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On Perfection by John Wesley

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murrcolr Oct 16, 2008

"Let us go on to perfection." —Hebrews 6:1

The whole sentence runs thus: "Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection: Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God;" which he had just before termed, "the first principles of the oracles of God," and "meat fit for babes," for such as have just tasted that the Lord is gracious.

That the doing of this is a point of the utmost importance the Apostle intimates in the next words: "This will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and have fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance." As if he had said, If we do not "go on to perfection," we are in the utmost danger of "falling away;" And if we do fall away, it is "impossible" that is, exceeding hard, "to renew them again unto repentance."

In order to make this very important scripture as easy to be understood as possible I shall endeavour,

I. To show what perfection is;

II. To answer some objections to it; and,

III. To expostulate a little with the opposers of it.

I will endeavour to show what perfection is.

1. And First, I do not conceive the perfection here spoken of, to be the perfection of angels. As those glorious beings never "left their first estate," never declined from their original perfection, all their native faculties are unimpaired: Their understanding, in particular, is still a lamp of light, their apprehension of all things clear and distinct, and their judgment always true. Hence, though their knowledge is limited, (for they are creatures) though they are ignorant of innumerable things, yet they are not liable to mistake: Their knowledge is perfect in its kind. And as their affections are all constantly guided by their unerring understanding, so all their actions are suitable thereto; so they do, every moment, not their own will, but the good and acceptable will of God. Therefore it is not possible for man, whose understanding is darkened, to whom mistake is as natural as ignorance; who cannot think at all, but by the mediation of organs which are weakened and depraved, like the other parts of his corruptible body; it is not possible, I say, for men always to think right, to apprehend things distinctly, and to judge truly of them. In consequence hereof, his affections, depending on his understanding, are variously disordered. And his words and actions are influenced, more or less, by the disorder both of his understanding and affections. It follows that no man, while in the body, can possibly attain to angelic perfection.

2. Neither can any man, while he is in a corruptible body, attain to Adamic perfection. Adam, before his fall, was undoubtedly as pure, as free from sin, as even the holy angels. In like manner, his understanding was as clear as theirs, and his affections as regular. In virtue of this, as he always judged right, so he was able always to speak and act right. But since man rebelled against God, the case is widely different with him. He is no longer able to avoid falling into innumerable mistakes; consequently, he cannot always avoid wrong affections; neither can he always think, speak, and act right. Therefore man, in his present state, can no more attain Adamic than angelic perfection.

3. The highest perfection which man can attain, while the soul dwells in the body, does not exclude ignorance, and error, and a thousand other infirmities. Now, from wrong judgments, wrong words and actions will often necessarily flow: And, in some cases, wrong affections also may spring from the same source. I may judge wrong of you: I may think more or less highly of you than I ought to think; and this mistake in my judgment may not only occasion something wrong in my behaviour, but it may have a still deeper effect; it may occasion something wrong in my affection. From a wrong apprehension, I may love and esteem you either more or less than I ought. Nor can I be freed from a likableness to such a mistake while I remain in a corruptible body. A thousand infirmities, in consequence of this, will attend my spirit, till it returns to God who gave it. And, in numberless instances, it comes short of doing the will of God, as Adam did in paradise. Hence the best of men may say from the heart,

"Every moment, Lord, I need
The merit of thy death,

for innumerable violations of the Adamic as well as the angelic law." It is well, therefore, for us, that we are not now under these, but under the law of love. "Love is" now "the fulfilling of the law," which is given to fallen man. This is now, with respect to us, "the perfect law." But even against this, through the present weakness of our understanding, we are continually liable to transgress. Therefore every man living needs the blood of atonement, or he could not stand before God.

4. What is then the perfection of which man is capable while he dwells in a corruptible body? It is the complying with that kind command, "My son, give me thy heart." It is the "loving the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind." This is the sum of Christian perfection: It is all comprised in that one word, Love. The first branch of it is the love of God: And as he that loves God loves his brother also, it is inseparably connected with the second: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:" Thou shalt love every man as thy own soul, as Christ loved us. "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:" These contain the whole of Christian perfection.

5. Another view of this is given us in those words of the great Apostle: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." For although this immediately and directly refers to the humility of our Lord, yet it may be taken in a far more extensive sense, so as to include the whole disposition of his mind, all his affections, all his tempers, both toward God and man. Now it is certain that as there was no evil affection in him, so no good affection or temper was wanting. So that "whatsoever things are holy, whatsoever things are lovely," are all included in "the mind that was in Christ Jesus."

