all will be healed?

Dear ones,

Some people around me believe everybody will get healed if we believe and pray. How do we interpreted this from scripture? In the gospels I see nobody didn't get healed, only people who stayed sick sometimes because of the unbelief in the area etc.
What's a good way to look at healing? Does everybody get healed? And even if some get not healed...is that something that has to do with us as people (unbelief? sin? etc.) or what's God will in all of this? Is it Gods will to heal?
A lot of questions but I hope you guys can help me. I'm investigating this also because there is sickness in my wife's family. And some people start to listen to preachers like andrew wommack etc. and they believe him about that everybody should get healed etc. But I want the biblical basis for healing.

Anyone?

Healing is a sovereign matter of God's will
and mercy. We must be mindful of the depths
and greatness of God's mercies. Sometimes
He will afflict us when it is necessary for
discipline. We must first suffer with Him;
if we would share in His glory!! In all that
God does; He does with intent and with purpose.
If we seek His heart and His will; we will
find purpose even in trials and sufferings!!

And some people start to listen to preachers like andrew wommack etc. and they believe him about that everybody should get healed etc. But I want the biblical basis for healing.

Of course, the healing here - when taken in context - is the healing from sin, from the root of the disease that contaminates all children born in Adam. Many times, preachers relegate healing in the atonement to the mere physical aspect of it, and promptly charge God to heal the afflicted with tangible results, irrespective of the will of God in the matter - after all, it is in the atonement and the unalienable right of all believers. They [i]obligate[/i] God to legally heal upon demand. This is the result of an improper understanding of the New Covenant and a failure to read the Bible carefully.

Now, while I believe that God does heal in the physical under the New Covenant, I do not believe it is by virtue of atonement legality. We see that God healed physically in the OT - He even healed pagans like Naaman who didn't fall under the atonement required by the law given to Moses. You must then wonder if physical healing can even fall under covenental obligation.

If a person today is healed in the physical, it is one thing, but if God heals a person in the spiritual, i.e. nails the fatal disease of "Sin" to the cross - we must attribute this to Christ's atonement. This and this alone is the healing promised under the New Covenant. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the aberrations mentioned in the NT where physical healing clearly did not take place even among God's elite in the faith.

God did not heal Paul of the thorn in his flesh, though Paul could have pled the atonement and required it of God - but Paul had a proper understanding of what exactly he had [i]already been healed from[/i]. Timothy was not instructed by Paul to lay hold of healing for his stomach by virtue of the stripes of Christ, and we also know that Paul left a dear sick missionary brother named Trophimus behind at Miletus.

It must be sovereignly accepted that God is not required to physically and legally heal all who get sick (even those ingrafted into Christ), and when taken in context you can see that the Word of God does not guarantee physical healing in cookie-cutter fashion as part of the grace under the New Covenant. The healing that is guaranteed is the healing of the disease of [b]sin,[/b] which the Blood from Jesus' stripes [i]has already taken down to judgment and eradicated[/i] for those who by faith continue to look to Him.

Thanks people for the reply. Brother Paul, if healing isn't part of the atonement who is it then that God calls Himsels I am the Lord, your Healer in the old testament and how is it then that Jesus healed all people who He met? And He even sends the disciples into the world to do the same. Then what is Gods will in physical healing? It looks like a lot of people are getting healed in the bible. So we believe in healing (also physical) but how do we apply this? How can this be applied? The Lord commands us to lay hands on the sick and they will heal. Sometimes they do, sometimes not...but the Lord says...they will be healed. How our we to walk and move within the boarders of Gods will concerning healing? Is it Gods will always to pray for sick people? Keep on praying for them for healing? What about the gift of healing? Praying for the sick by the elders? etc.

So where is healing part of? Is it a right of our salvation (hebrew/greek < don't know > means soso > deliverance, healing, salvation i thought). Is healing of the body a promise? Is it Gods will to heal? I've got so many questions.

