wayne

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Christian Aug 19, 2008

“Death to self , picking up our cross's daily, embracing the life that the Lord leads us into, whether that will be blessings and sufferings(they are really both the same and you will experience both)is the way of Christ. Follow Him to Calvary and beyond.”

I must say that I never believed the modern church, but through the wonderful teaching of the holy spirit in me and my dad I have found truth in the writing of old. Starting with Tozer, how he exposed the modern church of today and now W.Nee who exposed the half gospel being preached. I only desire to live and die the life of the cross.

I say now is the time to die to self, and take up the cross, no one but you can do it and this must not be put on the next generation. For it is your generation Christ wants to live out his life in you for them. If not we will suffer the loss of the coming kingdom and the much fruit.

The Messenger of the Cross W.Nee pg 19

“No one can testify without personal experience. To put it even more candidly, the one who has no experience of what he proclaims is a fake witness! And because of this the Holy Spirit refuses to work with such individuals.

Hence may the cross which we proclaim crucify us on it! May we bear the cross we preach! May we first receive the life which we intend to impart to others! May the cross which we proclaim be that which we experience daily in our lives! For if our message is to produce eternal effect, it must first become the food of our soul. Through the trials of daily living it is burned into our very being so that we bear the mark of the cross in our every action. Those who bear, branded in their body, the marks of the Lord Jesus (Gal. 6.17) can alone proclaim Him. Oh, let me remind you that sudden thought or knowledge obtained from books and study may please the audience temporarily, but it will leave no permanent impression. If our work is simply for human appreciation, then we have already done our duty by presenting mental and emotional source materials. Fortunately, though, our work is not for such purpose!”

Christian Roy Merlino
August 19, 2008

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