Hi sister. Listened again to this one yesterday and like you, had never heard of Charles Simeon before but have found my own disposition so intertwined with so many of the same aspects ...
Recognized that John Piper has his prepared sermons as it were and these are those that are printed out, rather than transcribed - That he preaches from them and embellishes and leaves off in other places.
The self-abasement aspect has me throttled in that it speaks towards what I have felt for a long time and mangled in attempts to articulate - For instance; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21404&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Am I a wretched man ... still?[/url]. My conviction and contention is that the answer is yes, that Paul is making an [b]assessment[/b] of his condition and not an eradication as some teach or would have it to mean. Charles Simeon I believe makes this so clear, better than I have ever heard it but also because it runs right along experience;
(John Piper speaking)
Handley Moule captures the essence of Simeon's secret of longevity in this sentence: "'Before honor is humility,' and he had been 'growing downwards' year by year under the stern discipline of difficulty met in the right way, the way of close and adoring communion with God" (Moule, 64). Those two things were the heartbeat of Simeon's inner life: growing downward in humility and growing upward in adoring communion with God.
But the remarkable thing about humiliation and adoration in the heart of Charles Simeon is that they were inseparable. Simeon was utterly unlike most of us today who think that we should get rid once and for all of feelings of vileness and unworthiness as soon as we can. For him, adoration only grew in the freshly plowed soil of humiliation for sin. So he actually labored to know his true sinfulness and his remaining corruption as a Christian.
[i]I have continually had such a sense of my sinfulness as would sink me into utter despair, if I had not an assured view of the sufficiency and willingness of Christ to save me to the uttermost. And at the same time I had such a sense of my acceptance through Christ as would overset my little bark, if I had not ballast at the bottom sufficient to sink a vessel of no ordinary size. (Moule 134f.)[/i]
He never lost sight of the need for the heavy ballast of his own humiliation. After he had been a Christian forty years he wrote,
[i]With this sweet hope of ultimate acceptance with God, I have always enjoyed much cheerfulness before men; but I have at the same time laboured incessantly to cultivate the deepest humiliation before God. I have never thought that the circumstance of God's having forgiven me was any reason why I should forgive myself; on the contrary, I have always judged it better to loathe myself the more, in proportion as I was assured that God was pacified towards me (Ezekiel 16:63). . . . There are but two objects that I have ever desired for these forty years to behold; the one is my own vileness; and the other is, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ: and I have always thought that they should be viewed together; just as Aaron confessed all the sins of all Israel whilst he put them on the head of the scapegoat. The disease did not keep him from applying to the remedy, nor did the remedy keep him from feeling the disease. By this I seek to be, not only humbled and thankful, but humbled in thankfulness, before my God and Saviour continually. (Carus, 518f.)[/i]
If Simeon is right, vast portions of contemporary Christianity are wrong. And I can't help wondering whether one of the reasons we are emotionally capsized so easily today - so vulnerable to winds of criticism or opposition - is that in the name of forgiveness and grace, we have thrown the ballast overboard.
Simeon's boat drew a lot of water. But it was steady and on course and the mastheads were higher and the sails bigger and more full of the Spirit than most people's today who talk continuously about self-esteem.
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At the end of the message John opens up for a Q&A and elaborates on the differences or balance I guess of self loathing\\debasement vs. self esteem - The other verses of "forgetting those things that are behind" countering with "[i]Remember[/i] ... from where you have fallen, where you came, what you 'were'. I believe he termed it 'forgetting and remembering'. Will leave that be, more on this;
(John Piper again speaking)
Moule comments that these two experiences are not the alternating excesses of an ill-balanced mind. Rather they are "the two poles of a sphere of profound experience" (Moule, 135). For Simeon, adoration of God grew best in the plowed soil of his own contrition.
Simeon had no fear of turning up every sin in his life and looking upon with great grief and hatred, because he had such a vision of Christ's sufficiency that this would always result in deeper cleansing and adoration.
[i]Humiliation and adoration were inseparable. He wrote to Mary Elliott, the sister of the writer of the hymn "Just as I Am,"
I would have the whole of my experience one continued sense - first, of my nothingness, and dependence on God; second, of my guiltiness and desert before Him; third, of my obligations to redeeming love, as utterly overwhelming me with its incomprehensible extent and grandeur. Now I do not see why any one of these should swallow up another. (Moule, 160f.)[/i]
As an old man he said, [i]"I have had deep and abundant cause for humiliation, [but] I have never ceased to wash in that fountain that was opened for sin and uncleanness, or to cast myself upon the tender mercy of my reconciled God" (Carus, 518f).[/i]
He was convinced that Biblical doctrines [i]"at once most abase and most gladden the soul"[/i] (Moule, 67). He spoke once to the Duchess de Broglie when he made a visit to the continent. He comments later [i]"[I] opened to her my views of the Scripture system . . . and showed her that brokenness of heart is the key to the whole" (Moule, 96).[/i]
He actually fled for refuge to the place which we today try so hard to escape.