6. St. Paul, when writing to the Galatians, places perfection in yet another view. It is the one undivided fruit of the Spirit, which he describes thus: "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace; longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, fidelity," (so the word should be translated here) "meekness, temperance." What a glorious constellation of graces is here! Now, suppose all these to be knit together in one, to be united together in the soul of a believer, this is Christian perfection.

7. Again: He writes to the Christians at Ephesus, of "putting on the new man, which is created after God, in righteousness and true holiness;" and to the Colossians, of "the new man, renewed after the image of him that created him;" plainly referring to the words in Genesis, (Gen. 1:27) "So God created man in his own image." Now, the moral image of God consists (as the Apostle observes) "in righteousness and true holiness." By sin this is totally destroyed. And we never can recover it, till we are "created anew in Christ Jesus." And this is perfection.

8. St. Peter expresses it in a still different manner, though to the same effect: "As he that hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation." (1 Peter 1:15) According to this Apostle, then, perfection is another name for universal holiness: Inward and outward righteousness: Holiness of life, arising from holiness of heart.

9. If any expressions can be stronger than these, they are those of St. Paul to the Thessalonians: (1 Thess. 5:23) "The God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may the whole of you, the spirit, the soul, and the body," (this is the literal translation) "be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

10. We cannot show this sanctification in a more excellent way, than by complying with that exhortation of the Apostle: "I beseech you, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies" (yourselves, your souls and bodies; a part put for the whole, by a common figure of speech) "a living sacrifice unto God;" to whom ye were consecrated many years ago in baptism. When what was then devoted is actually presented to God, then is the man of God perfect.

11. To the same effect St. Peter says, (1 Pet. 2:5) "Ye are a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." But what sacrifices shall we offer now, seeing the Jewish dispensation is at an end? If you have truly presented yourselves to God, you offer up to him continually all your thoughts, and words, and actions, through the Son of his love, as a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

12. Thus you experience that He whose name is called Jesus does not bear that name in vain: That he does, in fact, "save his people from their sins;" the root as well as the branches. And this salvation from sin, from all sin, is another description of perfection; though indeed it expresses only the least, the lowest branch of it, only the negative part of the great salvation.

---------------------------------------------

I proposed, in the Second Place, to answer some objections to this scriptural account of perfection.

1. One common objection to it is, that there is no promise of it in the Word of God. If this were so, we must give it up; we should have no foundation to build upon: For the promises of God are the only sure foundation of our hope. But surely there is a very clear and full promise that we shall all love the Lord our God with all our hearts. So we read, (Deut. 30:6) "Then will I circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul." Equally express is the word of our Lord, which is no less a promise, though in the form of a command: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matt. 22:37) No words can be more strong than these; no promise can be more express. In like manner, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," is as express a promise as a command.

2. And indeed that general and unlimited promise which runs through the whole gospel dispensation, "I will put my laws in their minds, and write them in their hearts," turns all the commands into promises; and, consequently, that among the rest, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." The command here is equivalent to a promise, and gives us full reason to expect that he will work in us what he requires of us.

3. With regard to the fruit of the Spirit, the Apostle, in affirming, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, temperance," does, in effect, affirm that the Holy Spirit actually works love, and these other tempers, in those that are led by him. So that here also, we have firm ground to tread upon, this scripture likewise being equivalent to a promise, and assuring us that all these shall be wrought in us, provided we are led by the Spirit.

4. And when the Apostle says to the Ephesians, (Eph. 4:21-24) "Ye have been taught, as the truth is in Jesus," -- to "be renewed in the spirit of your mind," and "to put on the new man, which is created after God" -- that is, after the image of God, -- "in righteousness and true holiness," he leaves us no room to doubt, but God will thus "renew us in the spirit of our mind," and "create us anew" in the image of God, wherein we were at first created: Otherwise it could not be said, that this is "the truth as it is in Jesus."

5. The command of God, given by St. Peter, "Be ye holy, as he that hath called you is holy, in all manner of conversation," [1 Pet. 1:15] implies a promise that we shall be thus holy, if we are not wanting to ourselves. Nothing can be wanting on God's part: As he has called us to holiness, he is undoubtedly willing, as well as able, to work this holiness in us. For he cannot mock his helpless creatures, calling us to receive what he never intends to give. That he does call us thereto is undeniable; therefore he will give it, if we are not disobedient to the heavenly calling.

6. The prayer of St. Paul for the Thessalonians, that God would "sanctify" them throughout, and "that the whole of them, the spirit, the soul, and the body, might be preserved blameless," will undoubtedly be heard in behalf of all the children of God, as well as of those at Thessalonica. Hereby, therefore, all Christians are encouraged to expect the same blessing from "the God of peace;" namely, that they also shall be "sanctified throughout, in spirit, soul, and body;" and that "the whole of them shall be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thess. 5:23]

7. But the great question is, whether there is any promise in Scripture, that we shall be saved from sin. Undoubtedly there is. Such is that promise, (Psalm 130:8) "He shall redeem Israel from all his sins;" exactly answerable to those words of the angel, "He shall save his people from their sins." And surely "he is able to save unto the uttermost them that come unto God through him." Such is that glorious promise given through the Prophet Ezekiel: (Ezek. 36:25-27) "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: From all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Such (to mention no more) is that pronounced by Zechariah, (Luke 1:73-75) "The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, that he would grant unto us, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies," (and such, doubtless are all our sins) "to serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." The last part of this promise is peculiarly worthy of our observation. Lest any should say, "True, we shall be saved from our sins when we die," that clause is remarkably added, as if on purpose to obviate this pretence, all the days of our life. With what modesty then can anyone affirm, that none shall enjoy this liberty till death?

8. "But," say some, "this cannot be the meaning of the words; for the thing is impossible." It is impossible to men: but the things impossible with men are possible with God. "Nay, but this is impossible in its own nature: For it implies a contradiction, that a man should be saved from all sin while he is in a sinful body."

There is a great deal of force in this objection. And perhaps we allow most of what you contend for. We have already allowed, that while we are in the body we cannot be wholly free from mistake. Notwithstanding all our care, we shall still be liable to judge wrong in many instances. And a mistake in judgment will very frequently occasion a mistake in practice. Nay, a wrong judgment may occasion something in the temper or passions which is not strictly right. It may occasion needless fear, or ill-grounded hope, unreasonable love, or unreasonable aversion. But all this is no way inconsistent with the perfection above described.

9. You say, "Yes, it is inconsistent with the last article: It cannot consist with salvation from sin." I answer, It will perfectly well consist with salvation from sin, according to that definition of sin, (which I apprehend to be the scriptural definition of it) a voluntary transgression of a known law. "Nay, but all transgressions of the law of God, whether voluntary or involuntary, are sin: For St. John says, 'All sin is a transgression of the law.' " True, but he does not say, All transgression of the law is sin. This I deny: Let him prove it that can.

To say the truth, this a mere strife of words. You say none is saved from sin in your sense of the word; but I do not admit of that sense, because the word is never so taken in Scripture. And you cannot deny the possibility of being saved from sin, in my sense of the word. And this is the sense wherein the word sin is over and over taken in Scripture.

"But surely we cannot be saved from sin, while we dwell in a sinful body." A sinful body? I pray observe, how deeply ambiguous, how equivocal, this expression is! But there is no authority for it in Scripture: The word sinful body is never found there. And as it is totally unscriptural, so it is palpably absurd. For no body, or matter of any kind, can be sinful: Spirits alone are capable of sin. Pray in what part of the body should sin lodge? It cannot lodge in the skin, nor in the muscles, or nerves, or veins, or arteries; it cannot be in the bones, any more than in the hair or nails. Only the soul can be the seat of sin.

10. "But does not St. Paul himself say, 'They that are in the flesh cannot please God?' " I am afraid the sound of these words has deceived many unwary souls; who have been told, Those words, they that are in the flesh, mean the same as they that are in the body. No; nothing less. The flesh, in this text, no more means the body than it does the soul. Abel, Enoch, Abraham, yea, all that cloud of witnesses recited by St. Paul in the eleventh of the Hebrews, did actually please God while they were in the body, as he himself testifies. The expression, therefore, here means neither more nor less than they that are unbelievers, they that are in their natural state, they that are without God in the world.

11. But let us attend to the reason of the thing. Why cannot the Almighty sanctify the soul while it is in the body? Cannot he sanctify you while you are in this house, as well as in the open air? Can the walls of brick or stone hinder him? No more can these walls of flesh and blood hinder him a moment from sanctifying you throughout. He can just as easily save you from all sin in the body as out of the body.

"But has he promised thus to save us from sin while we are in the body?" Undoubtedly he has: For a promise is implied in every commandment of God: Consequently in that, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." For this and every other commandment is given, not to the dead, but to the living. It is expressed in the words above recited, that we should walk "in holiness before him all the days of our life."

I have dwelt the longer on this, because it is the grand argument of those that oppose salvation from sin; and also, because it has not been so frequently and so fully answered: Whereas the arguments taken from Scripture have been answered a hundred times over.

12. But a still more plausible objection remains, taken from experience; which is, that there are no living witnesses of this salvation from sin. In answer to this, I allow,

(A.) That there are not many. Even in this sense, there are not many fathers. Such is our hardness of heart, such our slowness to believe what both the Prophets and Apostles have spoke, that there are few, exceeding few, true witnesses of the great salvation.

(B.) I allow that there are false witnesses, who either deceive their own souls, and speak of the things they know not, or "speak lies in hypocrisy." And I have frequently wondered, that we have not more of both sorts. It is nothing strange, that men of warm imaginations should deceive themselves in this matter. Many do the same with regard to justification: They imagine they are justified, and are not. But though many imagine it falsely, yet there are some that are truly justified. And thus, though many imagine they are sanctified, and are not, yet there are some that are really sanctified.

(C.) I allow that some who once enjoyed full salvation have now totally lost it. They once walked in glorious liberty, giving God their whole heart, "rejoicing evermore, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks." But it is past. They now are shorn of their strength, and become like other men. Perhaps they do not give up their confidence; they still have a sense of his pardoning love. But even this is frequently assaulted by doubts and fears, so that they hold it with a trembling hand.

13. "Nay, this," say some pious and sensible men, "is the very thing which we contend for. We grant, it may please God to make some of his children for a time unspeakably holy and happy. We will not deny, that they may enjoy all the holiness and happiness which you speak of. But it is only for a time: God never designed that it should continue to their lives' end. Consequently, sin is only suspended: It is not destroyed."

This you affirm. But it is a thing of so deep importance, that it cannot be allowed without clear and cogent proof. And where is the proof? We know that, in general, "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." He does not repent of any gifts which he hath bestowed upon the children of men. And how does the contrary appear, with regard to this particular gift of God? Why should we imagine, that he will make an exception with respect to the most precious of all his gifts on this side heaven? Is he not as able to give it us always, as to give it once? As able to give it for fifty years, as for one day? And how can it be proved, that he is not willing to continue this his loving kindness? How is this supposition, that he is not willing, consistent with the positive assertion of the Apostle? Who, after exhorting the Christians at Thessalonica, and in them all Christians in all ages, "to rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, and in everything give thanks," -- immediately adds, (as if on purpose to answer those who denied, not the power, but the will of God to work this in them,) "For this is the will of God concerning you in Christ Jesus." Nay, and it is remarkable, that, after he had delivered that glorious promise (such it properly is) in the twenty-third verse, "The very God of peace shall sanctify you wholly: And the whole of you" (so it is in the original) "the spirit, the soul, and the body, shall be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ;" he adds again, "Faithful is he that hath called you, who also will do it." [1 Thess. 5:23-24] He will not only sanctify you wholly, but will preserve you in that state until he comes to receive you unto himself.

14. Agreeable to this is the plain matter of fact. Several persons have enjoyed this blessing, without any interruption, for many years. Several enjoy it at this day. And not a few have enjoyed it unto their death, as they have declared with their latest breath; calmly witnessing that God had saved them from all sin till their spirit returned to God.

15. As to the whole head of objections taken from experience, I desire it may be observed farther, either the persons objected to have attained Christian perfection, or they have not. If they have not, whatever objections are brought against them strike wide of the mark. For they are not the persons we are talking of: Therefore, whatever they are or do is beside the question. But if they have attained it, if they answer the description given under the nine preceding articles, no reasonable objection can lie against them. They are superior to all censure; and "every tongue that riseth up against them will they utterly condemn."

16. "But I never saw one," continues the objector, "that answered my idea of perfection." It may be so. And it is probable (as I observed elsewhere) you never will. For your idea includes abundantly too much; even freedom from those infirmities which are not separable from a spirit that is connected with flesh and blood. But if you keep to the account that is given above, and allow for the weakness of human understanding, you may see at this day undeniable instances of genuine, scriptural perfection.

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1. It only remains, in the Third place, to expostulate a little with the opposers of this perfection.

