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God's Plan and the Overcomers (CFP)

sermonindex Aug 10, 2003

In the preface to this book it is noted that this small synopsis book that came from the revival magazine came from an original manuscript, the full text of which constituted 100,000 words, was destroyed during political upheaval in China, and permanently lost. It is unfortunate there was not at least one person in the world that did not preserve this information.Indeed, it is true, some of Watchman Nee's writings were not preserved. One can only wonder what gems it contained that no eye does see anymore.

K
Koinonia2 Aug 10, 2003

Yes, this is indeed unfortunate, isn't it? Who knows the countless spiritual treasures that have been lost! I wonder if anything will surface when China become fully opened to the West?For now, LSM publishes all of the known writings of Watchman Nee in their 62 volume compilation, THE COLLECTED WORKS OF WATCHMAN NEE.

M
MarkG Aug 10, 2003

Hi TroyI know what you mean. Just think how much more he learned and could not share. We know very little about his last 20 years of his life. Only a few letters that I know of came out of prison and they were censored. Do you have any thoughts on why the Lord had his life end that way?Mark

sermonindex Aug 10, 2003

Mark,There is only one purpose I can think of and that it was necessary to help fill up "the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ". His life was laid down as seed for the church in China and it has prospered. Now that he is in Glory I'm sure he sees all his sufferings in the light of what God was working towards the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus. That Christ might be "all in all".Kevin

M
MarkG Aug 10, 2003

Hi Kevin Nice answer and thanks. I have learned very much through his sacrifice. When I first learned who he was and what happened to him, I have to admit that it was hard to take. I now understand in a much deeper and real way what Christ did and went thru for us in His life and on the cross.Because WN lived in a time in history that is closer to ours. With the more "mordern" worldly goals and temptations. He gives us a "bridge" to the understanding of Christ and the "cost" of following Him.He help greatly in my understanding of what it means to have "life out of death"I thank God for Watchman Nee.Take care, Mark

K
Koinonia2 Aug 10, 2003

Recently, an elderly Chinese man (the name escapes me) moved to the USA and says that he was in prison with Watchman Nee.Apparently, he is writing a book.I saw him speak briefly on a video tape about a month ago.

