Pub Situation

Dear Team,

I have had some excellent help from this forum in the past. Once again I come to this online community for answers or perhaps help to analyze my response to a question put forth by my colleague at work. The Analysis has to be done through a biblical world view

So the question is (I paraphrase to the closest accuracy )

"Hi would you like to come to the pub on thursday, as a friend of mine from church is playing a gig there"

Gig refers to a song in above context.

Background information
I will attempt to present facts and be as objective as possible without judging.

1. My colleague goes to church on Sunday
2. My colleague has no issues going to pubs
3. My colleague drinks alcohol.
4. Both of us work in Melbourne Australia.
5. I hate pubs, Alochol ( if there was a way to convert alcohol to electricity i would do it)
6. I do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)
7. I goto church on Sunday
8. It is my desire to please the Lord Jesus Christ
9. I do not believe the Lord would have me goto Pubs
9. my colleague and i are the only two Christians in my workplace.
10. I am vulnerable to the opposite sex.

Having now established some context my response to the question was

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

This response was given in presences of my colleague and several others who do not believe in the christian worldview.

Is there anything wrong with my response. If so please give me reasons.

Also do the following response provider a better way

1. " I don't like to go there"
2. " Get a grip man what are you doing !"
3. " Jesus would not like it if I went there ".

Great questions brother.

I would have to say that if you are being lead by the Lord to not attend this event, do not attend. But to say that you would not go into a pub because "you are a Christian reminds me of some of these...

[u][b]Matthew 9:10-14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Are you sure that the Lord is keeping you away, or would it be some sort of religiousity in you? Compare yourself to scripture. Also...

[u][b]Luke 18:9-14 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; [b]for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/b]

All of this being said... you have begun to state your faith in the Lord through this situation. Let the Lord continue to work through you. This doesn't mean that you have to attend anything that is allowing sin to be present, but only that His ways are higher then our ways. Maybe the appointment IS devine.?.?.

Blessings brother.

First, this is the type thread that will generate much interest.

Also, from scripture, people will point out that is is both ok and not ok to go.

However, let us look at scripture.

Romans 14v21, 'It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine, not to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.'

Also in verse 23 of the same chapter it says, 'But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith, for whatever is not from faith is sin.'

We need to follow our own conviction, regardless of the convictions of others.

I can see people saying, well, Jesus dined with sinners.

We're not Jesus.

I don't see how compromise will bring people to Christ. We might bring them to a building where the church worships, but that does not mean we have brought them to Christ.

Besides, how does a 'Christian' singing in a pub bring glory to God?

Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God, 1 Cor 10v31.

God bless.

I understand where you're coming from personally. As long as being in that environment doesn't cause you or other fellow christians who know you to stumble into sin or harm a weaker christians conscience. That said, when Canton had several bars in the downtown area several of us would go out street witnessing, as a result of this we were invited into one or more bars for a debate, by the owners often times none the less. We wrestled over this matter long and hard and came to the conclusion that Jesus went where He was invited. We never stayed to socialize but went in to engage thoughs who were there and to answer questions.
As to your response, you have to meet the Lord on the battlefield of your own heart and walk according to two rules 1) conscience, that needs protected and nurtured according to biblical knowledge and prayer 2) Faith, what ever is not of faith is not pleasing to God and is sin. Now Faith is a strange and wonderful virtue and gift from God and is closely related to conscience in it exercise, so walk in faith.

I believe you did right for you. I know also that "worldview" is the new christian catch word passed about these days, I wouldn't so much as worry about how it will look to others as how Jesus will see(weigh) my actions. God Bless bro daryl

You told us the truth of why you don’t want to go or feel this conflict. Just tell them whatever the truth is.

I’d like to hear him play. Like the idea of going with you. But I really hate alcohol, what it does to people, what it has done to me in the past. (Tell him. Men know about alcohol and women, right?). Maybe it’s a particular weakness on my part but I can’t avoid seeing, as the night progresses, how it hurts people. And they don’t even know it. I know it would hurt my enjoyment of hearing him play (whatever). When I said, " I am not coming, because I am a Christian " I didn’t know how to explain it without ….. Freedom from all kinds of stuff that goes on in bars is so precious to me, part of my relationship with God/Jesus. Who know what will happen as I grow. I didn’t say all this (whatever you end up saying) because (you also value your relationship to him). I can really loose it sometimes and I want to stick as close to what I sense and know of Christ as I can. I sure hope you understand.