Now permit me to ask, Why are you so angry with those who profess to have attained this? And so mad (I cannot give it any softer title) against Christian perfection? -- against the most glorious gift which God ever gave to the children of men upon earth? View it in every one of the preceding points of light, and see what it contains that is either odious or terrible; that is calculated to excite either hatred or fear in any reasonable creature.

What rational objection can you have to the loving the Lord your God with all your heart? Why should you have any aversion to it? Why should you be afraid of it? Would it do you any hurt? Would it lessen your happiness, either in this world or the world to come? And why should you be unwilling that others should give him their whole heart? Or that they should love their neighbours as themselves? Yea, "as Christ hath loved us?" Is this detestable? Is it the proper object of hatred? Or is it the most amiable thing under the sun? Is it proper to move terror? Is it not rather desirable in the highest degree?

2. Why are you so averse to having in you the whole "mind which was in Christ Jesus?" -- all the affections, all the tempers and dispositions, which were in him while he dwelt among men? Why should you be afraid of this? Would it be any worse for you, were God to work in you this very hour all the mind that was in him? If not, why should you hinder others from seeking this blessing? or be displeased at those who think they have attained it? Is anything more lovely? Anything more to be desired by every child of man?

3. Why are you averse to having the whole "fruit of the Spirit?$quot; -- "love, joy, peace; longsuffering, meekness, gentleness, fidelity, goodness, temperance?" Why should you be afraid of having all these planted in your inmost soul? As "against these there is no law," so there cannot be any reasonable objection. Surely nothing is more desirable, than that all these tempers should take deep root in your heart; nay, in the hearts of all that name the name of Christ; yea, of all the inhabitants of the earth.

4. What reason have you to be afraid of, or to entertain any aversion to the being "renewed in the" whole "image of him that created you?" Is not this more desirable than anything under heaven? Is it not consummately amiable? What can you wish for in comparison of this, either for your own soul, or for those for whom you entertain the strongest and tenderest affection? And when you enjoy this, what remains but to be "changed from glory to glory, by the Spirit of the Lord?"

5. Why should you be averse to universal holiness, -- the same thing under another name? Why should you entertain any prejudice against this, or look upon it with apprehension? Whether you understand by that term the being inwardly conformed to the whole image and will of God, or an outward behaviour in every point suitable to that conformity. Can you conceive anything more amiable than this? Anything more desirable? Set prejudice aside, and surely you will desire to see it diffused over all the earth.

6. Is perfection (to vary the expression) the being "sanctified throughout in spirit, soul, and body?" What lover of God and man can be averse to this, or entertain frightful apprehension of it? Is it not, in your best moments, your desire to be all of a piece? -- all consistent with yourself? -- all faith, all meekness, and all love? And suppose you were once possessed of this glorious liberty, would not you wish to continue therein? -- to be preserved "blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?"

7. For what cause should you that are children of God be averse to, or afraid of, presenting yourselves, your souls and bodies, as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God? -- to God your Creator, your Redeemer, your Sanctifier? Can anything be more desirable than this entire self-dedication to him? And is it not your wish that all mankind should unite in this "reasonable service?" Surely no one can be averse to this, without being an enemy to all mankind.

8. And why should you be afraid of, or averse to, what is naturally implied in this; namely, the offering up all our thoughts, and words, and actions, as a spiritual sacrifice to God, acceptable to him through the blood and intercession of his well-beloved Son. Surely you cannot deny that this is good and profitable to men, as well as pleasing to God. Should you not then devoutly pray that both you and all mankind may thus worship him in spirit and in truth?

9. Suffer me to ask one question more. Why should any man of reason and religion be either afraid of, or averse to, salvation from all sin? Is not sin the greatest evil on this side hell? And if so, does it not naturally follow that an entire deliverance from it is one of the greatest blessings on this side heaven? How earnestly then should it be prayed for by all the children of God! By sin I mean a voluntary transgression of a known law. Are you averse to being delivered from this? Are you afraid of such a deliverance? Do you then love sin, that you are so unwilling to part with it? Surely no. You do not love either the devil or his works. You rather wish to be totally delivered from them, to have sin rooted out both of your life and your heart.

10. I have frequently observed, and not without surprise, that the opposers of perfection are more vehement against it when it is placed in this view, than in any other whatsoever. They will allow all you say of the love of God and man; of the mind which was in Christ; of the fruit of the spirit; of the image of God; of universal holiness; of entire self-dedication; of sanctification in spirit, soul, and body; yea, and of the offering up all our thoughts, words, and actions, as a sacrifice to God; -- all this they will allow so we will allow sin, a little sin, to remain in us till death.

11. Pray compare this with that remarkable passage in John Bunyan's "Holy War." "When Immanuel," says he, "had driven Diabolus and all his forces out of the city of Mansoul, Diabolus proferred a petition to Immanuel, that he might have only a small part of the city. When this was rejected, he begged to have only a little room within the walls. But Immanuel answered, "He should have no place at all; no, not to rest the sole of his foot.

Had not the good old man forgot himself? Did not the force of truth so prevail over him here as utterly to overturn his own system? -- to assert perfection in the clearest manner? For if this is not salvation from sin, I cannot tell what is.

12. "No," says a great man, "this is the error of errors: I hate it from my heart. I pursue it through all the world with fire and sword." Nay, why so vehement? Do you seriously think there is no error under heaven equal to this? Here is something which I cannot understand. Why are those that oppose salvation from sin (few excepted) so eager, -- I had almost said, furious? Are you fighting pro aris et focis? "for God and your country?" For all you have in the world? For all that is near and dear unto you? For your liberty, your life? In God's name, why are you so fond of sin? What good has it ever done you? What good is it ever likely to do you, either in this world or in the world to come? And why are you so violent against those that hope for deliverance from it? Have patience with us, if we are in an error; yea, suffer us to enjoy our error. If we should not attain it, the very expectation of this deliverance gives us present comfort; yea, and ministers strength to resist those enemies which we expect to conquer. If you could persuade us to despair of that victory, we should give over the contest. Now "we are saved by hope:" From this very hope a degree of salvation springs. Be not angry at those who are felices errore suo, "happy in their mistake." Else, be their opinion right or wrong, your temper is undeniably sinful. Bear then with us, as we do with you; and see whether the Lord will not deliver us! Whether he is not able, yea, and willing "to save them to the uttermost that come unto God through him."

E
EvangelistC Oct 17, 2008

Excellent sermon. John Wesley is one of my favorites. I agree with a lot of what he teaches even though I am not a Methodist.

M
murrcolr Oct 17, 2008


EvangelistC wrote:
Excellent sermon. John Wesley is one of my favorites. I agree with a lot of what he teaches even though I am not a Methodist.

I myself am not a Methodist, since I been a Christian I have been asked what type are you. I just don't know what to reply so reply I am a Christian there is only one type.

I posted this sermon to bring awareness to the subject of Holiness is. Wesley called it Christian perfection but others have called it by other names.

This Christian Perfection, Second Blessing, Christ All in All, Sancification and or Holiness what ever you want to call it will be one of the key factors of the next Move of God the only difference that instead of having only a few men that have attained this level of walk with God there will be a army of believers.

E
EvangelistC Oct 21, 2008

That is right. In about 8 hours I will be speaking to about 60 to 70 incarcerated youth. I will be teaching them about being sold out for God, more then they were sold out for the enemy. I am glad that you posted that. It is always refreshing to see people that believe the same as me in some areas.

M
murrcolr Jun 29, 2012

Thought I would bump this one up....

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

Thanks Colin.

The problem I find with the sermon, is that man knows the truth through his spirit which is not his mind.

Wesley did not preach the fullest understanding of perfection because of this error. George Fox however, did. It is our spirit which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit - joined together in union. There will be no misunderstandings or errors here but the mind has to work out the things of the world, including the knowledge of mans intentions and here he makes errors. Spiritual knowledge in contrast is discerned above the mind.

John Wesley did have a lot to teach us but we must not put him on a pedestal and think he was right about everything. None of us are.

M
murrcolr Jun 29, 2012

Wesley I feel is trying to explain “perfection” in fine detail so as to reason with the opposers of “perfection” and tries to explain it in fine detail with pen and paper, which is not an easy thing to do.

Quote: Why are you so angry with those who profess to have attained this? And so mad (I cannot give it any softer title) against Christian perfection? -- against the most glorious gift which God ever gave to the children of men upon earth? View it in every one of the preceding points of light, and see what it contains that is either odious or terrible; that is calculated to excite either hatred or fear in any reasonable creature. 

What rational objection can you have to the loving the Lord your God with all your heart?