sermonindex Aug 10, 2003

Daniel,Looking forward to more information on this guy jailed with Nee, and his name. Sounds like an interesting read.In terms of the collected LSM works it is true that CFP actually supplies more, some stuff that collected works does not have (eg. Interpretting Matthew, chapter 1 and a paragraph in chapter 2 of Rethinking the Work - I could be wrong about this), whereas CFP does not have anything missing from LSM collected works.I have done comparisons, for example in The Spiritual Man or Ministry of God's Word, and I don't like the differences used by LSM, of which I have documented and why, though one can almost endless examine this further beyond a few examples, though for me a few examples was enough to dissuade me from reading any further the collected works versions of Nee's writings.On page 200 volume 2 of CFP Spiritual Man it says "The cross has dealt with". Because we are to always think in terms of an accomplished fact in the cross. But LSM Spiritual Man speaks forwardly, saying "The cross would deal with". It sends a wrong message to me for the accomplished work of the cross upon our emotion.http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv2/1969c1p7.htmhttp://www.ministrybooks.org/books.asp?id=62&chapterid=0§ionid=1&pageid=1Additionally the following chapter is entitled Affection (Not Love) as it applies throughout the book used in this fashion of one of the 3 components of emotion (affection, desire, sensing and feeling - see page 37 and 38 of volume 1 CFP).http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.asp?id=62&chapterid=0§ionid=1&pageid=1The correct word to describe the second component of emotion, is not hate, but desire. See page 37 in CFP The Spiritual Man.Witness Lee's organization uses such strong words to warp the 2nd component of man's emotion.Witness Lee by doing this, is himself inciting emotion, inordinately.Every time I read Watchman Nee CFP, then I compare to Watchman Nee LSM, I feel I have to drop my IQ by 30 points and smother my spirit.On page 208 CFP of The Spiritual Man, in the 3rd paragraph, volume 2, the word “soulical” (eg. natural love) is used to refer to the natural man. Witness Lee’s LSM version changes this to mean soulish, meaning so overrun by the soul life that he becomes soulish. Witness Lee degrades human love. Here is another spot of this change:First paragraph, page 209, volume 2, LSM changed soulical to soulish.On page 229, volume 2 CFP, “encounter God as a Person”. I think this is where Witness Lee thinks of the Godhead as a Person, whereas Watchman Nee is not saying the Godhead is a person, but that God the Son is a Person, that is the Person of Christ. This change in meaning is seen in the LSM version of The Spiritual Man when it changes the meaning to “touched with the Person of God”. Notice too also a matter of comparison this paragraph opens with in CFP “biography of many Christians we discover” is very humbly stated, whereas LSM makes a proclamation, “If we examine the history of a believer”. Everything about LSM is hard and stiff and unspiritual.On page 14, vol. 3 CFP Spiritual Man, Nee writes, “the thoughts which presently arise in my head cannot be mine but rather those which emanate from another ‘person’” is referring to the evil spirit working through another person, not the unholy triunne evil spirit as a person. Even if it is the evil spirit directly, it is the person of spirit opposite to the Person of the Holy Spirit. Either thought is acceptable, but in no way are we to construe the unholy trinity as a person, just as we should not construe the Triunne God as a Person, as taught by LSM Leeism. In misreading, this could be the place possibly where Witness Lee begins to develop his theory that Jesus and the Spirit are the same person. I don't know who is doing the translating over there at LSM but just in these few examples, and there are more than 1000s, one can see something amiss.p.s.1 I also have an artful alteration by LSM of the "Rapture" section in King and the Kingdom of Heaven in several of its parts to show resurrection at 1st rapture (mingling rapture and resurrection in confusion) whereas Nee's KKH contends otherwise if read as is from CFP, and cooberated by Come, Lord Jesus where Nee writes "at the first rapture there is no resurrection", page 78. p.s.2 Nor did Watchman Nee believe in the legalized locality of LSM Leeism (which is reflected in LSM version of Nee's writings to a lesser extent, not found in the equivalent CFP version), thus carried over into LSM, which I have a proof for, but I don't want to clutter up this website.

C
crsschk Aug 10, 2003

Troy,(and anyne else for that matter)Since you seem to have a grasp of this, could you back up a little and explain the corelation between Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, it is a little unclear to myself. I have a copy of the New Testament "Recovery Version" (LSM) that someone gave me, parked on a shelf and I frankly thought it might be questionable in content.Living Stream Ministries (LSM) also, what about them? _/crsschk\\_

sermonindex Aug 10, 2003

crsschk,I noticed on page 91 volume 2 of The Spiritual Man that Watchman Nee uses the word SOULICAL for 1 Cor. 2.13 as the original Word of God, which agrees with the Bible as being the natural man, that part of man that can not apprehend things of God. However, Witness Lee in the RcV uses the word SOULISH referring to the fleshly man so overtaken and engrossed by this part of his being that it infiltrates his whole person.Does it matter the difference in these two terms. I think so. While I believe the verse is talking about the natural man and a man who lives by it and his natural endowments, Witness Lee has changed the meaning to refer to a man so engrossed by the soul’s power that it affects his entire being. Where one is talking about living by the natural man, the other is talking about the fleshly man.The word soulical is soft. The world soulish is hard. Since Witness Lee’s cult is hard, that is why he uses the hard word soulish when Watchman Nee meant soulical.Watchman Nee softly cites this particular verse, the word soulical is used, which is soft and more accurately portrays what God is saying, not talking about the soulish man, but rather the soulical man, that is, the natural part of man that can not receive God.Delicate shade of meaning, though truly touching spiritual life.A soulical man is a non-Christian (see NLT translation), the animal natural unregenerated man. This is the context Nee uses it on page 91 and 92 of volume 2.A soulish man is a Christian but is unspiritual so overrun by his soul, though yet saved. eg. chapter 2 of part 3 of volume 1 is entitled “the experience of soulish believers” and chapter 2 is entitled “The Dangers of Soulish Life” (of Christians). These chapters are talking about Christian experience, not the experience of the unregenerate.The definition used at the front of the book of The Spiritual man for soulical is accurate but it also has the additional meaning in the context it is being used that of an unsaved man living by that animal nature.Soulish, though a harder term, is referring to Christians who are living in their soul inordinately.Think of it this way - a soulical person of course is soulish for he lives by the natural (soulical) endowment and is unregenerated of course, but a soulish Christian is not soulical because soulical has the connotation of not being saved.On page 230, Vol. 2, CFP says, “working of emotion seems to assist soulical people…..is false.” LSM says “soulish”. LSM does not know how to differentiate soulical and soulish. Soulical refers here to the unsaved man. Soulish refers to the fleshly Christian. Obviously, Watchman Nee is comparing the unsaved man to the saved man in this paragraph. Spirit advances spiritual men, the progress of the soulical advance the unsaved man, not the fleshly Christian as LSM would have us believe. We know this experientially by what we were before in our lives before being saved. This is important, something LSM was not able to distinguish in its lesser interpretations. We know this is talking about unsaved men, because fleshly Christians do not advance soulically, though they do live soulishly, and the paragraphs proceeding were talking about the spiritual Christians that struggle spiritually, whereas a fleshly Christian is not disturbed by these battles, yet. Nonetheless, the minute one becomes a Christian they do not enter the soulical, but the spiritual realm where the Spirit wars with the flesh’s oscillations and lack of control.The error of LSM is not to distinguish the soulish Christian from the soulical unsaved man. For LSM just lumps it all together as soulish, but there is a vast difference.Wow. That was fun!! It makes sense if you think about it. Words can be tricky when conveying the Spirit.