Some background information. People in my church are very busy with this at the moment and they believe everybody should heal and if it doesn't happen they haven't got enough faith because God wants to. This is short said what's the big issue at the moment. But I really want to know what does Gods word say, what would Jesus do (what did He do?), what did the disciples do in His name, what are we today to do in His name? Is it unbelief? Sin? Other things? That stand in the way of psysical healing? etc.

There are a question or 20 in this post, but I truly hope you can lead me in this brothers.

God bless you.

Brother Paul, if healing isn't part of the atonement who is it then that God calls Himsels I am the Lord, your Healer in the old testament and how is it then that Jesus healed all people who He met? And He even sends the disciples into the world to do the same.

My point is that God has no covenantal obligation to heal us physically (that is, we cannot hold Him to it with demand), as much as we can't hold him to doing a miracle on demand. It is the "prayer of faith" that heals, according to James, and not the anointing oil, and not the blood of Jesus. People were healed physically before He shed His blood, but the spiritual sickness of the root of "sin" in the children of Adam was not healed until He uttered, "It is finished" and died.

Okay, I understand that text in his context it has to do with the matter of sin and a lot of people pull this text out of his context. But before that verse it talks about sickness right or not? (verse 4)
But there are also other texts and stories in the bible about healing. Jesus healed, the disciples healed people etc.

When we look at the new testament...Paul and the disciples did exceeding great miracles (also healings), I see them healing the sick as Jesus send them out as His disciples. Also when the Holy Spirit came, I see them moving out, walking past the gate, raising one up, healing people etc. Jesus never denied healing someone etc?

Then what is the doctrine of healing? As a child of God am I supposed to pray for the sick by the laying on of hands? And then believe God that He acts on this faith, He acts on obedience in this matter? I mean there is healing, there are gifts, there is power of the Holy Spirit...so there must be healing. He sends us to heal the sick in His Name...aren't we suppose to give ear to that?

And if it doesn't happen, we continue praying for the sick person? I've seen people who just didn't get healed, but as people kept on praying they got healed and still healed today.

How do you see all of this brother?

PS. And what's the difference between Jesus healing before the cross and the disciples after the cross?

And if it doesn't happen, we continue praying for the sick person? I've seen people who just didn't get healed, but as people kept on praying they got healed and still healed today.

When you come to the painful realization that God is under no covenantal obligation to do a specific miracle for us, whether it be physical healing or some other miracle like raising the dead, you will come to the blessed rest in only seeking God's will in the matter, whatever it is or how dire and impossible the situation may be. You won't have to [i]try and try[/i] to pump up your faith to some undetermined level in order to effectuate a healing in Jesus' Name; and you won't be crestfallen when the person you earnestly pray for never sees the miracle healing you want to see - or even dies (as this happens very often). Brother, when we can learn to pray for miracles in the mindset of [i]not my will, Lord, but Thy will be done[/i], and if what we seek will bring glory to the Name of God and accomplish His will and purpose [b]in the life of that person,[/b] then we will have rest in our spirits notwithstandng the outcome of the prayer. Like the Apostle Paul, it may not be in God's perfect will to remove the thorn right now...or maybe ever. We dont know; only God knows, and so we seek to align our will with God's and pray out of it. Once, I actually heard a Pentecostal preacher tell the congregation to be careful not fall into the "trap" (yes, he said trap) of saying [i]"If it be your will, Lord"[/i] when praying for a miracle healing.

We also seem to forget that God heals through modern medicine and on operating tables. This is the equivalent of Him speaking to us in a soft, still voice rather than by fire or a thunder clasp. Both methods are miracles! It is ironic that the godless and heathen will call a sucessfull surgery a "miracle", yet God's own children will sit down, cross their arms and pout because they were not answered by fire.

Then what is the doctrine of healing?

Hi brother. Maybe there is much to consider just in the way you phrased this ... not you personally but as it is taught or understood in our day. Is it a doctrine at all or something made into a doctrine?