[b]Ok so maybe men don’t talk that way[/b]. But you can tell the truth about you somehow. Not the theology, the truth as it is alive in you so far. SO FAR.

Sounds like God may have it in His heart to use you and it’s time for you to get even clearer on sharing Truth and Grace. Truth in Love. Wonderful.

I can’t shake the feeling that God will “invade” the Pubs in Scotland (see Greenock Conference). Or at least those that go to pubs. Maybe you would go and witness that? :-) Maybe they will web-cast testimonies.

Do we get to hear how it goes so we can learn?

Hi joe...

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

Is there anything wrong with my response. If so please give me reasons.

Also do the following response provider a better way

1. " I don't like to go there"
2. " Get a grip man what are you doing !"
3. " Jesus would not like it if I went there ".

How about this response:

"Thank you for the invitation, but I cannot attend because alcohol is incompatible with my beliefs as a Christian. Perhaps we can meet somewhere else next time?"

It is possible to be honest with an individual without somehow (by our words or attitude -- even if done with integrity) making us look like "mindless" or almost arrogant religious clones. I am reminded of [url=http://www.lastdaysministries.org/Articles/1000008550/Last_Days_Ministries/LDM/Discipleship_Teachings/How_To_Be.aspx]a picture[/url] on one of Keith Green's "wisetracts" that my mom used to have. It showed an apparently zealous believer -- so zealous that people literally ran from him.

Shortly after I met the Lord, I had a friend who went "door-to-door" with me sharing the "Good News." Our congregation had set aside Sunday night as a time to go out in pairs and bring the Gospel to our city. My friend, a guy much older than me (I was a teen) had come from a loose background of sin (sex, drugs and rock-n-roll). At one of the houses that we knocked on the door, I began to share my faith. After this person kindly listened for a while, this person thanked me but replied that they were already Christians. My friend immediately jumped in. He said something to the effect of, "[i]Christians? Is that a television in your house? You watch television and movies? You aren't a Christian! You are deceived by the devil![/i]" The person was immediately offended, turned red in the face, criticized our attitude, asked us to leave and then slammed the door. As we walked off, my friend said, "[i]It's okay brother. We're just being persecuted for righteousness[/i]."

The point is that our purpose should not be to offend those around us. The truth of God's Word has power. It will offend those who are already closed to the truth. But to those whose hearts are prepared...or who have a stirring and longing within their souls, the Good News has the power to draw them to Christ.

Paul proclaimed to the believers that he helped to cultivate, as he was leaving them for what would be the last time, that he had not failed to declare "[i]all the counsel of God[/i]." Ray Comfort, in his message [i]Hell's Best Kept Secret[/i] (available here on SermonIndex), illustrates the fact that people can't understand the "Good News" unless they realize the "Bad News" (namely, that this world is lost, dying and on its way to Hell).

However, the problem with much of the preaching today (especially open air preaching) is that most people just don't want to stick around to hear it. They are turned off in the beginning -- often by our manners. While we mean it with pure love, they see it as mere [u]criticism[/u]. There is a bridge to such individuals. In the Word, we read that people -- including prostitutes, tax collectors and even children -- followed Jesus. What did He do to attract them? Were His Words simply a constant barrage of criticism that were true? Or were the people convinced that this man cared for them?

I learned a long time ago that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Anyone can discipline or correct a person. But when that person knows that the discipline or correction comes from a heart of love, then it has the power to break pre-built down walls of the heart and mind.

A church that I attended when I was an undergrad had a vibrant bus ministry that I started. We went from 0 kids to over 450 kids! Yet I was extremely strict. I preached to these children (mostly from poor homes or government projects) -- and wouldn't put up with any disruption during the meeting. It was chaotic in the sense that it grew so large so fast. Yet the meetings were wonderful! Children from the streets would weep during our times of worship and prayer! One day, many of the helpers (bus drivers, bus monitors and assistants) spoke up in one of our meetings. They complained that I was "too strict" with the rules. They complained that many of the children already get criticized or disciplined at home, so they didn't need it at Church. I explained that children are very perceptive. They know the difference between discipline and correction that comes from a heart of love -- and discipline and correction that comes from a heart of arrogance or frustration. To this day, many of those children (now teens or even adults) are still serving God -- along with their parents!