C
crsschk Aug 10, 2003

Troy,That was helpful in regards to the soulical and soulish, I guess what I was getting at was more in terms of background, biography. Was Witness Lee an understudy of Watchman Nee? Related? What about the names "Witness and Watchman" where did this come into play?.....the history in a nut shell of these two men.Since Witness Lee’s cult is hard, that is why he uses the hard word soulish when Watchman Nee meant soulical.Cult, being the key word, is Living Streams Ministry and Witness Lee a cult?Again my understanding is limited, can you flesh this out a bit?Thanks_/crsschk\\_

sermonindex Aug 11, 2003

The basic idea is to read Against the Tide by Angus Kinnear here...http://www.clcusa.org/titlesinprint.htmlSome points of my limited knoweldge.1. Witness Lee was an organizer, where Watchman Nee was a scholar. Nee did not care about setting up such an organization structure as Witness Lee did with his LSM.2. Witness Lee's prayer-shouting-reading is not something I think Watchman Nee approved of.3. Witness Lee was careless when he said "Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same Person" and "Godhead is a Person" - this is just plain wrong4. Witness Lee legalized Locality per modern day city, whereas Watchman Nee did not. Watchman Nee is quoted in a book saying locality is more like "postal districts".5. Witness Lee's terminology of God-man is inappropriate, Watchman Nee never used such terminology6. Witness Lee's love for his organization seems to occur at the sacrifice of God in these matters.7. You have to guage for yourselve if these things are a cult. To me Witness Lee ran a one man cult shop on this basis of 1000 books. (Note Watchman Nee wrote the equivalent of 65 books - ask yourself what is a smart guy like Nee writing only 65 books and a not so smart guy like Witness Lee writing 1000 books) - doesn't add up, and it's mind drowning. Nee had an off the charts genius IQ, 3rd generation Christian, reading repetroire of 3000 Christian books, and photogenic memory. Witness Lee had shyness issues as a child and was more like a business man. T. Austin Sparks church in California rejected Witness Lee's encroachment.8. Two books useful to read, second hand, are "God-men", Duddy's and SCP, and "Mindbenders", Sparks, plus if you give me your email address I can send you about 30 articles against Witness Lee on various matters, for bereans articles to CRI articles to Jim Moran articles.