I cannot tell you how appreciative I am for what Paul has stated throughout, coming from where I once was and where you have mentioned that of your own church's slant on all this ... This is one area that can give a great rise to indignation over the abuse of the scriptures. Starting with the stripes of Isaiah that were put to the back of our Saviour, the flesh ripping stripes, the undeserving stripes- somehow made, actually belittled into this said doctrine right on out to all kinds of foolish notions.

It is likely dangerous to say so but I would posit that some of those things the disciples did under the Lords instruction, at that time, in those circumstances may not have been set into granite 'for all time'. At the very least it might be put to our consideration that this is a very distinct possibility. I am thinking of the first, short missionary journey in the one instance amongst others.

That being said I do understand the difficulty that you have and that I would also to some extent. Indeed what are we to do with James praying for the sick and the anointing oil - and even the faith issue? ... The faith matter is probably the first that I would pull down the heaping coals upon some heads for their unspeakable abuse, this idea that it is [i]your fault[/i] and [i]your failure[/i] that someone did not get 'healed'.

It is the [i]manner[/i] of how this is put that it guilts people, manipulates them - contorts and in far too many cases actually sells indulgences of a long ago similarity in return - That is cold hard cash to the charlatans in exchange for their supposed giftings and your or your loved ones deliverance. The Lord had some very strong words about stumbling and milestones that are applicable.

Faith that He is able or faith He [i]will[/i] seems to be the condition. You can believe till your eyes pop out, you can have the faith of a mustard seed I recall - Is this the precondition, the arm twisting as it were that brings forth the results? Faith and unbelief are very important matters and maybe someone else could take this up and elaborate further.

What I did want to offer was some alternate perspective. One is just to peel back the recent years ideas and look to the old path wanderers that we are fond of. Something I have been chewing on for a few days and attached to;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14907&post_id=194887&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=193276&forum=45#194887]Death awaits[/url]

From Richard Baxter, an excerpt;

[i]Misunderstand not sickness, as if it were a greater evil than it is; but observe how great a mercy it is, that death has so suitable a harbinger or forerunner: that God should do so much before he takes us hence, to wean us from the world, and make us willing to be gone; that the unwilling flesh has the help of pain; and that the senses and appetite languish and decay, which did draw the mind to earthly things: and that we have so loud a call, and so great a help to true repentance and serious preparation! I know to those that have walked very close with God, and are always ready, a sudden death may be a mercy; as we have lately known divers holy ministers and others, that have died either after a sacrament, or in the evening of the Lord's day, or in the midst of some holy exercise, with so little pain, that none about them perceived when they died. But ordinarily it is a mercy to have the flesh brought down and weakened by painful sickness, to help to conquer our natural unwillingness to die.[/i]

All this is just a piece of consideration. Hebrews speaks of 'others' not being delivered and while that may not be 'healing' precisely it does show forth what Paul is stating - Whose will is it and what will is ours to be seeking.

For my own sake and from my own observation I keep in the back of my mind reading scripture the thought of incident or precedent, principle or character - What I want to say is this age seems very bent on premise based applications. Whole ministries based on narrow understandings of select sections; Prophecy. Healing. End times. Prosperity. Right on out to whole denominational prospects built out of and around their own exegeted or esiegeted passages, they start with a premise and force everything to fit into it. It is the wrong way around the whole council of God's word.

Suffering comes into play just as well - what is taking up a cross but an instrument of suffering and death? Something we are to do daily.

Not physical we might say but what was the end of the disciples? Somehow this all gets lost in the 'doctrine' of healing as does sickness and death, that sequence which most of us will inevitably meet as these tents breakdown and we draw closer to the blessed end of this temporal dwelling.

[i]And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.[/i] Luk 4:23

[i]Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.[/i] Mar 15:30,31

I thought I would add this very short video excerpt by Zac Poonen into the discussion. In it, he talks about the unhealthy affection and the wide-scale falling away of the church over physical healing, prosperity, and miracles at the expense of the real healing and deliverance from personal sin. He packs some great truths and sobriety into a mere 3:47, and even explains the means by which God gave him light on these truths. Take a few minutes to view it; you'll gain much.

[url=http://video.aol.com/video-detail/being-protected-from-deception-by-zac-poonen-clip-2/4197896830?icid=acvsv1]Zac Poonen 3 Minute Video[/url]

Dear brothers, thanks for your explanation and wisdom in these things.
I understand that nowadays a lot of people are following health/wealth preachers etc. and that a lot of deception is going on. But when it comes to my own life, when it comes to looking at healing from scripture, acting on Gods word then what is Gods truth in that?

For example…a while ago someone had really pain in his left wrist for a few months. Immediately I said, let’s pray for this that God would touch it and take the pain away. So we prayed together and the day after he send me a message and said, the pain is gone…hallelujah!

Now I think…when I see someone who is sick, or has pain… I just pray for them in Jesus Name and believe them to get healed because I believe God will hear my prayer and will work through that prayer and the laying on of hands.
Sometimes He heals, sometimes he doesn’t. But when He doesn’t we pray again. And we search His will concerning healing and the person. Is that biblical? Is that Gods will concerning healing? That we pray if there are sick among us. Because this is how I stand in all of this.
I believe God can heal, I believe His Spirit lives within me and I believe when we lay hands on the sick they do get healed. And sometimes not but I don’t know how that comes. But never I see it’s Gods will not to heal. I understand there are cases that people won’t get healed because of His higher will, are old or God calls them home, God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?) etc. but maybe there is more possible then we believe or pray nowadays? (without any pressure)
I’m not talking about charlatans etc. at the moment, but I’m talking about how we apply praying for sick people in our own life. I understand that the main focus is live or die I am Christ and my days are in His hands. But I also do believe God wants us to pray in our needs and we can receive from Him.
Correct me if I’m wrong in all of this.

So the give a summary…
- when someone is sick…
- they go to the elders and get prayed for
- when no elders in the neighborhood they get prayed for by a child of God
- the Christian prays in Jesus Name with laying on of hands for healing
- God will hear this prayer (healing / no healing / continue to pray for healing / pray for other things as the time goes by and He reveals His will).

Is this biblical / a godly view on this matter?

PS Sorry for my English sometimes (dutch people )

Brothers Paul & Mike,

I mostly agree and appreciate very much your posts but there is something still left unanswered by what Dirk W I believe is trying to say. I very much disagree with the WOF doctrines that have brought damage to many in the body of Christ. I believe the foundation of true Christianity is grounded in the altar, the blood, and the cross of Jesus Christ. I also have seen many over the years die with cancer, at the hand of doctors.

I believe that everything that we receive from God is in the atonement of Christ on the ground of the blood He shed for our redemption. Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ. It is clear from the bible that sin is the cause of sickness being in the world. I will mention a few scriptures below showing that the atonement that Christ made for us is the only remedy for our sins and sickness.

Exodus 15:26 (KJV) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Isaiah 53:4-6 (KJV) 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Matthew 8:17 (KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Furthermore I would like to add what Jesus said about following Him.

Matthew 16:24-25 (KJV) 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

The scripture tells us in many places that Jesus is to be our Lord in order for Him to be our savior. When we surrender our life to the lord Jesus we become His property and we have been bought with a price and we are not our own. He is our savior and our healer. We suffer with Him and we reign with him. We are not to be unwise but knowing what the will of the Lord is for us. He teaches us to follow Him through the trials of Life. We are to believe and trust Him for our salvation. He becomes to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Whenever a situation or need arises we are to seek Him with faith, fully trusting in Him for the outcome. I have not found a scripture in the bible that refers us to go and seek the best health insurance and the best doctors to keep us well. He says that He is the one who saves us and heals us and that He will supply all of our needs according to His riches in glory. He is a jealous God over his people and his people are jealous for His glory. There are a few people who had rather die than live in unbelief. When we are sick we should seek God and be more concerned for holiness in our life and believe that God will cleanse us from sin and produce character in us but will still heal us for his glory. If we being evil can give good things to our children, then how much more will our heavenly Father give good things to His children who ask him in faith and obedience fully trusting in Him?

2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2Ch 16:13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

The question is have we come to the place where we had rather die in the hands of the Lord than in the hands of the doctors. Jesus is the only physician I really trust in. Don’t get alarmed I am not talking about those who are lost and don’t know Jesus. I am also not talking about those born with a problem already requiring medical attention. I am just wondering today where are the people who have been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost experiencing his power and holiness and truly believe that he is now the only healer and physician they will ever need.

We in America spend billions of dollars on the medical profession and more people are getting sick and dying in the hands of doctor’s everyday. People are so afraid if they have the slightest problem they feel they must go through all kinds of expensive tests to see what is wrong with them. Many Christians are not denying themselves anymore and trusting God, they trust the best tests and doctors and it is costing them dearly.

We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician. I understand doctors have a place, but when our faith in God is so vital to our walk with the Lord and the bible mentions that if we doubt in God we will not receive anything from the Lord. The only place where it specifically instructs the sick among them is to call for the elders to pray over them in the name of the Lord and it says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the lord shall raise them up, and if they have committed sins it shall be forgiven him. We know this is in James 5:13.

What I have gathered from this is that when a believer is having a problem then he is to seek the Lord in obedience and God can bring him through according to his faith and obedience. The prayer of faith back then was strong faith that the elders had achieved from Christ through the power of the Spirit that is largely missing today because of unbelief, that the sick person could be healed when they hadn’t been totally obedient in their faith walk with God because it says that if they have committed any sins they would be forgiven. The problem today is that the church needs to return to the beginning. In most churches today the prayer of faith is not in them and many Christians are not walking in obedient faith to be healed from sickness and therefore we don’t see that many healings.

How can we believe that people are actually going to hell because they have not obedient faith in the Lord Jesus for their salvation from sin, but yet we don’t believe that people are really not getting healed because of their lack of obedient faith in the Lord Jesus? The bible says that Jesus healed all that came to him. The bible says that Jesus was willing to heal all but because of unbelief He was not able to do many miracles in his own home town. The bible says that Jesus marveled at great faith and that he also marveled at the unbelief in his home town. Jesus was always reproving his disciples for their lack of faith in Him. He is still reproving us today of our lack of faith in him!

Blessings to all!

Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ.

I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God [i]must[/i] heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do [i]any[/i] miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the [i]gifts of the Spirit[/i], grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.

If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin, because you are right - the Bible teaches that sin is the cause of sickness - and this is true, but as entering through the transgression of Adam in a general sense...but it is not necessarily with each and every individual case, as scripture shows us. The disciples questioned the Lord on one occasion: "Master, who sinned, - the mother or father - that this man is sick like this?" Jesus answered: "[i]No one sinned.[/i] But this man was born like this so the works of God would be manifest." In other cases, the Word teaches that Satan can afflict a person - see Luke 13:11 for an example.

Brother, if you like, we could do a detailed study on the blood, it's proper value and uses and estimation in the eyes of God accoring to each example where the blood of Christ is mentioned. We would need to make a new thread, of course. I would be willing to walk through it with you.

Brother Paul

We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician.

Now, just to open a challenge, I submit to you that Jesus presented the medical use of oil and bandages and wine in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Paul prescribed a little wine for Timothy's stomach, and the Lord did not say that it was wrong for the woman with the issue of blood to have gone to the physicians. It would have been a great time to once and for all time clear up any future debates, as he knew it would one day pose. Instead, He focused on her [i]faith.[/i]

Just a few thoughts I'm tossing your way. I've got my glove on - you can toss the ball back when you're ready. Just be gentle. You throw back hard enough and it stings...even with the glove on.

Brother Paul

God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?)

Ah, but see how humble I am because of my sickness and pains!

