A different political action

Hi everyone,

I was thinking tonight and wondering to myself,

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers. And to pray for true unity and reconciliation among us, and for forgiveness for the Chruch in America for it's involvement in these things.

I realise that many of us may be angry with political liberals for not agreeing to our political agenda.

Perhaps we could show humility in this by asking them to do something like this, by showing them humility in asking them to help us to repent.

I know sometimes my thinking is not perfect (lol) but instead of petitioning congress and president elect, or and other secular body, let the christian church petition the Lord of glory to act on His own behalf because of our petitions to turn the hearts of these people to Himself that e might receive glory and that we might live peaceable lives. It is easiest to picture our focus to be pointed to that which is seen, but if we focus on our Heavenly Father, and let Him know our our needs and concerns, He will act miraculously on our behalf. I met a friend at WalMart last night and was telling her that God has set up prompts for me to pray. Obama and government is when I see gas prices. Because I notice gas prices, but I don't want them to be my focus, I take it as an opportunity to pray fro our leaders who God placed in authority over me. The bottom line is that if the church can unify to petition government, why don't we lock arms and seek God? With Love, Barry

Hi Barry! Thank you for your response and thoughts here and I agree with you in petitioning God together!

"The bottom line is that if the church can unify to petition government, why don't we lock arms and seek God?"

I agree brother. But maybe here, we could do both?

I think a petition like this would be appropriate for us and if I could I would like to share why with you and others.

Because the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred were committed in a country like ours, which has had the Bible and the Gospel, and a visible Christian Church, so mingled within the different aspects of it's society, because these horrible evils were comitted among a people like that, over hundreds of years, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us, for Christians, and especially white Christians living in America, if we, being willing today to publicly confess and acknowledge these evils done against those who were black, perhaps many also themselves Christians, if we being willing to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours, and wanting to express that to those our brothers and sisters who may yet be alive today themselves having experienced those things and living with a present memory of them, and to not only them but to all other citizens of this country, who for whatever reason may be biased against the testimony of the Christian Church or hold against us as a grievance these sins of the past both distant and not so long ago, that taking such an opportunity as is now, I think it would be entirely appropriate for us to ask our Government officials to call upon us and others willing, as a nation, to humble ourselves in acknowledgement of these things, and in repentence for them, and in seeking God to heal our land and bring true harmony and peace and equity between the peoples of this land and a thourough healing of heart and forgiveness of all grievances and wrongs and a restoration of trust between them.

I think it would be appropriate,

with love,

Chris

I have serious problem with this concept.

Problem #1: what is the motive? Reasons this is a problem to me: Racial hatred today is being fermented by leaders who have a political stake in keeping the 'slavery issue' alive. I live in the heart of Dixie and I know of no white person who thinks slavery was right, no one. If there were any they have long since been dead. Brother, the racial hatred you see today is coming from the people of color. Rev. Jeremiah Wright is the poster boy for this hatred. People who hate have a heart problem that only God can fix.

Problem #2: Since when are the children responsible for the sins of their ancestors?
Reasons this is a problem to me: Each man is responsible for his own sin and not the sins of his ancestors. Ezekiel 18: 19-22; Jeremiah 31: 30.

A few years ago the Reformed church in Switzerland asked modern descendants of Anabaptists to come to a meeting where they wanted to make a public apology for the persecution their ancestors afflicted upon them. The attendees felt these people were very sincere and honest with their confession. However, since then, people are questioning the motives: was it a ploy to rope modern, conservative Anabaptists into the ecumenical movement? and the critics argue that their ancestors would have been appalled with this meeting. God remains the judge, but I am wary of these public confessions.

Problem #3: Who is calling for this petition?
Reasons this is a problem: not everyone had an ancestor who was a slave owner. Mine never did. And I would guess most southern whites didn't either. (Only 15% of whites in MS were slave owners. And many were good to their slaves.) Will you also ask the Choctaws to participate in this time of confession? Local Choctaws also owned slaves and they are Indians. Not many but they existed.

Another thing: this sounds so political, politics wrapped in religious garb - it scares me. If you are interested in promoting racial harmony, go make friends with people of color -do it one at a time. Now that will be enduring - it is what we do in our community.

Many whites here in our part of the south count among their friends people of color. They will eat together is restaurants, hug each other after a long absence, even in public. Enjoy each other, laugh together...the hatred you are talking about is likely more prevalent in the north then in the south.

This is my take on this issue...if you decide to do this, don't expect everyone to be excited about it and in pursuing it you could drive wedges deeper. Would people feel compelled to participate for political reasons, to make them look good to blacks when in their heart they have serious theological reasons to not do so? You better think seriously and seek the LORD's leading before trying it.

My opinion...

ginnyrose

PS: Before you get bent out of shape for a southern woman's insight on this matter, it may be of interest for you to know I am a transplanted Yankee! I know the hearts, feelings of people in the north - that is where I was raised and still visit occasionally.

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers.

Which doesn't mean we purposefully rebel or disassociate ourselves from any kind of secular legislature: it just means we put things in their proper perspective according to the Word of God and lifestyle example of Jesus Christ, Paul the Apostle and the early church. We shouldn't really expect to have a favor with the government and/or rulers and demogogues of secular societies which they never had. Let us enjoy the peace God has granted us up to this point, but to put demands upon the government and have our expectations dashed when it isn't fulfilled, to me, demonstrates how we've taken an inch by grace and now want the mile by demand. Brethren, I fear the inevitable is certainly coming, where we, as the body of believers in North America will soon experience the wholesale reality of the true cost of being called by God. Some of us will shockingly discover that the political staff we're accustomed to lean on for support now pierces our hand and draws blood.

Hi Ginnyrose! I'd like to try to respond to some of the concerns you raised. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.

what is the motive?

I would hope that it could be something similar to what I suggested before

"...to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours"

Since when are the children responsible for the sins of their ancestors?

I don't see this as being an issue of responsibility for what was done, but rather as as an opportunity for the professing Church in America to acknowledge in very clear and unambigous language the great evil that it was for such things to be done in the presence of a 'Christian people'.

Who is calling for this petition?Reasons this is a problem: not everyone had an ancestor who was a slave owner.

The things done against black people in this country go way beyond the era of slavery and into recent decades. As to who would be calling for it, I guess it would be those who are sorry that it happened and want to express that to all, and especially those still living with the wounds of it.

Will you also ask the Choctaws to participate in this time of confession? Local Choctaws also owned slaves and they are Indians. Not many but they existed.

Maybe that would be a good idea also, for another day? But Ginnyrose, what is the point here? Besides what evil has been done to other people, we are here talking about black people right now, who were stolen from their lands and forced to work as slaves(by the way, the penalty for manstealing was death under the law of Moses). And who were treated as subhuman beings for decades afterwards. And what, this should be dismissed because, as you put it

...many were good to their slaves

What???

What????

this sounds so political, politics wrapped in religious garb - it scares me.

The only thing political about it would be asking the Government to help in making(EDIT removed 'it' to correct grammer) the desire for such a thing a matter of public interest and national attention. The Mayor of New York City gave a proclamation for the Prayer In the Square Event held this year.

If you are interested in promoting racial harmony, go make friends with people of color -do it one at a time.

I have. I do. I live with one. She's my wife.

Would people feel compelled to participate for political reasons, to make them look good to blacks when in their heart they have serious theological reasons to not do so?

Ginny, I'm not sure what theological reason you are talking about here?

The Lord Jesus said that if our brother has anything against us, that we should go and be reconciled to him. And likewise, that if we have anything against our brother, we should go and tell him.

I think it is strange that we should find the concept of a public demonstration of our desire to be reconciled to one another and to heal the wounds of our nation's past, o difficult and so full of problems, to people with a simple heart.

Hi brother Paul,

Brother Paul, about this,

"Did the early church lobby Rome to implement a day of fasting, prayer and repentance for the sins and atrocities of the Senate?"

The early Church did not live under the rule of a government whose institutions and public life were so mingled with the Bible and a profession of the Christian faith.

I thought recently about the Dalits in India who I have read have also been terribly oppressed in their country for centuries.

I wondered what it would be like for them, if India had been so much described as a Christian nation, and Gospel for Asia was coming to them like they are now with the Gospel.

Hi again everyone.

Ginnyrose, I'm sorry but I thought to respond to one more thing from your response, for the sake of clarity.

About this,

I live in the heart of Dixie and I know of no white person who thinks slavery was right, no one.

I' don't want to suggest that we should come together to declare that forced slavery and racial hatred were 'not right'.

I mean to suggest that we come together and delcare that forced slavery and all of the multipled acts of racial hatred that accompanied it were grotesque and monstrous.

Greetings Chris

I would not be able to sign this kind of petition, I agree with what Ginnyrose shared here. I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie. Also if you going to do this over slavery then what about asking for forgiveness from the Indains, this was there home before we came here and terrible, horrible acts happened to them as well. And what about the Hispanic community, they lived in California, Arizonia, New Mexico, Texas, ect, before we came and took it from them???? How many petition should we have and when does it all end? Mans evil and hatred toward man will only end when those that are living in rebellion to God repent and seek His kingdom, not with petitions. Just my heart on this....

God Bless
MJ

Hi MaryJane,

"I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie."

Right. But again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b].

Again, was suggesting this for those who[i]... being willing to express with one voice and one heart our deep sorrow and regret that such could have ever happened in a land such as ours[/i]

Also,

"...if you going to do this over slavery then what about asking for forgiveness from the Indains, this was there home before we came here and terrible, horrible acts happened to them as well."

Right. But we are not talking about those things right now. And maybe it would be appropriate to do something in that regard also. But I do not understand this notion that because other evils were committed in this country we should ignore them all or fail to acknowledge with greif and shame the responsibility of the Church in this history?

What's more, I think the issue of forced slavery(African peoples stolen from their lands and forced to work as slaves) and the [b]multitudes[/b] of acts of racial hatred that have persisted for centuries against them, right up untill present decades, is worth making special considerations of.

"How many petition should we have and when does it all end?"

My suggestion was to start with one.

"Mans evil and hatred toward man will only end when those that are living in rebellion to God repent and seek His kingdom, not with petitions."

Agreed, and I want to be clear I didn't suggest the idea of a petition to somehow gain political leverage to right a wrong. The idea in my mind is that such proclimation would invite more people to take [b]our desire[/b] to express our sadness over what happened, seriously.

Again, this suggestion isn't for people who don't care about what happened. Just those that do. And who would want to express that to others.

Thanks MaryJane.

Greetings Chris

I guess my only issue with you is this statement that you wrote...

Again, this suggestion isn't for people who don't care about what happened. Just those that do. And who would want to express that to others.

......
Just because i do not agree with your idea of a petition does not mean that I do not care about the sin or hurt in the world. I care very much, but I do not feel convicted to sign a petitions. I believe strongly in help, caring for and demonstrating the love of Christ daily as Father gives provision with others is what His will is for me to do.

Anyway if this is Fathers leading for you then you should pursue it....No matter what at the end of the day let us agree that Jesus be lifted up and glorified in our actions and that what we do, we do to further His kingdom:-)

God Bless you Chris and your family
MJ

For what it is worth, I have repented for the deeds of my ancestors - it was something that the Lord led me to do.

I am Dutch - all of my grandparents came over to the United States on the boat from Holland. It was not too many years ago that I found out that it was the Dutch people that were responsible for much of the persecution of the black people in Africa, and that they were heavily involved in the slave trade - this information coming to me after many years of trying to figure out just what it was that my family had against black people.

When I found out what had happened, I was angry because it made no sense. First you persecute a people, then you steal them, and then you treat them as if THEY have done something wrong.

It is my opinion that many of the Dutch people know that they (the Dutch people) have done wrong - but there are not many that I know of that would ever admit it. In fact, growing up, I was always told that "we" were special - that "we" did not need to follow the rules. From what I have heard, anyone that tried to move to town that were not of "our kind" were driven out.

After the Lord got a hold of me, He had me repent of the things that my people had done. It was so very cleansing - taking away the anger and the bitterness - uprooting any bad seeds that were sown as a result of growing up amongst this hatred.

Earlier this year, after reading something about the diamond industry, I put it all together - De Beers - diamonds - Africa. They did it all for money.

Hi again everyone,

Heartsong, thank you for sharing with us some of your own heart and past. Thank you.

MaryJane,

"I believe strongly in help, caring for and demonstrating the love of Christ daily as Father gives provision with others is what His will is for me to do."

You're right. I think my comment before that you mentioned was wrong and I shouldn't have wrote it, especially the way I did. Thank you!

As I was thinking about this last night, I remembered a recording I listend to about evangelisim and the man asked the audience two questions: one, if they cared about the those who were lost and two, if they cared enough to do something about it.

I hope that, in the days and weeks ahead, I can, with the wisdom and inspiration and leading of God, find some ways, even if small, to say and to show those who may still live with the scars and questions of the racial hatred of the past, that I care also. And that I'm very sorry for what was done. And that I rejoice to see the day when a man that is black has reached the highest office in this land. For that I am so happy.

Thank you MaryJane for the blessings and may God heap them upon you also,

God's deep love be with you all,

Chris

Chris,

I just do not get it - this thing of apologizing for something you are not responsible for. I do not read where Jesus taught it, nor the apostles. Somehow, I sense there must be something else afoot here which I have a problem identifying on one hand and on the other it seems obvious...if that makes any sense.