C
crsschk Aug 11, 2003

Hmmm, couldn't find that there (against the tide)that's O.K. though, thanks for the info.My limited understanding had me apprehensive of LSM and Lee, recall reading a few things through CRI, but it has been a while now. More curious in what these two had in common, if anything at all.So, sure, send what ever may pertain, it would be appreciated. Will pm my email over to you. Thanks,_/crsschk\\_

K
Koinonia2 Aug 11, 2003

Troy has some kind of vendetta against Witness Lee and LSM that prevents him from answering clearly. So, take caution... Witness Lee is certainly very controversial, but he is definitely NOT the leader of a cult. His writings are highly recommended (try "The Experience of Life," "The Economy of God," "Abraham: Called by God," or "Watchman Nee: A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age"), and are appreciated by thousands of Christians who are not involved in the "local church" movement. Basically, the history is this: Witness Lee was one of Watchman Nee's closest coworkers in Mainland China, the editor of Nee's magazines during the absence of both Nee and the acting editor, Ruth Lee. Witness Lee took responsibility in the Church in Shanghai and ministered there during Watchman Nee's absence from the ministry for a few years. When the Communists took over China, Watchman Nee commissioned Witness Lee to go to Taiwan and continue the literature work from that island. Under Nee's guidance, Witness Lee set up the "Taiwan Gospel Bookroom," which is the offical publisher of Watchman Nee's titles in Chinese and continues publishing today. In 1962, Witness Lee moved to the United States desiring to bring the truths they had seen in China into the English language. Living Stream Ministry is the official publisher of Witness Lee's books in English, and also publishes dozens of titles by Watchman Nee (including "The Collected Works").

K
Koinonia2 Aug 11, 2003

Ok....let me answer Troy's points one by one:1. Witness Lee was an organizer, where Watchman Nee was a scholar. Nee did not care about setting up such an organization structure as Witness Lee did with his LSM.2. Witness Lee's prayer-shouting-reading is not something I think Watchman Nee approved of.3. Witness Lee was careless when he said "Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same Person" and "Godhead is a Person" - this is just plain wrong4. Witness Lee legalized Locality per modern day city, whereas Watchman Nee did not. Watchman Nee is quoted in a book saying locality is more like "postal districts".5. Witness Lee's terminology of God-man is inappropriate, Watchman Nee never used such terminology6. Witness Lee's love for his organization seems to occur at the sacrifice of God in these matters.7. You have to guage for yourselve if these things are a cult. To me Witness Lee ran a one man cult shop on this basis of 1000 books. (Note Watchman Nee wrote the equivalent of 65 books - ask yourself what is a smart guy like Nee writing only 65 books and a not so smart guy like Witness Lee writing 1000 books) - doesn't add up, and it's mind drowning. Nee had an off the charts genius IQ, 3rd generation Christian, reading repetroire of 3000 Christian books, and photogenic memory. Witness Lee had shyness issues as a child and was more like a business man. T. Austin Sparks church in California rejected Witness Lee's encroachment.8. Two books useful to read, second hand, are "God-men", Duddy's and SCP, and "Mindbenders", Sparks, plus if you give me your email address I can send you about 30 articles against Witness Lee on various matters, for bereans articles to CRI articles to Jim Moran articles.1 - This is somebody's opinion based on little (if any) evidence. Watchman Nee had a publishing operation (Shanghai Gospel Bookroom) and so did Witness Lee (Living Stream Ministry). What is the problem here?2 - There is no such thing as "prayer-shouting-reading." "Pray-reading" does not necessarily have to do anything with shouting. The idea of praying the Scriptures comes from Madame Guyon's book, "A Short and Easy Method on Prayer" (now published under the title "Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ" by Seedsowers), which Watchman Nee himself had published in Chinese!3 - I'm not a theologian, so I cannot properly answer this. This may indeed be careless terminology, I don't know. Witness Lee had a highly developed theology on the Lord becoming the Spirit (and yes....the Spirit is the eternal God, always existing) which was taken from Andrew Murray's book "The Spirit of Christ" (see chapter 5 specifically).4 - The churches in the New Testament were organized as the church in their respective cities. This is documented over and over again. As for who legalized what, you've yet to give evidence of how Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are different (I do not believe they are). In fact, many have accused Watchman Nee of being very legal on this, and even sectarian (especially in his books "Concerning Our Missions," and "Further Talks on the Church Life." As for the postal districts, Watchman Nee was referring specifically to the city of London which is organized in (I believe) 33 boroughs which are each as their own city (ie - Westminster, Putney, Wandsworth, etcetera). All Watchman Nee was proposing was instead of "The Church in London," that each borough (which are the postal districts) would be a church, such as "The Church in Westminster," "The Church in Putney," etcetera.5 - Please explain how this is inappropriate.6 - Please explain Witness Lee's "love for his organization" (what organization?), as well as how God has been sacrificed, and what matters you are referring to. These are just vague accusations with no basis. 7 - Both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee only wrote a couple of books each. All of the rest are transcriptions of their spoken messages. Furthermore, the claim that Witness Lee has 1,000 books out there is absolutely absurd. Living Stream Ministry only even sells 59 books by him! Check their website (www.livingstream.com). Also, I'm curious as to where you learned Watchman Nee's IQ, and what anybody's shyness has to do with book publishing. The history of the Westmoreland Chapel (you accuse Witness Lee of encroachment) is complicated, but there was certainly no foul-play. Witness Lee began ministering there at the invititation of their pastor (C.J.B. Harrison)!8 - The Minbenders was retracted by the publishers over 2 decades ago. The God-Men was found to be libellous in a court of law around 20 years ago. Neither of these books has been sold legally since the 1980's. CRI criticizes almost everybody and are themselves questionable. Jim Moran was a recluse who refused to engage in reasonable debate, and based most of his arguments on the above 2 books.

