Politics and Church

We have a higher calling to be followers and
servants of Christ; we are citizens of the
kingdom of God (Not of this world) but we
must stand firm with conviction for the truth
of the gospel and for the cause of Christ.
You are right we can't affect change at the
ballot box, we can't reform society through
politics as usual. We need to order our
lives according to the principles of the
Word and walk humbly, do justly, and follow
after our Saviour!!

Hi Reformer,

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267315/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225655750&sr=8-1]The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregory Boyd[/url] might be of some help to you.

Why are we even talking about this? I looked up on Gregory Boyd and realize he is so much about controversial things and very critical of the far right. I realize I don't really know him and I'm sure he is probably doing a lot of good. He appears on secular news programs, even with people who would love to put God completely out of everything.

I understand about Jesus saying His kingdom is not of this world and how Christians should not be promoting politics as the means of making the US to be Christian. But if we are not careful it can also look like we are supporting the non Christian agenda. I mean it is best not to talk about it at all than to look like you are promoting the agenda of not wanting Christianity in government or society at all.

Let’s promote the gospel in our pulpits, on our streets, and in society as salt and light to an ungodly sick world around about us. Let’s be faithful to Jesus and not get entangled with the affairs of this life. Christians are saying many things today that Jesus wouldn’t say period. We who are spiritual cannot reason with the natural man nor can they understand the things of God. Let’s not help people who do not love Jesus, nor his ways, feel good about their hatred for God’s cause.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gregory Boyd should take his own advice and stay off of politics.

By the way, I'm confused about something. If my pick loses, am I supposed to riot, or am I supposed to loot? ;-) I can't seem to remember which one.

MC

I don't want to argue about Gregory Boyd and what he believes, that's not what this thread is about, but have any of you that are so adamantly against him and his book actually read it?

I agree... I think that even on forums like this one a lot of people get their information from the internet, which is very dangerous.

That's what rbanks just did with Gregory Boyd.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I don't want to argue about Gregory Boyd and what he believes, that's not what this thread is about, but have any of you that are so adamantly against him and his book actually read it?

Who is adamently against him? All I am saying is your going to discuss what the Foundaing Fathers believed you had better check to make sure what you're reading matches up with the truth. But most wont do that... because it takes work.

Krispy

And I believe I understand what you're saying, but Dr. Boyd doesn't really even get into the founding fathers, etc. in his book. He goes about it in a thorough and purely biblical point of view, without addressing the founders of the USA.

If you don't mind answering the question, have you read "The Myth of a Christian Nation"?

BTW, I have read some of what the founders of America had to say... I love history.

God bless ya, Krispy!

KrispyKrittr wrote:
As far as voting... you dont believe in voting, dont vote. It's that simple. But when things really go off the rails in this country the same people who claim Christians shouldnt vote will be the first ones to complain about the horrible shape the country is in... and about abortion and gay marriage... etc etc.

Of course it's bad... because you didnt do anything about it. It's like the guy who drowns in a flood and gets to heaven and asks God why... and God said "well, I sent 2 boats to you but you refused to get in!" Krispy

Amen to that. I don't want to debate politics but this is the first year I have decided to vote and I really don't think it's worldly or sinful to do so. The Bible is not clear enough on this issue. My trust is fully in Christ and I have been praying for our nation and whoever our next president is.

I do believe however, that if we as Christians were doing our part and living as the Bible says, stop dividing over man made doctrine, then we would be impacting society in such a way that they wouldn't want to vote for certain people either. But we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves over every little bit of the Bible that society sees us and says what I said before I was saved... "if that's what being a Christian is all about then I don't want it!"

It doesn't really matter who becomes president. The church is busy sleeping and until God's people wake up and humble themselves nothing will ever change.

Sorry for the rant...

Hi HomeFree89...

If you don't mind answering the question, have you read "The Myth of a Christian Nation"?

I would urge you to pick up a copy of the autobiographies of each founding father who actually penned one. Read about the life and beliefs of men like Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson in their OWN WORDS. If possible, read the letters of John Adams, George Washington, and James Madison. Read the speeches of the various founders. While someone my consider their faith to be a "myth" -- they are pretty good at trying to look like deeply and devoutly spiritual men. At the very least, they were greatly respectful to the Gospel and most even considered this to be a Christian nation (and civilization).

Sadly, the rhetoric regarding need for respecting a faith in Christ seemed so much more evident in the writings and teachings of the founders of this nation than from many of the pulpits found in today's Churches. If it was a "myth," then it is one with far more evidence than most myths that I know of. Yes, the faith might have been clouded by the practices and customs of the times or by the particular doctrinal views of various founders, but the underlying respect for the Christian faith is beyond question. I find it funny that nearly every founding father considered this a Christian nation -- yet it seems that some Christians today are the ones who seem to understand differently.

But even if the conjecture is accurate -- it was still a much safer and solemn time in world history. Sin has always existed...but it was not nearly as promoted by the government as it is in this time. Sure, the southern colonies permitted an evil like slavery. Yet most of the founders acknowledged the evil of the practice (and even most southerners realized it too -- save for the wealthy landowners and plantation operators). Yet most other sins were not promoted by government -- let alone protected by liberal judges. Homosexuality was considerd a sinful mental disorder. Abortion was a crime. Prayer was not only available in public schools -- it was the norm. In fact, most public schools taught the parables of Jesus. Presidents regularly called for solemn days of prayer and fasting. In most states, it was ILLEGAL to work on Sunday. Public blasphemy was a crime in most states. Any display of pornography resulted in swift and strict jail sentences.

If this was a myth, I would wish that we could return to it. It may not have reflected hearts that were truly in tune with Christ, but it reflected a society that at least honored Biblical truth and morality with its laws and lips. During that time, just as is true now, it is still up to each person to respect, love and meet Jesus for his or herself. I suppose that it might have been easier to avoid sin when the government itself didn't legislate it from Congress or the decisions of a few activist judges.

Tomorrow, for the first time in history, a man is running for President of the United States who happily admits that the nation is no longer a Christian nation. The difference, however, is that he is doing everything he can to keep it that way. Abortion, homosexual marriage, public protection for commercial pornographers and restrictions on Christian teaching regarding certain matters of morality -- this is all a part of his agenda. I can't help but wish that it would have been better to have lived during the era that some consider a "myth."

Of course, the battle is just beginning. The End is not yet. A light shines brightest during the darkest nights. If the Christians of America decide to stay out of the voting booths (like some liberals are hoping), then we can expect darkness to surround our families. Our failure to do what we could (via actions [like voting] that accompany our prayers and words) to prevent the darkness will affect our families, neighbors, friends -- and even the lives of millions of unborn babies (whose death sentences will be secured by the decision of a single vote on the Supreme Court). We can't legislate righteousness into the hearts of the nation, but we can certainly prevent men from getting into office who promise to legislate evil. Unlike Rome or even England at the time of the founding of this nation, our founders created a "government of consent." In other words, the common people who are elected as legislators and Presidents are chosen by the consent of fellow people. A failure to vote is, in my view, consenting to the inevitable evil that will eventually overcome this world in the End.

I just pray that the End is not yet. There are still so many people that need to hear. I love my wife and hope to have children one day. It is sad that so many are unwilling to simply say no to something that they don't agree with -- simply out of fear of the idea that sharing such a voice (via a vote) is "entangling" oneself in the affairs of this world. Yet I am married, and obviously do care about the things that are of the world -- the needs of my wife (I Corinthians 7:33). Out of this love for my wife, my future children, my parents, my family, my neighbors, fellow believers and the people of my temporary citizenship -- I choose to vote. It may be delaying the inevitable, but no one will be able to say that I didn't do what I could to save the lives of millions of unborn babies (by prayer, preaching the truth and voicing my compassion for them via my vote). No one can say that I did nothing. Faith without works, after all, is dead. I can pray all I want for the hungry, but I am still instructed to put actions to my faith and feed them. I can pray all I want for the helpless unborn babies slaughtered each year, but I can still place action to my prayers by voting and speaking against the slaughter. Yes, I can do both.

May God give us more time to reach this world. To die is certainly gain -- but for the sake of this world I choose to remain.

:-(

Need to get a few things off my chest here.

Somehow in all of this I am afraid we might lose far too much in not getting down to core, root matters.

I will have to break off into generalizations so a bit of a disclaimer: You [i]can[/i] go directly to the source to get a feel for Greg Boyd and admittedly I had never heard of him prior to this conversation. [url=http://www.gregboyd.org/]Christus Victor Ministries[/url]

It would be foolish to make too much of a comment indeed without having read this book that has been mentioned but from the reviews there is something that struck a chord and that I want to develop. So at some point a branching off into generalities as is my usual custom. (Good grief, I hope that doesn't sound too ... whatever the thought-pious- haughty ...)

Read through his take on abortion and that also prompted a great deal.

Constructs.

I think I am beyond weary with caricatures that are [i]'almost'[/i] there. Do you know what I mean? They hit on points here and there, they generally start with a premise (For instance that a "Christian Nation" is in fact a myth) and therefore they are partially true, somewhat so, as long as you are following the proscribed script and\\or the way the proposal\\premise is presented.

He is wishy-washy on abortion. I get his point in regards to politics and what that definition means, the dividing of the poll's and so forth but somehow the whole [i]essence[/i] is missed, the root issue ...

Maybe it is this knack these days for everything to become so overtly philosophical that is driving me to distraction. And here is the break into generalities, across a variety of lines.

[b]Righteousness[/b]

H6666
צדקה
tsedâqâh
[i]tsed-aw-kaw'[/i]
From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively ([i]rectitude[/i]), objectively ([i]justice[/i]), morally ([i]virtue[/i]) or figuratively ([i]prosperity[/i]): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness).

A biblical definition, now, an old fashioned one;

[b]Righteousness
RIGHTEOUSNESS[/b], n. ri'chusness.

1. Purity of heart and rectitude of life; conformity of heart and life to the divine law. Righteousness, as used in Scripture and theology, in which it is chiefly used, is nearly equivalent to holiness, comprehending holy principles and affections of heart, and conformity of life to the divine law. It includes all we call justice, honesty and virtue, with holy affections; in short, it is true religion.

2. Applied to God, the perfection or holiness of his nature; exact rectitude; faithfulness.

3. The active and passive obedience of Christ, by which the law of God is fulfilled. Dan 9.

4. Justice; equity between man and man. Luke 1.

5. The cause of our justification.

The Lord our righteousness. Jer 23.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now if I was to offer a common mans approach or stem from this, I would add that it also amounts to the [i]right thing[/i], doing the [i]right thing[/i]. The only One who has anything [i]right[/i] is God Himself. It is of Him that all that is [i]right[/i] is derived from, defined of and displayed as. First word and last word. God's 'law' is right - [i]righteousness[/i] and it means more than law as it is in fact 'law', the law of the land, the [i]'right'[/i] of His good pleasure. [i]Right[/i] and [i]true[/i]. [i]What is truth?[/i] Remember the contest?

[i]To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.[/i]

...[i] I find in him no fault at all.[/i]

And correct Pilate was. All this elementary backdrop to say just this; I believe there is far too much beating around the bush with core elements at stake.

[b]Pacifism - Violence.[/b]

I am just a little fed up with some of these notions to be blunt about it. I am just as well a bit indignant in how a caricature has been painted of our Lord and that of the Father. Since it is very timely up in our ears at the moment, I would borrow from a better man in Paul Washer and his reminder of the violence that was handed down upon the Son of Man in direct correlation to what was spoken by Isaiah;

[i]Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.[/i] Isa 53:10

Other versions have bruise as [i]crush[/i]. We far too soon forget just what sort of violence is met with here, all in regards to [i]sin[/i]. This is the element, the root, the ... bottom. It [i]pleased[/i] Him. Rap your mind around this.

I would also remind us of the entirety of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It just so happens to be a very bloody book and I do not say that in any way flippantly nor as a counter to yet an another argument. You see, this [i]is[/i] the problem, this is the [i]almost there[/i] that I mentioned earlier. There is too much of a construct that has to be dealt with on it's own terms to take in everything that [i]also[/i] applies. Bear with me ...

What about another word, seemingly lost on us -

[i][b]Revenge[/b][/i]. Or ...

[b]VENGEANCE[/b], n. venj'ance. [L. vindico.]

The infliction of pain on another, in return for an injury or offense. Such infliction, when it proceeds from malice or more resentment, and is not necessary for the purposes of justice, is revenge, and a most heinous crime. When such infliction proceeds from a mere love of justice, and the necessity of punishing offenders for the support of the laws, it is vengeance, and is warrantable and just. In this case, vengeance is a just retribution, recompense or punishment. In this latter sense the word is used in Scripture, and frequently applied to the punishments inflicted by God on sinners.

To me belongeth vengeance and recompense. Deu 32.

The Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries. Nahum 1.

With a vengeance, in familiar language, signifies with great violence or vehemence; as, to strike one with a vengeance.

Formerly, what a vengeance, was a phrase used for what emphatical.

But what a vengeance makes thee fly?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.[/i] Rom 12:19

[i]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?[/i] Rev 6:9,10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then;

[i]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/i] Rev 6:16,17

There is this to contend with.

To go away from generalities and back to a premise from the aforementioned book more than once was a mention of a "Power Over" vs a "Power Under" construct in the reviews. Well that is just fallacious in light of the mentions above. Do I need to break off into a tug of war over violence\\pacifism to court one side against the other? Again, this is what I am striking at, that these philosophies make things to comfy and easy to digest; For one and against the other and forever around in circles we go. No! It is not the point, the point is that a portrait is painted that is false, a misrepresentation.

To illustrate this, again Paul Washer. In his message he spoke about a what if scenario where his wife might be attacked by 3,5 or 10 men at a Wal-Mart and [i]you[/i] stood by watching and did [i]nothing[/i]. Not only would I go after those ten men, but I will go after [i]you[/i] he stated and that is [i]fact[/i] and that my friends is [i]righteous[/i], the [i]right[/i] thing to do. It is justice and any man that needs to have that put to or through a philosophical lens to understand it needs his head examined and his heart wretched from it's moorings for sheer cowardliness. It is inherent in our DNA lest we have been assuaged or is it massaged from our conscience from the very world we supposedly oppose or from poor preaching that confounds that which we have been unwittingly led to believe about what justice is, what true honor and ... [i]right-ness[/i] is? Jesus, stopped the stones from flying with an [i]indictment[/i] and He also made a great sweeping statement of violence being only merely restrained in;

[i]Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?[/i] Mat 26:53

For what purpose might have those angels have come? To reason with these poor misguided souls?

Am I on a tangent here? Perhaps so. But not yet finished.

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Yes, straight out of a word search from E-Sword and one that sits very much up in the thoughts:

[i]Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.[/i] Amo 5:18

Lest we forget again;

[i]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/i] 2Pe 3:10

Right and wrong. Black and white. True and false. Simplistic, elementary matters. How have they been convoluted? Abortion is wrong on any level and yet the arguments run circular around the [i]exceptions[/i] and the hypothetical, it is not just this 'issue' and it is aggravating to hear it couched in such language, that it is now 'political' well, poppycock! It's not political or dividing the poll's as Mr. Boyd puts it and I am not necessarily singling him out anymore than anyone else for that matter. [i]Of course[/i] there is always a 'exception' if that poor use of a word must be used, scripture has them just as well if we haven't noticed or is it that we have but have made these the [i]issues[/i] rather than core ... Why bring this up? On his Q&A page regarding abortion he gives a seemingly what if scenario regarding a young girl who gets pregnant and what her Christian parents would\\might due upon this revelation (disown and throw her out) and then goes on to a whole discourse on the pro-life stance, how someone comes along to rescue her, raise the baby, give her a place to stay - all well and good. But my first question is why is this not brought back to the root of the matters? The why and how of the pregnancy and for the parents ... Their seemingly let off the hook short of a sideways approach to blameworthiness. For crying out loud, the parents themselves in this scenario and one that I am quite sure plays out far often enough ... what is their shame, their self preservation, their "Christian image"? A whole rebuke is warranted for them alone.

But again, it is a the root level that the tree is not being cut down to. It is across this whole variety of matters that has me still full of so much thought that I feel I could go on for 40 pages and why I am now struggling to make the ends met here.