Whenever we share our faith or even our convictions about what we understand (or think we understand) from the Word of God, we should always mingle our words with the overwhelmingly apparent love of God. And why should this surprise us? Isn't this the way that the Lord deals with us individually? He doesn't treat us with "shock and awe" (except, perhaps, as a final measure). Matthew 11:28-30 says that Christ is "meek and gentle at heart." He constantly bids us to come unto Him. And in Him we find a peace that passes all understanding.

Brother, when you speak with your friend, bear this in mind. There is a way to be truthful...with tact. In other words, you can share your faith without obviously offending your hearer. The world holds a stereotype of Christians; and sadly, Christians often live up to that stereotype. We aren't all social failures who are parrots/puppets of our pastors. We certainly lay down our lives as dung when compared to the surpassing knowledge of friendship with Christ. We are new creatures...but we are still married to our wives, live in our temporary citizenship, hold our jobs, provide for our families. The transformation is in how we view and react with this world. But this can be illustrated by love.

Anyway, you are in my prayers, brother. May the Lord provide you with the precise words to use in order to win over those around you!

:-)

*P.S. - It would be easy for us to walk around while shouting to everyone, "[i]You're going to go to Hell...because of your alcohol! You are going to burn for Eternity because of your televisions...and movies...and books...and magazines...and clothes![/i] Do you see how arrogant that this sort of speech might come across. Yes, it could strike fear in the heart of unbelievers. However, I think that most people would view such a preacher with a "my way or the highway" arrogance -- if his love was not completely apparent. Besides, it isn't all of these things that take the world to Hell. It is the fact that they simply ignore or reject Jesus Christ. All of the rest is primary only in the sense that sin separates men from God. But an attempt at holy living still does not result in salvation. We are only saved because we believe in and cling to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi Krispy...

I wouldn't "nitpick" with that -- because I agree. I certainly believe that the "wine" mentioned in the Bible was fermented, because there was simply no means to prevent fermentation (and grape juice begins fermentation within 24-72 hours of juicing).

Of course, there is an interesting case against man-made alcohols (like those that are brewed or alcohols and liquors that are created by artificial means meant to enhance, speed up or increase the power of the alcohol). But regardless, the "sin" in question is drunkeness. I suppose that it would be interesting to consider just when "drunkeness" begins. It would take quite a bit of natural wine to get a person drunk versus "enhanced" drinks like one would expect to drink at a pub (enhanced beers, vodkas, and other liquors). Whereas even children in Europe are accustomed to drinking wine during meals, this is a far cry from going to a pub and paying money for a drink created to propel the drunken effect.

Myself? I am quite certain that drinking wine is permissible according to Scripture. Yet I don't drink. I just don't like the smell or taste of fermented fruit. I don't think that I could develop a taste for wine -- especially since we have technology available today that prevents the fermentation process (which was unavailable in Biblical times). Now a bottle of fresh concord grape juice or pomegranite juice (like the Pom brand available at the grocery store) -- that is some GREAT stuff! I would take that over a glass of wine anyday! Of course, I wouldn't pass judgment a person who did take an occasional glass of wine either.

I agree that there is a way that isn't quite so confrontational. Moreover, I agree with you that if our brother is convinced that entering any establishment that serves liquor is inappropriate, he can politely explain his position with unoffensive tact. Who knows? Perhaps the hearer would be inclined to search himself and his own beliefs after such a statement?

:-)

Let's push all hermeneutics aside for a moment.

Steve, brother, can I ask you plainly why you drink? You may be thinking it's none of my business to ask this question, and you are probably feeling a bit defensive right now, but I want to assure you this is not an attack. I just have a few things to ask you, things that I believe deserve your serious attention. Brother, in humility and openess please try to consider the following: Is enjoying an occasional drink - even behind closed doors and without getting drunk - really worth forfeiting the authority you [i]could have[/i] with God if you didn't drink? Give this serious attention. Think of how much you lose out, brother, think of all the wisdom and unction in ministry you unknowingly relinquish because of this vice, think of how no serious man or woman of God will receive anything you have to say on holiness and sanctification and self-denial once they realize you drink (even in private), and think of how the Holy Spirit will put checks in everyone's spirit once you begin publically condoning alcohol consumption as a Christian (whether it's prohibited in the Bible or not). Brother, you cannot argue these things; this is reality.