C
crsschk Aug 11, 2003

Thanks DanielJ,Historicaly, that was more what I was looking for.Did pop over to the LSM site and read up on Lee's testimony.Thoughts on the Recovery Version?

K
Koinonia2 Aug 11, 2003

The Recovery Version is useful. Its had a lot of success lately in the USA through their free "Bibles for America" distribution programme (www.biblesforamerica.org). The fact is that those who are vehemently opposed to Witness Lee and LSM will tell you not to read it, it is doctrinally unsound, it is cultic, etc., etc. However, while I am aware of all of these accusations, my own experience in reading their literature simply does not match these accusations, and my spirit is always edified. Now, back to the Recovery Version....yes, I find it useful, if tedious to read this version (the footnotes, I mean, are very weighty...quick reading is impossible). Some people are just crazy about it. I find the footnotes a bit on the sterile side at times, but what can you expect with footnotes? The translation is fine, generally almost exactly the same as other major versions. When there is a change, it is always explained.In many places, it is extremely insightful. For a taste, try looking at the footnotes for the genealogies in Matthew. You will see those verses in an entirely new light!So, I'd sum up by saying that, according to my feeling, the Recovery Version is a good resource to have around. I would encourage you, though, to come to your own conclusions by looking into it yourself. Anyone can say that something is "dangerous" or "cultic," but what if it isn't? What if you're missing out? Likewise, why believe what I say about it? :-)

C
crsschk Aug 11, 2003

Thanks Daniel,More out of curiosity than anything, I was looking for some feedback. Since I am right now in Epehsians, 1 Cor, and John (for whatever reason) and as usual reading 10 different books at the same time, not to mention a mixed bag of sermons (Ravenhill, Reidhead, Yohannan)...Was (am) reading Nee's book on Spiritual Wisdom and Revelation when this particular post came up.Now, back to the Recovery Version....yes, I find it useful, if tedious to read this version (the footnotes, I mean, are very weighty...quick reading is impossible). Some people are just crazy about it. I find the footnotes a bit on the sterile side at times, but what can you expect with footnotes?'Quick reading is impossible', that's for sure!In regards to footnotes, something that drives me nut's sometimes is for instance my study Bible.(John MaCarthur NKJV)Seem's the particular verse I may be reading will raise a question in my mind, look to the footnotes and that is the verse that get's skipped over!On the other hand that just makes me dig deeper to try and find some clarity.... I would encourage you, though, to come to your own conclusions by looking into it yourself. Anyone can say that something is "dangerous" or "cultic," but what if it isn't? What if you're missing out? Likewise, why believe what I say about it?Indeed,Just skimming for wisdom, appreciate your input.Thanks_/crsschk\\_