The resistance against “perfection” is so very strong, from Christians who would claim that they love God. I remember attending a bible class and the bible teacher asked what has God showing you this week. I stood up and said “perfection” I think if the teacher had a bag full of stones he would have been throwing them at me because of the over reaction and the attack that then ensued from him.

Why does the simple word “perfection” get so many mad. I like this next quote.

Quote: "No," says a great man, "this is the error of errors: I hate it from my heart. I pursue it through all the world with fire and sword." Nay, why so vehement? Do you seriously think there is no error under heaven equal to this? Here is something which I cannot understand. Why are those that oppose salvation from sin (few excepted) so eager, -- I had almost said, furious? Are you fighting pro aris et focis? "for God and your country?" For all you have in the world? For all that is near and dear unto you? For your liberty, your life? In God's name, why are you so fond of sin?

In God's name, why are you so fond of sin? That would be a good name for a post but joking aside it is a question that needs to be answered.

In God's name, why are you so fond of sin?

Edited: for spelling

sermonindex Jun 29, 2012

Yes I have experience in this. I was told by a believer that I was going to hell because I believe in perfection. The same one later refused to acknowledge my presence and said he found my presence disgusted him. I have had many such reactions including aggression. The most surprising was from a supermarket assistant who passed me in an aisle and suddenly began to mock me! It was encouraging actually as all of these attacks without reason are as they show how much the devil hates perfection preachers.

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The resistance against “perfection” is so very strong, from Christians who would claim that they love God. I remember attending a bible class and the bible teacher asked what has God showing you this week. I stood up and said “perfection” I think if the teacher had a bag full of stones he would have been throwing them at me because of the over reaction and the attack that then ensued from him.

M
murrcolr Jun 29, 2012

“Perfection” why does it cause offense?

The Word of God declares that "our old man has been crucified with Christ" Romans 6:6 and that "One died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they which live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him" 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.

There is no use our trying to bring some of the natural life into the new creation life, for God will not accept it as in ourselves we possess nothing which is acceptable to God. So often it is natural life, some like or dislike, some ambition or some personal interest, which hinders the work of God in and through us.

We can be unhappy with our lack of spirituality; but will not submit to the verdict of the cross in our natural lives. Death by crucifixion there can be no other way to obtain a spiritual life. The Cross must work out death in us in order that the life of Christ may be released in full expression which is the “perfection” that all can obtain this side of heaven.

Perfection comes by accepting the cross and the cross has always offended. When it is truly "no longer I", then the way is opened for: "but Christ that liveth in me". The end is perfection but the way is the painful way of the Cross.

M
murrcolr Jun 29, 2012

A sermon by David Wilkerson the cost of going all the way

http://media.sermonindex.net/2/SID2490.mp3

This sermon lines with the last few posts of this thread.

S
SonsofLevi Jun 30, 2012

I just read a book called "The Higher Christian Life" by W. E. Boardman, which is a book amongst the highest in spiritual value, in which he calls this "full trust and full salvation". This terminology seems to be more easily entreated than "perfection", though it means the same thing. But for a babe in Christ or for someone new to seeking this deeper work of grace the connotation implies the Lord's working instead of ours a little better. Anyways, I have learned that terminology is many and varied, but the subjective experience of our birthright and fulness of the Holy Spirit is what matters for those who would bare the Living Testimony of Christ.

M
murrcolr Jul 2, 2012

Quote: This terminology seems to be more easily entreated than "perfection", though it means the same thing.

Yes your right "Holiness" has been called many things over the years... There is a right time to use the word "perfect" to describe it and a wrong time it all depends on what the Spirit is leading you to say at the time as there no point offending and losing a brother, but then there are times where you must say the hard thing to win the brother.