When a man who professes Christ in the same breath also professes to consume alcohol and then [i]defends[/i] his drinking before other saints, he loses any unction he had in the Word and the Lord will not bring him to the deeper levels of His school. He bottoms out and meanders indefinately in an area where he no longer has divine influence upon other men. It has been my observation, and the observation of other saints down throughout history that God does not invest His power in men who drink alcohol as a form of personal recreation. Indeed, alcohol may be permissable, but this doesn't mean it's expedient in God's eyes. Alcohol may be permissable, but this doesn't mean it's beneficial to your progressing in maturity. Alcohol may be permissable, but it doesn't mean God is required to fill you with His power on account of it. The question, therefore, is permission versus expediency (I Cor. 6:12).

Now, the withdrawl of the authority of God in ministry is decidedly not expedient to a believer, and we understand that this sort of thing not only pertains to those who drink alcohol, but to any other type of vice the Holy Spirit refuses to sanction in the lives of those who would go onto the more glorious levels in the knowledge of God's grace. Sure, such men continue to learn about the Bible and participate in heated apologetics and polemics and politics and whatever else, but this earthly realm is exactly where they'll stay for the rest of their lives.

Brother, I say this in love, having followed your threads defending alcohol consistently for years now. I understand it's a self-fulfilling vice, otherwise you would have given it up years ago, like most do when they become apprehended by God. Others for whatever reason continue to cling to it, thinking they too can indulge in moderation and "have their cake and eat it too" spiritually, but it never pans out, and they always end up paying the price. God, Who is no respector of persons, doesn't disown you as a child, but the sad truth is that He doesn't use you either. Not in transforming lives, not at the level of influence He originally desired for your life. Right now, you're probably thinking about all the people you've influenced for Christ in the past, at home and in this forum over the years, and you think you've done pretty good. You feel decently used by God despite all I've said. This may be true, but I am speaking of an intimacy and an authority in God that is on a whole other level.

Brother, take this for what it's worth. Drinking alcohol and naming the Name of Christ doesn't cause me look any lower or love you less as a brother, but it does sadden me. Because I know with your zeal and boldness and in the open integrity you constantly demonstrate here before the brethren, you could be a much greater weapon in the hands of God.

O brother, won't you take this issue to prayer, in light of this post?

As always, I remain your brother in the love of Christ.

Paul

Thank you Chris for a keeper link. The words on that track were even better than the picture.

Are those tracts available? I could just e-mail a link but there is something about having a piece of paper in you hand. Do you know the original Finney the paraphrase came from?

g'day cobber

joeSOC wrote:

"Hi would you like to come to the pub on thursday, as a friend of mine from church is playing a gig there"

Was this a woman who was asking you to go?

" I am not comming, because I am a Christian "

So you think your are a wowser. Don't worry everything will be okay.

You could have just said "sorry I can't make it".

You don't have to give a explanation as to why you don't want to go.

"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak" (1 Corinthians 8:9).

"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. (1 Cor.8: 11-13).

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Cor.10:31).

I am not convinced that you are right on what you say about Christians who occasionaly drink, but I think it is possible that you may be right.

So, someone who is grossly overwieght, do you think they dishonor the Lord?....

Many people who insist on their right to have an occasional drink or cigarette and then minister the Word of God to others have already been dealt with on those things - and have disobeyed God. And so God withdraws and they once again experience their "freedom", and now they ardently defend this freedom by pointing to the freedom verses in scripture.

in the same sentence that they accused the Lord of being a winebibber(this is an insult aimed at people who drank alcoholic wine on a regular basis, the modern day word being "tippler.")they also accused Him of being a glutton.

(edit) Hey Frank, just so you don't think I typed all this with a vindictive scowl, or I'm accusing you of gluttony and winebibbing:

:-D

You know I love you dearly, and honor your fellowship. I'd give you a big Christian hug right now if I could (even tho you don't like the Puritans, I guess I could still do it) :-P

Brother Paul

Yeah, brother, I figured you might take my response as being angry; we've got to be very careful with this medium when discussing volatile subjects like this one. Emoticons come in exremely helpful :)

Okay, let me try answer some of your points.

I think you may go a little far in saying that the heavens are shut to these people and that ultimately God cannot use them.

I would be interested in what you thought of C.S.Lewis who liked an occasional drink and smoke, yet whose writngs have been greatly used by the Lord.