M
MarkG Aug 11, 2003

Hi to allI agree with Daniel that the "Recovery Version is useful"It's interesting that I was just replying to a question about Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. I will add it here. Thanks for you reply. Let me try and answer your question concerning the local church this way. This is part of a letter that I sent to someone when I was trying to defend the reputation of Watchman Nee. It’s interesting to note that my fellowship was broken with them in part because of my interest in WN and their linking him to Witness Lee. Written beginning 2003I want to start off by saying that I have very little reason to use the name of Witness Lee. I only want to say that under his leadership of today’s so called “local church” there has been much misunderstanding concerning WN. They in a since have used him for there own gain. In the results has slandered his name and ministry. I hope that this will sum up my feeling in this matter. Several years ago, thru the internet, I found out that a “local church” was located in my area. I was pretty excited when I found this out, made contact with them and started to attend their fellowship. My mother also wanted to attend and we went together. She read WN before I even started to really seek our Lord. I had use of her library and I started to read WN teachings. Well it was not long before we saw that there was something wrong in the “local church” and this way of meeting. First of all it was not and in any way what WN taught us concerning the true Church. I have over 60 of his books and at least ¼ or more are on the true Church or the Body of Christ. I will get into this more later. I stopped fellowshipping with them after a few weeks. My mother stayed a few more week because of the true friendship that they gave her. She felt that they keep reaching out to her and that made it hard to stop fellowshipping with them. When she talks about them frankly, she uses the word “cult”. I agree. To make a long story shorter. My mom and I met a lady in the “local church” that had been a member for a couple decades and in the early 60’s had ties to another one of my so called “teachers” (not in the local church, T Austin Sparks). Her husband died many years ago. When he died she had no other place to go and the fact that the people were so good to her she could not leave. She stayed there and thru the years they even became more cult like. To try to finish this part quickly I will say that I learned a lot of lessons in that short time and both my mother and my self believe that the Lord sent us in to bring Jowanna out. My mother more then myself had fellowship with her until her death a few years ago. The changes that I saw in her after she came out, will always be with me. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee (local church) are a study in contrast, the same way that Hagar’s type is to that of Sarah.The main reason that I knew that something was wrong in these meetings was that they had no clue who the Holy Spirit was and how He works. In other words there was no “life” in the fellowship. I find that this goes deeper that I can convey with the written word. I hope that I did enough to answer some of what you asked.I will give more details if needed.Mark