[i]Repentance is in every view so desirable, so necessary, so suited to honor God, that I seek that above all. The tender heart, the broken and contrite spirit, are to me far above all the joys that I could ever hope for in this vale of tears. I long to be in my proper place, my hand on my mouth, and my mouth in the dust. . . . I feel this to be safe ground. Here I cannot err. . . . I am sure that whatever God may despise . . . He will not despise the broken and contrite heart. (Moule, 133f)[/i]
When he was old and could look on much success, he wrote to a friend on the fiftieth anniversary of his work, [i]"But I love the valley of humiliation. I there feel that I am in my proper place" (Moule, 159f).[/i]
In the last months of his life he wrote, [i]"In truth, I love to see the creature annihilated in the apprehension, and swallowed up in God; I am then safe, happy, triumphant" (Moule, 162).[/i]
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Here John empehsizes [i]safe![/i] And I couldn't agree more. He goes on;
Why? Why is this evangelical humiliation a place of happiness for Simeon? Listen to the benefits he sees in this kind of experience:
[i]By constantly meditating on the goodness of God and on our great deliverance from that punishment which our sins have deserved, we are brought to feel our vileness and utter unworthiness; and while we continue in this spirit of self-degradation, everything else will go on easily. We shall find ourselves advancing in our course; we shall feel the presence of God; we shall experience His love; we shall live in the enjoyment of His favour and in the hope of His glory. . . . You often feel that your prayers scarcely reach the ceiling; but, oh, get into this humble spirit by considering how good the Lord is, and how evil you all are, and then prayer will mount on wings of faith to heaven. The sigh, the groan of a broken heart, will soon go through the ceiling up to heaven, aye, into the very bosom of God. (Moule, 137f)[/i]
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Apologize for the length. Found myself this morning happening upon the section in Ephesians with the above mentioned thoughts still reverberating, the "old man" expression contrasting with what is often taught- the correlations to the [b]wretched man that I am[/b] (not, '[i]was[/i]') - All these things ...
[i]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;[/i] Eph 4:22
You got to love those moments when a passage you have read hundreds of times triggers something else - What does he mean by [i]former conversation[/i]? I know the tense and love these 'old' words, recognizing how often the variations or emphasis changes. Our day would think of conversation as;
4. Familiar discourse; general intercourse of sentiments; chat; unrestrained talk; opposed to a formal conference.
What I mentioned in conversation was not a new thought.
[This is now the most general use of the word.]
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But to get the gist of the meaning as Paul expresses it we would have to go back to the broader definitions;
[b]Conversation
CONVERSATION, n.[/b]
1. General course of manners; behavior; deportment; especially as it respects morals.
Let your conversation be as becometh the gospel. Phil 1.
Be ye holy in all manner of conversation. 1 Pet 1.
2. A keeping company; familiar intercourse; intimate fellowship or association; commerce in social life. Knowledge of men and manners is best acquired by conversation with the best company.
3. Intimate and familiar acquaintance; as a conversation with books, or other object.
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Still, it is only partial so I turn to some commentary, John Gill;
[b]Eph 4:22 - That ye put off concerning the former conversation, the old man,....[/b] Which is the corruption of nature; why this is called a man, and an old man; see Gill on Rom_6:6, the putting him off, is not a removing him from the saints, nor a destroying him in them, nor a changing his nature; for he remains, and remains alive, and is the same old man he ever was, in regenerate persons; but it is a putting him off from his seat, and a putting him down from his government; a showing no regard to his rule and dominion, to his laws and lusts, making no provision for his support; and particularly, not squaring the life and conversation according to his dictates and directions; and therefore it is called a putting him off, concerning the former conversation: the change lies not, in the old man, who can never be altered, but in the conversation; he is not in the same power, but he retains the same sinful nature; he is put off, but he is not put out; and though he does not reign, he rages, and often threatens to get the ascendant: these words stand either in connection with Eph_4:17 and so are a continuation and an explanation of that exhortation; or else they point out what regenerate souls are taught by Christ to do, to quit the former conversation, to hate the garment spotted with the flesh, and to put it off; for the allusion is to the putting off of filthy garments, as the works of the flesh may be truly called, which flow from the vitiosity of nature, the old man:
[b]which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;[/b] the old man, or the vitiosity of nature, has its lusts; and these are deceitful; they promise pleasure and profit, but yield neither in the issue; they promise liberty, and bring into bondage; they promise secrecy and impunity, but expose to shame, and render liable to punishment; they sometimes put on a religious face, and so deceive, and fill men with pride and conceit, who think themselves to be something, when they are nothing: and through these the old man is corrupt; by these the corruption of nature is discovered; and the corruption that is in the world is produced hereby; and these make a man deserving of, and liable to the pit of corruption; and this is a good reason, why this corrupt old man, with respect to the life and conversation, should be put off.
John Gill
... [i]and is the same old man he ever was, in regenerate persons; but it is a putting him off from his seat, and a putting him down from his government;[/i] ...
It is difficult to excerpt this!
...[i]the change lies not, in the old man, who can never be altered, but in the conversation; he is not in the same power, but he retains the same sinful nature; he is put off, but he is not put out; and though he does not reign, he rages, and often threatens to get the ascendant:[/i]
And suddenly that other verse comes to mind;
[i]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i] 1Jn 1:10
And it all makes perfect sense. It is not an eradication program after all; [i]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/i] Rom 7:25 And the abrupt ed\\unfortunate chapter division that speaks; [i]There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/i] Doesn't mean that we cannot like Charles Simeon either 'forget' in totality or even of a necessity not condemn ourselves continually. Self abasement over self esteem!
:-)
It's a paradox perhaps, you don't have to grovel as an unworthy servant, only doing that which is required of you, you are one! It's a peculiar ... freedom. Paul was right, Simeon was right, Gill was right and I will go so far as to say that I am right, because I am at the core so very, very [i]wrong[/i].
But ... [i] thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord[/i] ...
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1460_Brothers_We_Must_Not_Mind_a_Little_Suffering/]Brothers, We Must Not Mind a Little Suffering[/url]