This idea that it is a "myth" of what this country was founded and built upon ... Fine if it is not a so called "Christian Nation" then very well, we have been over a lot of this ground of late already. At the [i]roots[/i] we have lost the foundation and some how, some way it is becoming popular to dismantle them even more and chuck the remains into the sea. It is incredulous to me that someone could in fact dismiss the early founders and go off on a rant about a 'myth' if that so called myth has to do with them in the very first instance. It is not about the abuse and misconstruing of the 'religious right' and it is not some quasi-left leaning- pacifism on the ... left. No pun intended. It is about principle and justice and righteousness, it is about honor and dignity and doing the [i]right thing[/i]. It is about [i]sin[/i] and [i]repentance[/i], do we recognize what a [i]threat[/i] that is? [i]Repentance[/i]?

[i] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/i]

"except ye repent" or in other words [u]Unless[/u]. It's a clause with a promise.

So the grand belabored point is an end and a pox on these poorly painted representatives, conjectures and constructs. We have men acting as cowards because they have no honor, no giving [i]of[/i] themselves [i]based on[/i] the very principles that this country was indeed founded upon, straight out of scriptures. Jesus is not some figment of mens imaginations that can be cornered into their vain philosophies and courted to their whims and fancies. Remember, God [i]destroyed[/i] him, punished Him who had no reason to be harmed, to put away sin, conquer death, satisfy justice and save our sorry selves.

And there is till yet vengeance to be paid.

Hello all,

I just wanted to reply to a couple different people!!

ccchhhrrriiisss said
Tomorrow, for the first time in history, a man is running for President of the United States who happily admits that the nation is no longer a Christian nation. ....

And to lovingly point out and ask ... HomeFree89 said the book by Dr. Boyd wasn't about the founding fathers, so why is this thread still on the founding fathers?

HomeFree89:
And I believe I understand what you're saying, but Dr. Boyd doesn't really even get into the founding fathers, etc. in his book. He goes about it in a thorough and purely biblical point of view, without addressing the founders of the USA.

And he asked...

but have any of you actually read it?

Dawn10379 wrote:
Amen to that. I don't want to debate politics but this is the first year I have decided to vote and I really don't think it's worldly or sinful to do so. The Bible is not clear enough on this issue. My trust is fully in Christ and I have been praying for our nation and whoever our next president is.

I do believe however, that if we as Christians were doing our part and living as the Bible says, stop dividing over man made doctrine, then we would be impacting society in such a way that they wouldn't want to vote for certain people either. But we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves over every little bit of the Bible that society sees us and says what I said before I was saved... "if that's what being a Christian is all about then I don't want it!"

It doesn't really matter who becomes president. The church is busy sleeping and until God's people wake up and humble themselves nothing will ever change.

Sorry for the rant...

Today is November 4th and to everyone here I ask,

"Who do you say that Christ is?"

I humbly submit that if He truly is the Son of God who was raised from the dead on the third day and sits at our Fathers right hand, no matter WHO gets elected today, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever!!!

And on November 5th and everyday after that, the sick will still need to be prayed for (no muslim can stop that), the dead will still need to be raised (spiritual or otherwise!) and the Gospel will still need to be lived (oh, I mean preached!) :-P

As children of the MOST HIGH, I ask "Will we be up for ALL that" if it turns out the way we don't think it should???

Great points, Brother Mike!

Hi Chris,

In reply to your post to me. I'm not going to keep trying to defend Dr. Boyd or his book in this thread. All I really wanted to do was recommend it the Reformer, not start a whole, long debate. However, I would highly encourage you to read the whole book in it's entirety. :-)

God bless!

praise the Lord family,

I want to comment,

I firmly believe the political process is for the secular, I am not at all stating that " a" person shouldn't be apart of it, but what i am saying is that we have become to radical in its process.

We are a people with another home/ destination in mind, and our consummation with this process is revealing to actually how much our beings are stuck on this side of heaven, and how we lack the vision to see God.

We remain stuck on McCain/ Palin and or Obama/ Biden! Wow, how shallow we can be as onward christian soldiers for a very great Lord,

Please all, bear with me, I am a revivalist and an old time preacher, that believe in straight talk, but I am not here to kill or viciously offend unless the moment deems it, but that isn't me in personality.

Nevertheless, We have need of the great God, I have always been careful or concerned about "blogging or forum-ing for Jesus", but we have lost the majesty and glory of God, as Leonard Ravenhill stated, and it doesn't appear to be anywhere in site at this moment, as far as I can see.

I blame this on our, that is, the Church's love for the world.

I love you all Saints, but we have a unidentified-identified love for the world.