sermonindex Aug 11, 2003

Let us note very specific things in those that defend Witness Lee in their manipulations, when the truth is revealed about them, and tactics and strategems they employ, in this commentary, by examining the false accusatory remarks by the Leeists, who hath not an ear to hear, and are well adept at legal actions, and rationalizing their positions, however still wrong; plus I will address other stuff too, even repeat myself to maintain the position already held so it is not deflected as is being attempted by the Leeists, through various ways of attacks:1. That link does have the book, Against the Tide, look again.2. I am being falsely accussed (by Daniel) of having a vendetta against Witness Lee. Don't believe this lie.3. In the CRI article when Witness is shown saying "Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same Person", and "Godhead is a Person", and emphasis on successionism, we necessarily must also see that we are an extension of God, which is wrong, for we are not (rather it is a methaphor), nor is the church as Witness Lee members says "Christ is not only the head but also the body" leaving one to conlude God must become the church. This is a different theology. This is the problem with sabellianistic successionism. There is attempts to obfuscate this away, though LSM fails each time, but it cares for more for its organization and legal actions to uphold its one-man cult shop of 1000 careless writings.4. Daniel says "his writings are highly recommended". Rebuke this proclamation in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.5. Daniel says Witness Lee is "not the leader of a cult". Rebuke this in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.6. Daniel says Witness Lee is "certainly very controversial". This is an admittance of truth, though it should not be taken as appealing and profitable controversy, but rather the core of Witness Lee's errors being the source of the controversy. I have no doubt the LSM members pride themselves on such controversy. I view such errors and stepping where you should not put your foot, making yourself a God-man. Rebuke these efforts of playing with fire for as that CRI article shows, each time there is negative consequences.7. Daniel says these books of Lee's are appreciated by thousands of Christians. Remember, even Satan appreciates. A Christian should not appreciate that which is an entry into further deception and that is what the mind-drowning of 1000 Leeist books is all about, feeding some truths so as to later to lead into untruths. That is how cults work. We are all aware of this methodology. Mormons don't come out and say their deep hidden secrets until you are deeply entrenched. I am glad I have been able to show some of them right off the bat.8. I have been accussed by Daniel of not answering clearly, again falsely accussed, falsely blamed by the legal organization of LSM. I merely would rather you read more comprehensive works like Against the Tide, rather than jumping to conclusions and relying on soundbites to form an opinion as the Leeist will love to offer you to propigate Leeism marring Witness Lee to Watchman Nee, that which they so love to do riding on Watchman Nee's coat tails to give Witness Lee credibility, but coming out and saying where Witness Lee and Watchman Nee differ, Witness Lee is right and Watchman Nee is wrong. This is what they say. I have heard this said many a time. It is all trickeries for LSM. Obviously Watchman Nee was right. Witness Lee was wrong on many matters in examining any of it with more depth.9. There is no doubt Witness Lee took over, not just for "a few years" as Daniel tries to suggest, but in reality, for almost 50 years for Nee was jailed for the rest of his life. It was out of Watchman Nee's hands, not approved by Watchman Nee.10. I was just looking at Ministry of God's Word today and CFP uses the word "Person" to describe Jesus Christ, but in these same paragraphs in each instance Witness Lee's version refuses to use the same exact word, which comprises Witness Lee theology. Suttle ways always are the ways of deception.11. The claim of Witness Lee being a man of organization, where Watchman Nee is a man of scholarly and spiritual calling, is shown and revealed in many stories and testimonies, throughout Against the Tide, God-men and Mindbenders, so it is an easy claim to make; no doubt it is observed even today in the well organized system of the LSM website linking matrix to itself that it has generated.12. Remember, the prayer-shouting-reading or prayer-reading is attempted to be justified through Madam Guyon's book, but if you read her book you will find what she teaches and what Leeist teach have absolutely nothing to do with each other at all, none whatsover, of a different character and nature (Guyon being mystical, LSM being aggressive repetitive mindless sedative mantras).13. Daniel says Witness Lee has a highly developed theology. This is deceptive to say this. It is not highly developed in a good way (nor is it even highly developed, but rather quite mindless and shallow and unhealthy not knowing man’s true condition), but in a bad way because it attempts to defend and rationalize existing errors. Notice how Daniel blithes calling the Godhead a Person, because Daniel is not a scholar, Daniel says. Remember, it does not take a scholar to realize that the Godhead is not a Person (but 3 Persons) and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same Person of the Trinity (but 2 separate Persons). Witness Lee hates to consider this as fact. Even Daniel admits perhaps Witness Lee was "careless". Here again we see some admittance of the truth, though reluctantly. Men who rationalize their errors are not men of God. What Daniel does do is minimize this matter saying "I cannot answer this", “I do not know”, leaving Witness Lee off the hooks, yet at the same time saying it is a "highly developed theology" giving it some highly esteemed value. This is duplictous to say the least. To throw in a comment of Andrew Murray does not solve the problem, in attempt to gain credibility. That was merely a deflection.13. On locality, the simple difference is that while Witness Lee says a city like Los Angeles of millions of people is proper locality. Watchman Nee says, like London, it is broken up into many