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Theology

Sovereignty

D
DirkW Sep 28, 2008

Hello dear brothers,
A question that needs some explanation...
I'm studying how the sovereignty of God works. A strange question :). However I'm stumbling on some things...because some people say there is a difference between the sovereignty of God before the cross and after the cross (is this so?).
And we are coming to a point that some people even say there is no sovereignty (word of faith)...for example in healing because the healing is already provided in the cross. So everything we need is provided for example, we only have to believe and make it manifest. So Gods will is known by scripture. And in the NEW testament we never see God doing something without faith in Him from people is been said. How do we look against Gods sovereignty in the new testament? Is there any difference? And somebody please help me from scripture in his context :)

S
sojourner7 Sep 28, 2008

Our God was, is, and always will be AlMighty,
Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, and Sovereign!!
He is Unchanging in His ways and His will.
His dealings with us are more tempered with
mercy because of the cross and the sacrifice
of His Son. Healing is a matter of mercy;
God's mercy. It is still God's choosing and
God's willing in all His dealings with the
sons of men. His dealings with His Own
children are more benevolent.

B
bible1985 Sep 29, 2008

I had a lady say that it was already done on the cross and that my back would be healed if my faith was not weak, but i did have faith with no healing still. I have been healed by god before but she told me the problem was me. But what can you do if God isn't budging to heal you. I remember paul in corinthians saying he had a thorn in the flesh and he prayed three times for healing without being healed for god's reason only. Everything has to be in Gods will to. I disagree that we our not suppose to get sick or hurt or be untouchable as christians, God uses that to strengthen and give us more wisdom and to humble us to know that we our just his and nothing of ourselves. God can will anything he wants, and sometimes he allows you to not be healed but he will be with you through it all.

P
preacherafla Sep 29, 2008

It is a blessing to serve a Sovereign God with whom all things are possible. The cross did not change God's Sovereignty.
It is because of God's Sovereignty that we can take to heart promises that are in His Word. Like, Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
And, 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God is awesome and sovereign and that is a wonderful praise.

As for healing...God can heal but there are times He chooses to give grace to endure rather than heal. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

There is a good sermon on the Sovereignty of God that can be found on Paul Washer's website - Heartcry Mission that is found in the series attributes of God. It is by Mack Tomlinson.

In His service,
Steve

D
DirkW Sep 29, 2008

Some questions and I would like to have direct/biblical answers with scripture (not just like the healing discussion we've had a while ago). I just want answers to these questions supported by scripture in his context. So please brothers...here are the questions...

- With faith nothing is impossible, what's the role of Gods sovereignty in all of this?

- If we study the words of Jesus is He saying that above faith there is still sovereignty of does He mean other things? Where is He speaking about sovereignty?

- If the Lord Jesus constantly says we have to pray in faith and we will receive. What part does sovereignty play in all of that?

- How is Gods sovereignty made manifest in the old testament and the new testament? What's the difference and why? (THE CROSS)

- If God is sovereign then what's the use of praying? Of believing Him? Of preaching the gospel? A sovereign God can be very unfaithful in that way if He draws His own plans (hope I'm translating this clear).

- Say God touches someone and the person repents while the person wasn't looking for Him. Is this mercy/grace or sovereignty?

- What's the balance between grace and sovereignty?

- Is God totally sovereign? And if so is He sovereign towards His Son? (word became flesh), towards His word and towards faith in His word en His Son (hebr. 11:6)

D
DirkW Sep 30, 2008

Anyone please?

sermonindex Sep 30, 2008

Dirk... I think everyone here is kinda weary from debating Calvinism (for and against!), which probably explains why you're not getting a big response.

Just my own opinion.

Krispy

D
DirkW Sep 30, 2008

I don't need a whole discussion :) , I just want to know people vision from scipture on this topic. Sometimes we will have different opinions and views on scripture but we can learn from each other and search together for truth.

S
sojourner7 Sep 30, 2008

Sovereignty simply means that God chooses, God
determines, God purposes and plans. He desires
for us to commit to His will and follow His
purposes and plans for us!!

B
boG Oct 1, 2008

I am posting this for the express purpose of a humble attempt at reconciling the two theological camps. The intent of our discussions is the preservation of purity and the worship of God's holiness. And as such, I do not believe that man having free will, as a moral and responsible creature, violates or contradicts in any way God's Sovereignty.


Spurgeon once said in his sermon, [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm][b]Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility[/b][/url],

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."

I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

Tozer has also written in his book, [b][url=http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/T/Tozer%20-%20Knowledge%20Of%20The%20Holy%20(b).pdf]Knowledge of the Holy[/url][/b], chapter 22
The Sovereignty of God,

Another real problem created by the doctrine of the divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he can not exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?

The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.

Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say,
“What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.

Perhaps a homely illustration might help us to understand. An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man’s freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God’s sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being.

We know that God will fulfill every promise made to the prophets; we know that sinners will some day be cleansed out of the earth; we know that a ransomed company will enter into the joy of God and that the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father; we know that God’s perfections will yet receive universal acclamation, that all created intelligences will own Jesus Christ Lord to the glory of God the Father, that the present imperfect order will be done away, and a new heaven and a new earth be established forever.

Toward all this God is moving with infinite wisdom and perfect precision of action. No one can dissuade Him from His purposes; nothing turn Him aside from His plans. Since He is omniscient, there can be no unforeseen circumstances, no accidents. As He is sovereign, there can be no countermandedorders, no breakdown in authority; and as He is omnipotent, there can be no want of power to achieve His chosen ends. God is sufficient unto Himself for all these things.

In the meanwhile things are not as smooth as this quick outline might suggest. The mystery of iniquity doth already work. Within the broad field of God’s sovereign, permissive will the deadly conflict of good with evil continues with increasing fury. God will yet have His way in the whirlwind and the storm, but the storm and the whirlwind are here, and as responsible beings we must make our choice in the present moral situation.

Certain things have been decreed by the free determination of God, and one of these is the law of choice and consequences. God has decreed that all who willingly commit themselves to His Son Jesus Christ in the obedience of faith shall receive eternal life and become sons of God. He has also decreed that all who love darkness and continue in rebellion against the high authority of heaven shall remain in a state of spiritual alienation and suffer eternal death at last.

Reducing the whole matter to individual terms, we arrive at some vital and highly personal conclusions. In the moral conflict now raging around us whoever is on God’s side is on the winning side and can not lose; whoever is on the other side is on the losing side and can not win. Here there is no chance, no gamble. There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on but no freedom to negotiate the results of the choice once it is made. By the mercy of God we may repent a wrong choice and alter the consequences by making a new and right choice. Beyond that we can not go.

The whole matter of moral choice centers around Jesus Christ. Christ stated it plainly: “He that is not with me is against me,” and “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” The gospel message embodies three distinct elements: an announcement, a command, and a call. It announces the good news of redemption accomplished in mercy; it commands all men everywhere to repent and it calls all men to surrender to the terms of grace by believing on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

We must all choose whether we will obey the gospel or turn away in unbelief and reject its authority. Our choice is our own, but the consequences of the choice have already been determined by the sovereign will of God, and from this there is no appeal.


I really like the way Spurgeon and Tozer explain here this attribute and nature of God. I especially appreciate the way Tozer has explained that God who is Almighty and Omniscient is the only God capable of creating men of free will and not being hindered or challenged in His Perfect Sovereignty, in design, will or purpose. While a God of lesser degree or stature could never do such a thing and remain sovereign.

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