Tozer had this to say about Lewis, and I totally agree:

[i]"He (C.S. Lewis) brings to the defense of historic Christianity a mind as clear as sunlight and an amazing ability to make the faith of our fathers appear reasonable. His weakness, or rather the weakness of his books, lies in an almost total absence of [b]moral urgency[/b]. One may read his arguments, admit their soundness and remain completely unmoved by the whole thing. In short, his books persuade the intellect but never get the conscience in trouble. For this reason, C.S. Lewis must remain an apologist; he can never be a reformer."[/i] (A.W. Tozer, from "We Need Sanctified Thinkers")

I agree that C.S. Lewis' ministry lacked the divine life-giving unction of God. I tell you that I have never met a man who professed Christ and who drank socially and/or recreationally who had the life-giving authority of God on his ministry. I've met plenty of men who could write very good and thought-provoking Christian articles and argue the faith and quote scripture prolifically, but who lacked that mysterious and elusive authority of the Holy Spirit which is able to irretrievably transform a person's life for the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven. The latter is a stamp of a broken man who has given up all and has nothing but the Lord to cling to, with both hands free to grip the cross.

I was still a smoker for three years after coming to Jesus. No one had to tell me it was wrong, I knew it, right in the center of my heart I knew it. The Lord was so patient and kind, not one time rebuking it. I tried and failed a couple of times. I smoked two packs a day and had done for many years.

I am 100% convinced that a Christian who clings to alcohol is sabotaging God's absolute best for his life, not because of the alcohol per say, but because of their disobedience in not doing what they know they should obstructing God's further work of grace in their spirits. Ministers who love the Lord will not try to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit in this matter with someone who drinks - and if I am guilty of that, I truly repent and apologize to you and Steve - but I do count it my duty and labor of love to exhort my brethren in considering what they may be missing in exchange for their vices, whatever those vices may be.

Peace and love dear brother,

Paul

Thankyou Frank and Paul for addressing these issues on this matter. I'm so glad the Lord has allowed them to come up as they are sensity to many saints and you have both experienced similar situations concerning tobacco and alcohol.

I, myself, after backsliding miserably for 15 years became a prisoner to both these vices as well as compulsive gambling.

I could not preach the gospel even after I came back to the Lord because these still had a hold on me. I so did not want to shame Jesus by speaking of salvation while I was still bound by things that did not bring Him glory.

Then one day, in the midst of His gentle dealings, I knew the time had come and that they had to go together. I stayed up until 1:30 am drinking and smoking my last.

That was 5 years ago and than I was free to speak the word and provide a wonderful testimony as well to others bound. I had no withdrawels whatsoever after a 12 pack of beer and 2 pack of cigarette a day habit. How I thank Him.

Dear brethren that are still under bondage, I attest to the fact that He is still a deliverer.

Kathleen

I am 100% convinced that a Christian who clings to alcohol is sabotaging God's absolute best for his life, not because of the alcohol per say, but because of their disobedience in not doing what they know they should obstructing God's further work of grace in their spirits. Ministers who love the Lord will not try to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit
Peace and love dear brother,

Paul

Hi

I completely agree with Bro. Paul on the things he mentioned.

Before I got saved, i was into the habit drinking for almost like 5-6years and was completely a slave to it. I just did not know how to get rid of it. But, once the Lord touched me I got completely delivered of it. And it's been more than 3years since.
And i do think the Lord wants everyone to get delivered from alcohol completely- the calling of a Christian is a higher one (one to abstain from all appearance of evil).

Now to answer the questions by 'joeSOC':
* I think you did the right thing by disagreeing to there. We always learn from experience of how to respond to them that are 'without'- the Lord teaches.
-I am probably the only one in the whole of my office who doesn't drink at all. And i strongly stand by my convictions in all circumstances. So, be encouraged brother, the Lord needs people everywhere and sometimes His witnesses are alone.
-Initially after i got saved, i used to avoid going to office parties etc... but gradually whenever i felt led i did go and the best part is I usually ended up testifying to my colleagues of the Lord and of His saving power- sometimes even to my higher officials and people from other countries too. But, i only go when i feel that God was permitting and leading me. I don't run anywhere wherever i feel like. I think we need to be careful in making our decisions, lest we end up messing up things.

[i][size=x-small]1 Corinthians 10:23 (NLT)[/size][/i]
[i][size=x-small]You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.[/size][/i]

(Apologize for the length of the post- didn't know how to keep it short) :oops: