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The pastor said...

sermonindex Oct 20, 2008

Thank you for reading this thread.

I am a little confused about the Bible and Judgement. Does Judgement Day happen each and every moment that someone dies? ...AND there will be the 'greater' Judgment Day when Christ returns? This would then mean that as soon as one dies that they go directly to heaven or hell...?

The reason I ask is because the pastor at the South Korean church that I attend made a statement two weeks ago that has not sat well within me.

An elder of the church died a few weeks ago and last week the pastor said that he is in heaven and we are to now enjoy a meal in his honor (we usually eat after each service, but this one was going to be 'extra special').

What I am having a problem with is not that the elder would make it to heaven or not, but whether or not a (any) pastor has that knowledge or right. Something that further bothers me is if this was someone who was not an elder, nor was saintly, but just a 'sunday Christian' whom had never received Christ and then the pastor casually said that he too 'was in heaven'.

I could go on, but I think I will only confuse myself even further. It just seems like a dangerous habit to get oneself into...proclaiming ones destination.

Am I wrong in questioning this? Am I judging?

Blessings.

G
ginnyrose Oct 20, 2008

It just seems like a dangerous habit to get oneself into...proclaiming ones destination.

Am I wrong in questioning this? Am I judging?

Brian, I, too, have come to this point. When someone dies, many are quickly assuming he/she made it to heaven (usually). The reality is we simply do not know. No one else knows what resided in the heart of this person which could effect his/her eternal destination. Since this is the case I am learning to not speculate; this person had all the opportunities in the world to come to the LORD and I know the Holy Spirit desires all to come to Him so now therefore I will no longer concern myself about a person whose fate is now sealed: nothing can be done to alter it, for good or bad.

Insofar as judgement is concerned, I will leave that to others...you are asking an old question, one that I have grappled with as well..

Blessings,
ginnyrose

E
enid Oct 20, 2008

Scripture has much to say on this subject. Much.

But, since it can be a divisive subject, and might probably become so, I'd rather leave it at that.

God bless.

I
ilive4only1 Oct 20, 2008

No you are not wrong in questioning. I do myself. Not that I speak as someone that knows a lot. I don't. But in the past eight months I have had a grandmother, aunt, uncle, and cousin to die. Every preacher seems to put them all in heaven.

Two of them I know were Christians. Not just by confession, but by the way they lived. Yet they all said they were Christians.

I however, don't seem to find this question of 'are they' or 'aren't they' in the scriptures (NT).

I think it is because in the early church people were known to each other. They were known not just by their confession, but by the way they lived. They lived among each other and were known by each other. For instance:

"Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business". Acts 6:3

"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;" 1 Thes. 5:12

Most Christians don't seem to really know...I mean really know... those that labor among them. Therefore when someone we know dies, we ask 'Where are they really?' 'In heaven?' 'How do we know?'

I do know this. Paul says,

"While we live in this earthly tent, we groan with a feeling of oppression; it is not that we want to get rid of our earthly body, but that we want to have the heavenly one put on over us, so that what is mortal will be transformed by life.

God is the one who has prepared us for this change, and he gave us his Spirit as the guarantee of all that he has in store for us.

So we are always full of courage [b]We know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord's home[/b]." 2 Cor. 5:4-6

Blessings

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Oct 20, 2008

Hello!

I agree that it is certainly acceptable to question such things.

This has been discussed here (and elsewhere) for many, many years. In fact, I was in a congregation a few weeks ago where the pastor made the same declaration -- and added a little doctrinal points about there being more than one Day of Judgment (you know, the ol' ideas about the "Great White Throne Judgment" and "Judgment Seat of Christ"). The preacher went on to describe the idea of a paradise known as "Abraham's Bosom" as a holding cell for the "righteous" from the Old Testament who died outside of the sacrifice of Christ (which begs the question about how they could be "righteous" in the first place -- and whether dying without the sacrifice of Christ was such a terrible thing in the first place).

At best, I think that making doctrines about such a subject that is so fuzzy from the Scriptures is a little hasty. Is it "[i]making doctrines out of molehills[/i]?" Who knows? But I would caution individuals from preaching anything as a TRUTH that isn't abundantly clear from Scripture (even if it seems quite clear -- but there is still a possibility for doubt). It would be terrible to preach a false doctrine simply because we perceived it to be true.

As far as my views on the matter: I think that we often look at this issue [i]through a glass darkly[/i]. We view death as the ultimate end. But is it? After removing a grave stone, Jesus spoke with a loud voice, "[i]Lazarus, come forth!" But where was Lazarus? After his death (four days earlier), did Lazarus (brother of Mary and Martha) immediately go to Judgment and then to Heaven or a place called Abraham's Bosom? Or was he merely [i]sleeping[/i]?

