Re: Losing our salvation or not

This is a huge topic, and I don't know if anyone can be sure they have a complete knowledge of the truth of this. A person could be convinced that it is possible or impossible to lose your own salvation but as they mature in understanding and experience of God over time their view could change.
It is our duty I think to study the bible to see what it says on this topic, from what I have read on this 'thread' a lot seems to hang on the interpretation of certain verses and passages, the bible does need to be taken as a whole and verses must be read in context or we have distortion of the truth that was intended for us.

Maybe that's why the bible teaching on this subject is somewhat fragmented - so that we could with the help of the HolySpirit come to our own conclusions as we study His word and try to live it out. Yes even living before God in fear and trembling and adoration and worship.

A housemate of mine was wondering about this and she hasn't come to a conclusion, and I havent either, somehow I think both are true - we are eternally secure, our salvation doesnt depend on us, we were regenerated by God if you study 'regeneration' you will see that our own response in conversion was due to God's sovereign work. I suppose you could argue that if God intended us to be saved by His own irresistible work then He is sure to keep us in the faith and has every intention of doing so - and who can resist his will.
Romans 9 addresses God's sovereign purpose in electing some and not electing others for eternal salvation. Sobering but true.
At the same time the bible is full of encouragement, instruction to be holy and dire warnings. It isn't a salvation of works and yet we are required 'to work out our salvation with fear and trembling' there is one work if it can be called a 'work' the work of faith which is in turn inspired by God, yet we are required to continue therein.

People can use the 'once saved always saved' slogan as an excuse to live however they please, and that I believe is a dangerous way to live, but we are called to live in order to please God, if you are truly regenerated then you will desire to live a life pleasing to God and when you sin which you will - you will likely feel terrible and run back to your saviour in full repentance - that is how true believers really feel...

Amen, i agree with you. This is a big topic, but you hit on the head, that God regenerates us and the bible promises that he will the finish the work in us. For an example my pastor fred aten. He flew airplanes in world war 2 and him and eleven others in florida ended up crashing the plane. 10 died, one was paralyzed and my pastor before they hit he told God that if he saved him from this that we would do anything God wanted him to do. He came out with only scratches. For 18 years he did nothing with the Lord, but the Lord remembered that day that he promised and he called him and finally saved him 18 years later. My pastor then went to school at clearcreek bible college in kentucky and then he got a degree. He has been a minister for 40 years now in a church in willow springs illinois. He is 90 years old and this man is moving like he is 60 or 65. The Lord finished what he wanted in this man from the beginning.

Great story when God moves He moves and if he has sovereignly elected someone then I think they are sure to be saved.
The question is - is a person elect or do they just appear to be saved?

"Romans 9 addresses God's sovereign purpose in electing some and not electing others for eternal salvation. Sobering but true."