smaller localities as true locality is like "postal districts". Just like Rome was never referred to as the "church in Rome", only the "Saints in Rome" because Rome had a million people, whereas the next largest city was Jerusalem" of 40,000 people, an acceptable locality of "church in Jerusalem". Some accussed Nee of improper legalized locality, but I have an article of Watchman Nee that shows otherwise; the accusations against Watchman Nee for improper locality have more to do with shallow people marrying Witness Lee with Watchman Nee for the errors came about because of Witness Lee, not Watchman Nee. It is all quite sneaky, how LSM always tries to gain itself credibility this way. Rebuke it in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The evil spirit loves to run through this modern day city denominationalism. The purpose of true locality is to prevent such denominationalism and upper room pride papacy per city, for example like the denomination, The Local LSM Leeist Church. Remember, modern day city locality is not biblical city locality, and Watchman Nee never held it over others like Witness Lee did, but used helpful examples to talk about proper locality and proper application. That is the difference. I find Witness Lee to be a shallow business-man-for-profit-control-and-power-not-for-God.14. The terminology God-man is wrong, obviously since man is not God. Rebuke and refuse the rationalizations that pour fourth from LSM to exalt this terminology upon themselves.15. I have been asked by Daniel what organization? Living Stream Ministry. How odd to even ask such a question. The consequence of Leeist love for his organization above God is of course the cause of many of his errors or simply part and parcel of a deeper seated unrenewed conscience in Witness Lee and no heart to keep God's Word when trying to make the body of Christ actually Christ himself revealed in Witness Lee’s writings.16. Some additional attempts by Daniel to defend Witness Lee. He said Witness Lee does not sell 1000 books. Order from their website the catalogue itself. They sell over 1000 of Witness Lee's books in that catalogue, but Daniel says only "59 books". When you get deeper into a cult, you only find out these other things later on. With me, Praise the Lord, I am offer the truth NOW and I do not do this for me, but to glorify Jesus Christ at the right hand of the Father.17. Witness Lee's shyness, when coming out of it, is expressed in his outward conduct from the organization creating, to volumous writings, to the sin of the spirit of spiritual pride, thinking he has something others need to get, cause for error, cause for carelessness. Watchman Nee had an IQ that was of the genius level. He always had the highest marks in his class, others always testified to this. Plus it is said Watchman Nee had a photogenic memory, an authentic one. Bottom line - Watchman Nee was the real deal, a true delegated authority, while Witness Lee was a man who rode on Watchman Nee's coat tails and milked it for all its worth and brought much disrepute to Watchman Nee in false accusation through association by past affiliation, that were Witness Lee’s sins, not Watchman Nee’s. To be sure if hypothetically Watchman Nee were alive today he would rebuke much of Witness Lee organization and Witness Lee's writings and Witness Lee’s alterations.18. Witness Lee was simply rejected by the California T. Austin Sparks church because they did not like the Leeist spirit approach towards things, that is all, as should be evident by my commentary here. This is as Daniel says "foul play" indeed.19. Mindbenders was retracted for fear of going broke under the constant legal actions of Lee's organization destroy SCP and attempts at destroying others, but it is a very good book. God-men was only found libellous because of the legal system and financial resources employed in the attack against the good man Dudley, that is all. I have the book. Good book, though it was wrong about the dividing of spirit, soul and body, just as Jim Moran is also wrong about the dividing of spirit, soul and body, just as CRI and Bereans are wrong about the dividing of spirit, soul and body. Watchman Nee got it right in The Spiritual Man. http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968cont.htm Hiding this truth is unethical of Daniel and LSM's strategems. Man's legal system is not always God's truth. True men of God never defend themselves this way. 20. Daniel's self-proclaiming proclamation that CRI articles always accuses people as the reason to disregard the writing so as not to dig deep and examine the truth,which I will supply next, which I assure you, with a little examination, is, you will agree, a great article, will in no way thwart the truth exposing several errors of Leeism and LSM, for those who hath an ear to hear.21. Jim Moran is being falsely accussed of being a recluse and that he refused to engage in debate as being the cause to avoid his writings. These are just false accusations of the evil spirit, and men should never be so blamed for not arguing or being recluse, and should not be reasons to avoid what Jim Moran wrote. Moreover, now that Jim Moran is dead (how he has died is uncertain and whether LSM had any involvement in that is a question one has the right to ask, even for the police authorities) and his website taken over by LSM, with the claim that his writings are now allowed to be reproduced is balarny legalism manipulations by LSM which is more of the same character of old these past 40 years by Leeist scientology type suing-control methods.22. The Recovery Version scripture itself and notes within are a big picture document of all these errors and rationalizations of defense for LSM and Leeism.

K
Koinonia2 Aug 11, 2003

I have had many opportunities to attend "local church" meetings and I have had the exact opposite experience. I have no problem fellowshipping with them.Using the word "cult" is an extremely serious issue. It is not a word to be used lightly at all. Please explain to us why they are a "cult." Neither minor doctrinal differences nor differences in practice make a group a cult.It is only fair that you tell us what you think a cult is and then proceed to explain why the "local church" matches that description.

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