We know that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (II Corinthians 5:8). But are we actually absent from the body...or are we merely sleeping?

Perhaps our flaw in this mystery comes from our limited perspective regarding eternal matters. We are confined to this little thing called TIME. Our physical lives, world and universe have a beginning and an end. Our perspective is skewed by such a notion of time. Yet God is not confined by time. He is EVERLASTING. For an eternity before our physical universe began -- God existed. As the omnipotent and omniscient God, there really isn't a past, present or future for Him. He sits in Eternity -- where He can see past, present and future all at once. This is how He "knew us" before we were born (Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1, etc...). This is how He already knows who belongs to Him and who does not (perhaps an explanation of Calvinist ideas about predestination?).

Consider this: What if we actually do sleep (spiritually) when we die? Perhaps time is no longer a focus for us -- and we sleep? Perhaps our passing from physical life to physical death (a vapor) and then into eternity would (from our perspective) seem just a moment -- even though our spirits sleep for the duration of human history and until the trumpet sounds? Perhaps we all sleep until that trumpet -- and then we all appear in the timeless place known as Eternity? We would all arrive at the same time -- small and great, rich and poor, free and slave. For each of us, it seemed like a twinkling of the eye. At that point, everyone from history would suddenly "awake" at the same place -- where they stand before God in Judgment?

In the Old Testament, there are many instances where it says that a king died and "rested" or with his fathers. Yet Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise." Did Jesus go to paradise? Did He go anywhere other than the grave?

Regardless of our attempt to create a timeline, it is skewed by the ultimate lack of final clarity in the Scriptures. We are left with facts regarding the end. Are we supposed to attempt a way to "figure out" such timelines about the end? If we thought that we did have it figured out, are we supposed to preach it as a truth? Or are we merely meant to understand the facts as presented in the Word of God (the end result of those who die in sin, etc...)?

To this, I would recommend to preachers to avoid making doctrines out of things that aren't entirely clear. How many cults and denominations are formed out of a particular interpretation over a single passage of Scripture? Yet the Bible talks about the importance of "two or more witnesses." If the Mormons had figured that out, perhaps they would never have turned to doctrines that preach everything from "other sheep" (they take to mean American Indians) and their doctrine regarding "baptism for the dead" (which they take from I Corinthians 15:29). Many charismatic churches preach about Jesus dying and then descending into Hell in order to take the keys from Satan (as if they keys were some sort of pseudo-physical object -- and there was a battle needed in addition to the cross). There is a danger in creating doctrines or mandates over something that isn't entirely clear -- or that isn't necessary in the scope of eternity.

The bottom line is that we should live for the purpose in which mankind was created -- to know and fellowship with the Living God who created all there is. Do we go straight to Judgment upon death? Do we sleep until a trumpet sound? Do we [u]ALL[/u] stand in the same Judgment (as Revelation chapter 20 seems to indicate) -- or is there more than one Judgment? Or should we not worry about the exact nature of the future -- since such things are really too wonderful for us to understand completely?

Forgive me for mumbling. I guess that one thing is abundantly clear: Those who die without Christ are doomed. For those who die in Christ, it is "gain" (Philippians 1:21).

:-)

sermonindex Oct 22, 2008

Thank you all for your...answers! ;-) I guess I'll file the question in the 'unanswerable' and move on to another.

Blessings.

E
enid Oct 22, 2008

I think perhaps we forgot this scripture.

1 Peter 3v15,'But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.'

Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.

C
Compton Oct 22, 2008

but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.

Conclusions offend people.

Being hesitant, uncertain, and moderate about everything makes a person seem more thoughtful, humble, and sensitive. It's the ethos of our post-modern culture. Having certainty implies you know right and wrong, good and bad, and other standards.

I'm not implying anything regarding the topic of this thread. I'm just answering your question.

MC

E
enid Oct 22, 2008

That's just it Compton, conclusions offend people, so we don't reach any conclusions. And then we have the gall to go out and tell people Jesus is the answer, and all the time we aren't even sure ourselves.

There seems to be a sort of 'universalist' attitude that prevails when people die, or an 'all roads lead to God' attitude if you like.

Like, if there is a hell, no one goes there, if there is a heaven, everyone goes there.

Why would there be two opposing places if everyone goes to the same place?

2 Cor 5v10, 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ ...

Now, I don't know what the word 'all' means to you, but for me, all means all.

Anyway, enough said.

I
iansmith Oct 22, 2008

Remember the Wheat and the Weeds that Jesus spoke about? There are going to be some in the congregation that look, act and sound like the Children of God who are going to be eternally separated from His Glory. There are also going to be some 'Sunday Christians,' or outright 'Sinners' who will probably be there against our better judgement -that is why Jesus says not to worry about pulling out the weeds, lest we uproot some of the wheat as well. There are going to be people who look like weeds that are actually wheat, and people who look like wheat that are actually weeds -it is going to be the task of the angels to divide them in the end.

Jesus said to the criminal on the cross, 'today you'll be with me in paradise.' But then again, to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day... so theologically speaking, there's really nothing in the bible that answers the question whether we are judged immediately upon dying or at some great endtime judgement... maybe we just have to wait in line for a long time, then again that sounds like Catholic purgatory... so maybe not.

I also attend a Korean church, and over the years my pastor has made such declarations that worried me. He once confessed that he had a hard time comforting the parents of a young man who had committed suicide -they wanted to be assured that he was in heaven, and he couldn't bring himself to share with them what the bible has to say about suicide, he copped out. I think that most people, even good Christians would rather not have to deal with hell... then again, we can also be insensitive and unloving if we automatically condemn everyone to hell, even if they are truly saved. It is a difficult issue.

C
Compton Oct 22, 2008

There seems to be a sort of 'universalist' attitude that prevails when people die, or an 'all roads lead to God' attitude if you like.

Here is a progression as I've often observed it.

1) A new convert holds the pure belief that the cross of Christ alone atones for sin, and justifies the sinner before God.

2) Soon afterwards this new Christian feels disillusionment in discovering that not all who confess Christ are genuine believers.

3) In seeking differentiation from hypocrites, the young believer adopts the notion that a healthy measure of personal sincerity in vital for making making a true Christian.

4) In reaction to shameless hypocrisy in the church, he continues to affirm the cross of Christ doctrinally, but actively begins to emphasize the practice of sincerity, repentance and sorrow as if they are sacraments, making one acceptable to God.

5) This project of insisting on demonstrations of true faith is frustrated by the observation that many non-christians exhibit better lives (in our judgement) then some Christians.

6) With his concerns for hypocrisy distracting him from the Savior, the young Christian is tempted to think that God would be unfair that he would allow some Christians to suffer for their faith, while others have an easier time in life. Indeed, he begins to admire the non-christian who suffers for their belief-system. This sense of injustice that a morally and spiritually sincere person is not acceptable to God, even though they seem to live better then the Christian, embarrasses the young Christian from preaching the sufficiency of Christ alone, lest he allows someone to escape the due penalty of their sin simply through faith alone. In his secret incredulity over the unfairness of the Gospel, he's well on his way to becoming a universalist.

This is simplistic I know...but I've seen this dynamic at work. It's a kind of logic rooted deep in the human heart.

MC

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Oct 22, 2008

Hi enid...

Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.

There certainly is an answer to this question -- but I hesitate to state just who knows it (on this side of Eternity).

I don't think that we are "afraid" to reach conclusions. Rather, we might feel that it is wise to avoid teaching a conclusion as a fact. In many such matters (where the ultimate timing or supporting facts are not entirely clear), would it not be better to focus on the things that we DO know? For instance, we can proclaim that we should not die in sin. We can proclaim that to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Yet we can avoid the doctrinal and overly-specific schisms that tend to divide or might even be incorrect (yet heavily taught or pursued).

I know that it is the desire of each and every one of us to be pure in our speech and doctrines. None of us want to be guilty of teaching something that might not be entirely clear -- or even understandable to our limited human minds and perspective. We have the mind of Christ, but we still see [i]through a glass darkly[/i] (I Corinthians 13). I do know, however, that when Christ returns -- we will know the definitive answer to this (and all other) questions!

:-)

sermonindex Oct 23, 2008

I wrote

Thank you for reading this thread.

I am a little confused about the Bible and Judgement. Does Judgement Day happen each and every moment that someone dies? ...AND there will be the 'greater' Judgment Day when Christ returns? This would then mean that as soon as one dies that they go directly to heaven or hell...?

The reason I ask is because the pastor at the South Korean church that I attend made a statement two weeks ago that has not sat well within me.

An elder of the church died a few weeks ago and last week the pastor said that he is in heaven and we are to now enjoy a meal in his honor (we usually eat after each service, but this one was going to be 'extra special').

What I am having a problem with is not that the elder would make it to heaven or not, but whether or not a (any) pastor has that knowledge or right. Something that further bothers me is if this was someone who was not an elder, nor was saintly, but just a 'sunday Christian' whom had never received Christ and then the pastor casually said that he too 'was in heaven'.