Hi Dan, this is something that I admit has haunted me for many years. I don't personaly beleive this to be true as stated here since it is double predestination. I don't write here to argue verses on this I have read them all and heard them all argued to many times. I just want to ask someone who believes this and try to understand something - If God saves some irregardless of the persons responce to Gods love offered or any personal choice to submit to Christ, and damns others who cannot but choose otherwise, how can a person truely love such a God? You can choose to by an act of the will, but can you really trust a God who creates a life - billions of them for that matter - merely for the purpose of His good pleasure to send to eternal torment for something they could not but do by nature? Even if you, or I were or are the elect on these terms - there may be some gratitude that we are plucked out - but knowing that others were passed by - without hope before being born and created for the slaughter - how does one reconcile that in our makeup or inborn sense of justice? I know we are fallen - but we still learn basic principles in the Word of God of right and wrong, sowing and reaping, mercy forgiveness and grace. We do have a conscience that is a means given by God to warn us. We have that "feeling" if you will when we hear of a rape or murder, or of a child molester - that gives rise within us a disgust and desire for punishment and justice. How do you turn that "off" when it is applied to God under this topic in this context? Can anyone really do that - if you think this all the way through to it's basic concept? How does one find any comfort or deep abiding love or real trust without such thoughts haunting the soul? I am not asking to debate scripture here or go over any doctrine. I am asking only on a human level this is a real issue for me. I have struggled with this on and off for many years - I can go for months and not think about it, then I read a statement like this or others like it and it hits a nerve and the feelings come and it disturbs me for days. Many times I must go back and read something like David's Servants articals on this topic, or one of many others to bring me back to what I hold to be true in proper context - kind of like a slap that wakes me up and sets me back on my feet. Again, this is to not to start an arguement, this is an honest question I have. Even when I say to myself when I get into these moods about this topic, "Lord - I will love you and serve you even if this is true" - and I would - and I do - but it is by choice and will during this state, and has no real emotion heart and soul to it while I go through these periods. It is mechanical only untill I get past the depression of it all. Please take this as an honest question and not devisive coment - I am really tring to understand his from another perspective. I honestly think I will drift in and out of this untill the day I die. As I said, although I do not think this is an accurate portrayal of God's character and dealings with man, somehow the torment I went through over the years so many times in my mind over these doctrines it always seems to come back now and then. I never get as low as I once did over this but it does catch me off guard and get me.
I kind of look at this perticular theology (I am trying not to put a name to it) like an explanation by Job's freinds when Job needed answers - the freinds meant to help, there answers even had scriptual support and they made sense to listen to, but in the end the Lord said they had it all wrong! I think we will all face that truth some day about some of the things we beleive - self included.
God bless, posted in love, Bob

refrigbob wrote:

If God saves some irregardless of the persons responce to Gods love offered or any personal choice to submit to Christ, and damns others who cannot but choose otherwise, how can a person truely love such a God?

Brother, I know there are some who believe that "God predestines people for damnation", but simply stated, that is not true.

Don't loose sleep over this heresy. Loose sleep over the people that we are praying about...that they may accept the free gift of the Lord offered to all people from the cross.

Brother Miccah, I hope I made it clear that I do not beleive this, yet for some reason this doctrine and its implications somehow got itself in me a long time ago - it just is a dart that seems to stick me at times - not sure how else to explain it any better. I have been saved almost 30 years and I do serve the Lord with all my heart. We go into the streets on weekends witnessing and praying for the lost - I understand what you are saying about what to loose sleep over. I try to avoid this subject these days for the most part. I was not trying to debate the issue or doctrine itself although that is difficult, more just trying to understand how someone could beleive it and have any peace or comfort in it - I may have not gotten that across very well. I have argued with others and posted over it in the past - I was not trying to do this here. I am just perplexed on how others can harmonize within them selves this doctrine with our sense of right, justice, and knowledge of the total of scriptural portrayal of God and His dealings with man - I can't even if I try - maybe I think to much!
God bless, Bob

Brother Bob I believe I understand what you are saying.

I think it is the immaturity of Christians in their understanding of Romans Chapter 9. I don’t think they realized the implications of what they are really stating. It is clear that God shows mercy on whom he wills to show mercy. We should desire mercy and not only for ourselves but also for others. The fact they can not explain is the reason God shows mercy to some and not to others. The reason he also elects some and not others and it is not as some would imply that he just chooses not to save them or love them.

God loves all His creation because God is Love. I repeat the bible says that God is Love. God has made it clear to us that there had to be the sacrifice of His Son in order to appease the wrath of God against us because of our sin. We can not save ourselves; the Son had to be sacrificed for us. We could not keep the law or be righteous enough to be saved from sin. God had to give His only begotten Son for us that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. Faith and repentance is essential to regeneration.

Many are missing the boat on this one because no where in the scriptures does God ever imply that He wants any to perish but all to come to repentance. God can not save anyone one apart from faith in Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith and that this is not of ourselves but it is the gift of God. The bible says that God wants to give this gift of salvation to everyone if they would only believe in His Son.

When some people read what I have just wrote which is the bible truth they are so quick to jump to their God side so to speak and say that I am claiming that man has something to do with it and therefore I am not giving God all the Glory. What they fail to see is that I am only stating what the bible says that we are to believe in Jesus Christ. It is all from God because God has stated to us how He will save us and it is not of ourselves but of the Lord. Only God knows who the elect really are and we can never really know this because we are not God. When we see the evidence of the Holy Ghost in a person then we can say they are the elect but until we see the evidence in manifestation then we really can’t say. We are never to think that some can’t be the elect because that would be going against the Word of God and His Love for all mankind and His willingness to save all mankind. The problem many people have is in their head, because they are trying to shrink God’s foreknowledge down to size of their little brain.

Brother and sisters who love God don’t never let the devil tell you that someone might not be one of God’s elect from the beginning. God is the beginning and the end. When you see a person who is lost then pray for them and point them to the one who is more than willing to save them if only they will believe. God is the only one with infinite knowledge and He expects us to want everybody to be saved.

Blessings to all!

Thanks for the responce Bro Banks. I wonder how many souls have been damaged, or went through life uncertain of Gods love, tormented by thoughts that God would "pass by" multitudes even if they knew they were themselves were saved. Or I wonder how many are really saved, yet can never seem to get over that they may not be the elect? I can't help but ask this because - well -I already explained what I go through even though deep in my heart this is and must be false. (It seems I hear at times something like the well known tactic - "hath God really said? and begin to question what I know to be true - a weak link in me as I tryed to get across already) - I also often wonder, why so many sincere wonderful gifted men, many preachers over the last several hundered years latched on to this and preached it - many I am convinced desired the truth. Yet the same can be said to those who oppose the doctrine - many good teachers and preachers take the opposing view.(I have asked the Lord about this - why so many beleive this if it false - another words, can numbers be an indication or do numbers mean one should go with the majority? - then I beleive I heard millions of sincere people believe in the pope and catholic doctrines - does that mean they are right because of sincerity or numbers?) It seems to me to be such a stark contrast in who God is - it is utterly irreconcilable. It is two different characters and natures - no way around it. The very defense of Gods character that is being protected actually paints Him as a monster no matter how complex or wordy the attempt to justify the position - a God who asks men to love and lay down their lives for others (which the Lord Jesus did for mankind and we are to follow in His footsteps)leaves the non elect to perish in eternal torment with no possible hope from before the foundation of the world! How could this be? - or to my original intent of posting on this - how can anyone truely love or trust such a God? I just cannot get it or understand this and probably never will. I guess I am beginning to beat a dead horse and better move on! - God bless, Bob

The very defense of Gods character that is being protected actually paints Him as a monster no matter how complex or wordy the attempt to justify the position - a God who asks men to love and lay down their lives for others (which the Lord Jesus did for mankind and we are to follow in His footsteps)leaves the non elect to perish in eternal torment with no possible hope from before the foundation of the world! How could this be?

The following in an excerpt from an article by Colin Maxwell (The capital letters are in the article)

CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MEN OWE THEIR DAMNATION PURELY TO THE DECREE OF GOD WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO MAN'S OWN SIN:

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that there is such a thing as predestination from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) However some Arminians perceives that the Calvinist thinks that all men were viewed by God as being in a kind of state of neutrality and that He arbitrarily decreed that one would go to Heaven whilst another would go to Hell. This is not so. When God made His sovereign choice before time began, He viewed the whole human race as fallen in sin and so there were no neutrals. He could have left us all to be damned because of our sin and saved none. The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all.

tjservant wrote:

The following in an excerpt from an article by Colin Maxwell (The capital letters are in the article)

CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MEN OWE THEIR DAMNATION PURELY TO THE DECREE OF GOD WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO MAN'S OWN SIN:

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that there is such a thing as predestination from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) However some Arminians perceives that the Calvinist thinks that all men were viewed by God as being in a kind of state of neutrality and that He arbitrarily decreed that one would go to Heaven whilst another would go to Hell. This is not so. When God made His sovereign choice before time began, He viewed the whole human race as fallen in sin and so there were no neutrals. He could have left us all to be damned because of our sin and saved none. The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all.

This is the same lame attempt and a poor way of trying to explain election. It would be better to say I can't explain it. We should be placing some responsibility on man, but no, we had rather blame God only for choosing not to elect the damned.

You know my Bible says Jesus died for all my sins, if he died for all my sins, I am guessing that is all my sins unless you can find a stipulation were he did not die for a certain sin, if he did die for all my sins, then bottom line what sin is it the blood did not cover? what sin can I commit that would cause me to lose my salvation? This is my personal opinion on losing your salvation, if you think you can lose you salvation well maybe "you" can, and if you do feel that way you just diluted the blood IMO, for me personally I cannot possibly lose my Salvation and have never in my life even been concerned about losing it.

This is the same lame attempt and a poor way of trying to explain election. It would be better to say I can't explain it. We should be placing some responsibility on man, but no, we had rather blame God only for choosing not to elect the damned.

I ask only that you read it again. It does place responsibility on man. No one will be in hell that does not deserve it.

You say it is a poor way of explaining election. I say it is a poor way of explaining your view of election, but that it is the right, proper, and true way of explaining election as held by those embracing the doctrines of grace. I say this all in love. Not to change you…only to inform.

A lot of folks view God as sitting in a boat, surrounded by people floating in a sea of torment, looking to Him for salvation. They believe the Calvinist portrays God as “selecting” only a few, while the others cry out to Him with their arms reaching out, waiting for Him to save them from the flames. Yet, He goes right on by, ignoring their cries and pleas, because they are of the non-elect.

This is not the Calvinist view at all.

I will continue with the “sea of people” analogy, but keep in mind, the Calvinist does not see the people as innocent and reaching out to God. The Calvinist sees these people as choosing to remain in their unbelief. They are not calling out to God as He passes them by; they are giving Him the finger. They are enemies of the cross. The true state of fallen man.

This is not a picture showing an unloving God. It is a picture showing a just and holy God.

When attempting to understand the doctrines of grace one must start at the beginning. Man is ether totally depraved, DEAD in sin, unable to lend a hand in the process of bringing himself back to life…or he is not.

The Calvinist views man as being dead after the fall and that man is unable to bring himself back to life. It is a work of God alone.

The Arminian views man as merely inured by the fall. He reaches out to God while God reaches out to him. A group or team effort.

If I believed man was only injured by the fall, I would believe the Calvinist view was indeed horrific. But I do not see this in scripture. I see man as dead in his sins and transgressions.

I only post this to help clarify, not to debate, argue, or persuade.

Grace and peace my friend

Many of the early church fathers so called, have in their writings many things to say about people that "lose salvation" in fact i am surprised to see how they viewed it. They believed a saved person could end up lost, but they did not live in fear, because they knew God was a loving Father and could keep them.

But they believed equally that mans free will and Gods sovereignty in salvation was both equally true without being opposites. We have been fooled by Luther and the reformers that it has to be either or.

The bible teaches both, the book that made me see it crystal clear was David Bercots "will the real heretics please stand up". One of the best things i have ever read. Highly recomended

"The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all."