If this were true then let us pray all the more to get sick. The sicker we get the more we are learning, yes? This is the same misunderstanding as what Paul warned against, Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

Or, like Paul's "thorn in the flesh", I would have to ask, Paul said he received this messenger (angel) from satan for "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations." What abundance of revelations have you that you should share in this trouble? In this respect I have serious doubts that Paul was physically ill by this "thorn".

There is a great deal to say concerning healing and forgiveness of sins. As far as I have seen and read in Scriptures healing of the body would be like a "shadow/type" of healing of the soul and spirit.

Matthew 6
5. "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, and walk'?
6. "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life. And though we know that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men and that He freely forgives and pardons and redeems, not everyone shall be saved. This is because not everyone will come to Him even though He calls us all unto repentance.

Now, while I believe that God is the Healer and Physician and I personally put no trust in doctors, etc., there still is something to say for simple remedies and caring after the sick.

In terms of the Good Samaritan, I would have to question whether the Samaritan would be considered part of the Jewish convenant. Though he indeed set a fine example of Christian compassion; doing the best we can with our human abilities. All the same, we need not neglect or diminish the compassion and desire of God to heal.

In terms of a little wine for Timothy's stomach, I would have to question why Timothy was having some stomach problem. My first guess would be stress rather than some sickness of sin. For stress is caused by great and considerable care for the circumstances (which could be sinful reasons). But the circumstances and cares of Timothy would have to have done with the church and lost souls, etc., especially considering the persecution from the Jews and Gentiles. A little wine helps settle the nerves and helps relax, besides health/nutrition benefits.

Mind you these answers are very brief and by no means complete. Just a little something to help the discussion.

I would interpret this from scripture simply by looking at Jesus. He healed ALL who came to him in faith. Most people who pray for healing have enough faith to get healed, but they have been taught error by the church, and that causes them to doubt. But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal. Jesus never had to stop and pray to find out if someone who came to him for healing should be healed or not.

Brother Paul wrote

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I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God must heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do any miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the gifts of the Spirit, grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.
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The blood is for God to be able to forgive us in accepting the sacrifice of Christ for our sins in the shedding of blood on the cross. The blood deals with our sins committed but the cross is God’s way of dealing with the sin nature by crucifying Jesus as the last Adam and the representative of the human race.

The bible says in Romans chapter 5 that we are justified by faith and also by the blood. I agree with you that pleading the blood does not obligate God to heal us and neither does speaking the name of Jesus obligate God to do anything either. God shows mercy and compassion on whomever he chooses to, because without true faith that God accepts we can receive nothing. I believe God is compassionate toward our weaknesses. The apostle Paul said that when he was weak then he was strong because Christ made him strong in his weakness because he was no longer depending on himself but Christ. I don’t like what the faith movement has done in saying that all you got to do is speak it until it happens or claim it and you got it. Faith cometh by hearing and not by speaking. It is a fallacy to think that we can say the right words and it will happen.

I don’t believe a person has to say the name of Jesus all the time but He must know He is there in His Name. I don’t believe a person has to say I plead the blood because the bible does not say that he has to say this even though God can honor a true heart of faith in a person saying it. The bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. We must believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.

I believe though we must understand the blood covenant. We must understand that if the blood is not applied then there is no forgiveness of sins. We must understand that the Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean vessel that has not been cleansed by the blood. The Holy Ghost will not go where the blood has not gone and will not continually dwell in a person who has not received the revelation of the cross in him being crucified with Christ.

Paul wrote
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If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin,
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The bible says our sins have separated us from God where He will not hear us. We have no righteousness of our own, the only righteousness we can have is through Christ and His shed blood for us. I see no where that God will answer us according to our righteousness but only on the ground of Christ blood righteousness. The bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood. The life of God comes to us by the blood of Christ. This is what I mean when I say the blood of Christ makes it possible for God to bless us. The cross would do us no good if Christ had not shed his blood on it and died. Our faith would do us no good without redemption through the forgiveness of sins because of the blood sacrifice of Christ. Christ is all and in all by his life being given to us through his sacrifice in the shedding of blood on the cross.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The Normal Christian life by Watchman Knee has been a great blessing to me. He says it so well about the blood being primarily for God to see and what the value of the blood means to God. It is impossible for us to truly value the blood because we don’t understand it the way God does. We must know that God truly values the blood of His Son. I greatly fear God and am very careful that I don’t demean the value of the Blood of his Son but greatly appreciate its value to God for us.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We can not make God or hold God to anything but we must value what he values. I never use the blood to try and make God do something I have only come to understand that I have no righteousness of my own but only His righteousness do I cling to. I have heard some say don’t say “I plead the Blood” but say “I claim the blood” but I am careful how I approach God and I don’t demand my rights because I don’t have any because I am a wretched sinner needing to be cleansed by His blood. I know that God does not have to hear me but I know he always heard Jesus. He said this is my beloved Son and I am well pleased with Him. He never has nor ever will say this about anyone else outside of Christ. I will let the blood of Jesus speak for me and I believe that if God will do anything for me it will be because His Son is the answer to everything.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There are many places I do believe where the blood of Christ and the death of Christ are synonymous meaning Christ dying is meaning He shed his blood for us and Christ shedding His blood meaning in dying for us. The blood carries the life.

Brother Paul I appreciate your writings very much and I don’t know how much time I would have to give to it but I would be very interested in a study on the blood. I say this with humility but honestly also, that I would love for you to start the thread because I recognized the gift in writing that you have and I need more learning in how to express what I am trying to say in my writings. But I am at peace my brother and really do want to learn. I feel that we would be on Holy Ground because there is so much more to God’s holiness that we could enter into because of the blood of His Son.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Blessings to all!

But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal.

I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as .... ([i]it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life[/i].)

I know this is a commonly accepted idea, but is it true scripturally? If we just take a look at what it means to say this and measure it against the results, it raises some pretty big issues.

By big issues do you mean the implications for the weakness of the church?

To put it plainly, we know that Christ's sacrifice was not a limited atonement. Just as God, who is Love, does not love partially.

In my mind, it would appear that God is withholding a great deal for the purposes of judgment and the end of the Last Days. Perhaps I may be wrong, either way, I do not believe that the church shall remain as it is. I believe there shall again be a "revival" as like the "church of Acts". The difference being, I do not conceive a final great "ingathering" but much more a great "falling away".

I would say it will be more like the great plagues of Egypt. God will once again shew great wonders but instead of repenting the people will harden their hearts against God and despise His servants.

Anyways, I am more of less speculating. I don't like to get into a lot of prophecy concerning the End Times for the simple fact that much of it is still hidden. And this bothers me because we have so many books and teachers who talk about it like they have it all figured out.

But on a more practical example. I have been to several different "prayer meetings" throughout the valley here in Las Vegas and I can say honestly that on the majority these people do not pray. Though they certainly think they do. We need to ask the hard questions. These people can pray 20 years for the same petition of healing, or whatever, and nothing come of it. So if we want to talk about the prayer of faith, then very simply, if God hears us then we have what we have asked of Him. Are we getting what we ask of Him? Why not?

I answer with Keith Green, God "wants hearts of fire, not your prayers of ice."

You have to ask what was Paul's affliction. He wrote it was a messenger of Satan to buffet him. The Greek for messenger is translated "angel".

Secondly, don't forget why he got the "thorn in the flesh" : And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So unless you have some great revelation from God himself, you probably don't fit into that category.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I dont have time to read this entire thread, so someone else may have already said this... but...

If all are to be healed, then why was Paul not healed after he asked the Lord to heal Him 3 times?

And what of death? Everyone dies of something. If not an accident, then of some sort of health failure. Do we just run out of 9 lives? No... we all die from health related problems unless we die in some accident.

Common sense tells you that God does plan to heal everyone who comes to Him in faith. To most of us He says what He said to Paul... "my grace is sufficient for you".

Krispy