I could go on, but I think I will only confuse myself even further. It just seems like a dangerous habit to get oneself into...proclaiming ones destination.

Am I wrong in questioning this? Am I judging?

Blessings.

then...


enid wrote:
I think perhaps we forgot this scripture.

1 Peter 3v15,'But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.'

Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.


It seems though that no one can really answer the first part of my question, but the second part I wonder more about...

...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination?

J
jalex Oct 27, 2008

my name is johnson and may the Lord bless what im gonna say. im gonna start like this; if you believe you will see the glory of God, and ever since the day we believed in the lord, God the father instantly translated us from this kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his glorious Son Jesus Christ. this is home of all the believers. believers do not pass through judgement. for they have passed from death to life,from condemnation to justification. thei debt have been taken away. they are now covered with the spare robe of righteousness of christ that he has available for all who confesses his name. that is not say any who claims Jesus in any way or act that they too will go to the bosom of abraham. it is those whom the Lord has chosen that will go to be with him. for many are called but few are chosen. God bless u.

sermonindex Oct 30, 2008

Although appreciated your response does not answer the question.

L
Lysa Oct 30, 2008

ilive4only1 2008/10/20 15:52
No you are not wrong in questioning. I do myself. Not that I speak as someone that knows a lot. I don't. But in the past eight months I have had a grandmother, aunt, uncle, and cousin to die. Every preacher seems to put them all in heaven.

Two of them I know were Christians. Not just by confession, but by the way they lived. Yet they all said they were Christians.


There is a message by Carter Conlon and in it he says when he first came to Times Square Church he was asked to do the funeral of a man who used to attend there and he was all prepared to speak on heaven. While he was sitting there the Lord showed him that if he preached that he was confuse everyone that this man worked with that was unsaved because this man professed Christianity but everyone he worked with knew how he acted.

So on the fly, Bro Carter followed the Lord's leading and preached on walking what you talk. For more men of God like that!

Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.


This is only one of a few possible answers but to delve into whether the people who died went to heaven or not when they clearly didn't live that way smacks sqarely on a person's belief system. And THAT brings in a whole other can of worms (antithesis)and they must begin to question their belief system: one possible belief system is once saved always saved.

And if a man or woman is not prepared to change their (thesis) belief system, they are not prepared to question anything regarding it.

...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination?

My humble opinion is no they don't. We have MORE of an accountability to those hearing a person's final message than to those lying in the coffin - like the Lord showed Carter (and I don't remember the title of his sermon, sorry).

C
Compton Oct 30, 2008

...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination

Could we also rephrase the question;

"...does a pastor, unless aware of some specific proof of serious hypocrisy from the deceased person' life, have cause or right to question a Christian's final destination?"

MC


sermonindex Nov 7, 2008


Compton wrote:
...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination

Could we also rephrase the question;

"...does a pastor, unless aware of some specific proof of serious hypocrisy from the deceased person' life, have cause or right to question a Christian's final destination?"

MC


Ok, I see your question and raise another. Knowing the Christian without any 'serious hypocrisy', is it Biblical (back to my original question) that all professing and true Christians go DIRECTLY to heaven once they die, and thus a pastor has the right to declare that destination?

B
boG Nov 7, 2008

Personally, I would say they go into the presence of God and Christ, but this is not the heaven we are waiting for.

It is the same with hell,

[b]Revelation 20
14.[/b]
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

There is yet a death to come for those who are reserved unto the Day of Judgment and yet a joy to come for those who are waiting upon the Day of the Lord.

[b]Revelation 6
10.[/b]
and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Thus, we are still waiting for the revelation of the new heaven and new earth.


The reason I make this distinction, to say that to be in the presence of God is not yet the heaven we are waiting for, is because this is still before the the Day when we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye (these worldly bodies shall be made heavenly bodies, such as are fit for that place) and behold the Face of God, for then we shall be like Him. Whatever that means is too great for me to muddle over with eloquence.

When we are changed at that time, then we shall enter into the new heaven and new earth that has been prepared for us and receive there the inheritance of our faith through the forgiveness of our sins in Christ Jesus -- that glorious Gospel of peace with God.


With that closing remark, I recently heard such an amazingly stated description of the difference between heaven and hell, if I may share that here:


"[b]Hell is eternity in the presence of God.
And, Heaven is eternity in the presence of God [u]with a Mediator.[/u][/b]
" -- R. A. Finlayson

sermonindex Dec 14, 2008

This week he said:

"To have a heart for the church, we must 1) pay our offering, 2) bring new people, and 3) help the church by cleaning it or some other activities." [Translated from Korean]

:-?

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