I should not even respond here - but I can't help it!
I will not use the term "obliged" in the sense as I as a human would be obliged to render a service to someone once someone payed me as in "I owe them". No, in that sense God owes no man anything.
But if God is a God of Love and mercy - then by His own definision He is obliged to be true to His own character and His word. He cannot lie, cheat, decieve, etc. So there are things He cannot do. If He is love, (and the supreme act of the cross proves this), and he is no respector of persons, and His word declairs "whosoever will may come", and He is not willing that any perish, and he commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel and he holds sin accountable (so by implication we have choice to obey or rebell, accept or reject Him,) - I mean - how do you square this? Can we take the word at face value or not? Can a child understand the Gospel or not?
No one yet has answered my question, how do you love and trust a God who decrees others to hell when they can't help what they do,can't even ask for help because they don't even know what to ask for - they are "dead", they don't even know they need help, and were created such that they were doomed before they were born and no matter what they can or cannot do - their eternal state is and was fixed. Created for the slaughter - there is no way aroud this no matter what the dance - yet we are to "wonder" at the fact that He saves some?
The word election in itself implies that something must be elected. When we elect a politician, we do so because we weigh the words and deeds of the person and make a choice based on what we know. What is so far fetched in beleiving God, who knows the end from the begining "saw or sees" each person (is above and beyond time - stands outside of it since it is a creation by Him) sees the past present and future all at once - "foreknew" (a term for our understanding not His) those who would recieve the saviour- and from His point of view are the "elect" because we recieved Him. Now this may be a primitive and imperfect explanation, but it makes much more sense both scripturally and in the heart, and to reason (which God imarted to us) than the doctrine in question.
All this of God, no work of man, no boasting of man, no "works" just believing unto salvation. (To say "yes" is not works - it is a God given abilty to respond - a key elemet in love - love forced upon anyone is no love at all.) This makes sense - it is biblical and does not need a stretch of certain scriptures and no one needs a theological degree. - But somehow the doctrine in question asks it's adherants to love this God who creats billions of creatures for the "good pleasure of His will" - to torment eternally - those who can't even help themselves? - How do they do it? It boogles my mind! This was and is my original question - not debating the doctrine itself which I have now yielded to by total frustration!
God bless, Bob

This article by John Piper may shed some light on the subject. I have not intended to add to your confusion. I hope this article helps. Once again, I am not posting it to convince you, just show how/what others believe.

Article is found [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25740&post_id=200219&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#200219]here[/url]

Grace and peace to you

My Appologies: I have hy-jacked the original thread, and gone off where I did not intend to go- into debating this. As anyone can tell this subject is both like salt on a wound and a hot button both at the same time. There is realy nothing for me to read on this that will help. I have read it all, both sides of it for many years. My mind is made up as to what I believe to be true - but emotionally this topic still grabs me at times. This is something I must work out with the Lord - it may be my "thorn" - it sure feels like it at times. Again, sorry for taking this thread off track and provoking anyone with me views.
God bless, Bob

(As theophilus20 sildes refrigbob a chillpill)
"- But somehow the doctrine in question asks it's adherants to love this God who creats billions of creatures for the "good pleasure of His will" - to torment eternally - those who can't even help themselves? - How do they do it? It boogles my mind! This was and is my original question - not debating the doctrine itself which I have now yielded to by total frustration!"
Remember; God didnot create us in a broken, lost state. That was our choice to leave his presense, and hide from his voice in our sins. God doesnt Send anyone to be "tormented eternally", thats where we are already headed by the seperation caused by Adam and Eve. God is the one extending a way out of the eternal damnation that we are already headed twards. He is the One holding His hand out (Jesus Christ) to thoes in the water who will drown without his help. Its not his fault we are broken, as if he created us broken then only picks a few.
Im not even sure if that is your point or if you are just questioning the mind boggling thought of ppl who actually have this view. Somehow I think you already get what i have just said. (I hope)

Seeing this is true, faith seem to me something that we can loose.

So let us run this race unto the end to receive the crown of life.

tjservant:
"There are very few errors and false doctrines of which the beginning may not be traced up to unsound views about the corruption of human nature. Wrong views of a disease will always bring with them wrong views of a remedy. Wrong views of the corruption of human nature will always carry with them wrong views of the grand antidote and cure of that corruption." - J.C. Ryle

Lovely quote. Could you tell me what book it is in. I Googled it up and couldn't find it.