S
SonsofLevi Jul 3, 2012

Yes, very true. So far I have found only opposition and/or unbelief when I have tried to fellowship in the deeper life. Even amongst the "charisma" crowd. It has led to a very lonely life, yet fulness of joy unspeakable and full of glory. A few years ago I was so excited when asked to teach a class on Romans. I thought finally true spiritual fellowship would happen. At the same time I caught a warning from the Lord through the ministry of T. Austin-Sparks that anyone who would preach full salvation in Christ will be sorely opposed by satan himself. I didn't grasp the impact at the time, but sure enough satan came in and "had his way" in, on and through these believers at the point I came to Romans 7 and 8 and started talking about the Victorious Life. I in fact got kicked out of the church. Satan in turn "sifted me like wheat", literally almost to the point of death. Then in came the Lord in power and might and delivered me. I now know Him as All in all, and that He meant it all for good. True I thought He was my All in all back then, and enjoyed continual unbroken fellowship, but now through the fire, in a deeper way. Anyone who truly knows the Way of the Cross and the fulness of the Spirit of Christ knows persecution now. There is no need to wait for a "coming persecution". Any Christian that is filled with the Spirit will suffer persecution even in the midst of the visible church. And any church that is filled with the Spirit will not be accepted but rejected by the community. But "Blessed are the perfect in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart."
I agree with you brother, there is a time to snatch out of the fire. We have an apostolic injunction that says "Be holy, for I am holy" and the command to "Be perfect". How unwise it would be to pass over those without looking into what that means for us! And how perplexing it is to us when we know that and find ourselves at our wits end with the desire to be so, and not the power to do. What wretched man, I am! But then with no rebuke, "who will deliver me" becomes "Thanks be to God! Through Jesus Christ our Lord." What wonderful joy when we take Christ as our holiness and perfection! He will do it, He will surely do it! For all that will come to Him by the same simple faith that received Him for the forgiveness of sins.
Anyways, didn't intend on all that. I just meant to post a simple agreement. It's good to have a little fellowship with you brother!

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

SonsofLevi

Its good to hear of another brother who is going the way of the cross. There are few these dark days. Yes the persecution is already here for those who have entered into the spiritual warfare, who love not their lives and have washed their garments in the Blood of the Lamb. Satan hates overcomers. Have you read early Quaker writings? Even though the enemy has left me alone and isolated, I have found fellowship with past writers.

S
SonsofLevi Jul 3, 2012

Krautfrau,

Yes, the Journal of George Fox, Barclay's Apology, and I just recently purchased the Letters of Isaac Penington which I have not read yet. Like you I have got nearly all my fellowship through books. To name a few, Madame Guyon, William Law, Jacob Boehme, Francis de Sales, Andrew Murray, Mrs. Penn-Lewis, T. Austin-Sparks, Watchman Nee, F. B. Meyer, Evan Hopkins, Willam E. Boardman, Francis Ridley Havergal, the early Plymouth Brethren, the early Quakers and others.
Early on I had a period where satan hounded me with thoughts that something was wrong with me because I didn't fit in with other believers, nor did they "hear my language". The Lord gave me an article at just the right time when fear set in which encouraged me. It was called "The Saint Must Walk Alone" by A. W. Tozer.
I know the Lord has his reasons for setting us apart in the midst of the crowd, but when true fellowship comes along how happy a man I'll be!
Even someone to talk to occasionally would be a blessing.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

I`ve read most of those writers. Francis Ridley Havergal`s The Royal Invitation was the most life changing for me. Even email contact would be a blessing to me! Did you notice where Fox`s teaching differs from most of the others?

S
SonsofLevi Jul 3, 2012

Yes, I have noticed that very much so. Barclay was very doctrinal in comparison. Isaac Penington and William Penn speak much of self-denial and the crucified life. And George Fox seems to illustrate Communion with God in practical experience. I haven't read that one by Miss Havergal but I hope to. However, I was recently blessed in "Kept for the Master's Use". She finished the proofs of that book on the day of her passing to be with Jesus. If you've not already read it, she expounds in it her wonderful hymn "Take My Life and Let it Be".
Perhaps we can keep in touch via email. My address is isaiah43one@yahoo.com.

sermonindex Jul 3, 2012

Thanks

B
Blayne Jul 3, 2012

Hi!
SonsofLevi, krautfrau & murrcolr

I jus' wanted to pop in an' say THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for your comments in this Thread. I found them exceedingly encouraging ... a blessing indeed.
I was especially impressed by the lengthy Post of 'murrcolr', On Perfection by John Wesley, "Let us go on to perfection." —Hebrews 6:1.
It was only yesterday that I was chatting OnLine with a Brother from Europe and we were rejoicing together because God is speaking these very things to His people much more intently in this day.
We live in wonderful and exciting times!
Yes, I share the sentiments expressed by 'SonsOfLevi', in that there is indeed a lot of "opposition and/or unbelief". But that has always been the testimony of those who diligently seek after our Lord; so we are in excellent company! :)

S
SonsofLevi Jul 3, 2012

Blessings to you Blayne! And the rest! This thread brought a Scripture to mind, "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name." Malachi 3:16

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