While you are at it, will you then invite the black Africans to participate - like you did us here?- in your apology? You see the slave trade could not have been successful without the local blacks (in Africa) assisting in this traffic. FYI, many of the people purchased were POWs that happened when there was fighting amongst the tribes in Africa and there were some who then saw a way to make money, so off to the slave traders they went.

Brother, this thing gets real messy once you start apologizing for behaviours you are not responsible for...not only is it not Biblical, it will get you so wrapped up in social issues that it will divert you from your calling to follow Christ. Chris, I hate to say it but as long as there will be people - on this side of eternity - there will always be classes of people who will feel like they are being taken advantage of, that they are the victims of injustice. We cannot go back and undo another person's wrong. But what we can do today is love people regardless of social, ethnic, religion or economic situations. We are commanded to love our neighbor and that is the person close to where I am. Make a difference there. Can't fix the past or the whole world!

My take on this issue. And I have discussed this with my husband as well, and we both agree....

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Sorry to jump into this discussion so abruptly but I just wanted to add some thoughts here.

If we do not hesitate to seek God for mercy on behalf of our nation, I don't see why it would be inappropriate for us to also humble ourselves before God for national sins.

I believe there are several examples from Scripture we could look at, the one that comes to mind first is the prayer of Daniel in chapter 9. Daniel confessed the sins of a nation before God being a part of that nation; and since Daniel knows his God intimately and he knows that God hears his cries, he is in the position to seek and confidently expect that mercy will be given.

In Christ,

Ron

Hi again everyone,

Ginnyrose,

"I just do not get it - this thing of apologizing for something you are not responsible for."

Ginny, I think I addresed this in response to MaryJane. I'll cut and paste that here again, alright? Her question is in qoutes...

"I feel for me to sign a document and ask for forgiveness of a sin that I did not commit would be a lie."

Right. But again, I don't think we would be asking for forgiveness as individuals, but on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole, [b]as it has been represented in America in the past[/b].

I do think there is a Biblical example for this to consider also,

"Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them. And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers."

- Nehemiah 9:1-2(KJV)

[i]...and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers[/i]

See the verses that follow also.

What has made me think of this issue on more than one occasion is the question and I mean it as a question because I do not know, but I wonder if the Church in America has ever with any sort of unified voice confessed this evil that was done? And said that it was a sin to have happened?

It seems to me like things have moved along without this ever happening?

Also, about this

"While you are at it, will you then invite the black Africans to participate - like you did us here?- in your apology? You see the slave trade could not have been successful without the local blacks (in Africa) assisting in this traffic. FYI, many of the people purchased were POWs that happened when there was fighting amongst the tribes in Africa and there were some who then saw a way to make money, so off to the slave traders they went."

I think anyone that felt sorrow that it happened could participate? Why not?

But, your question, and the way you phrased it here, particularly with the refrence to other people being involved besides the white slave traders, it strike me sort of odd? It almost seems as though we're trying to blow smoke over the issue so as to obfuscate the guilt of those who bought slaves and forced them to work for them?

Spreading the blame around makes it look better for everybody.

But, John Newton must have felt something of remorse for what he did, when he wrote the words to Amazing Grace.

"...there will always be classes of people who will feel like they are being taken advantage of, that they are the victims of injustice."

But Ginnyrose, they were victims of terrible injustice. And not only them, but their 'free' descendents.

I thought today of how the Lord Jesus said that whoever would give a disciple [b]a cold cup of water[/b] in His name would not loose their reward.

Striking to consider that a young black girl who was a Christian wouldn't have been allowed to even drink from the same water fountain as a girl that was white. In such a nation as ours.

Striking, would you agree?

Hi everyone.

I have been thinking more about this issue over the past couple of days and as I have I've been thinking about about the idea of forced slavery and racial hatred in comparison with the Gospel and commands of Christ. Some things have stood out to me.

I was reminded how, when the children of Israel repented and confessed their sins and the sins of their fathers in Nehemiah chapter 9, it says they devouted a 4th part of the day to the reading of the Law.

Before I share this, I recieved an email tonight from my brother-in-law. It was about a news story where a store in Kansas City had printed a racial slur on a reciept they gave to one of their customers that returned an item. I didn't believe it until I followed the link and watched the story on-line.

[b]Some contradictions of forced slavery and racial hatred against the Gospel and commands of Christ[/b]

Instead of carrying anothers burden an extra mile, forcing them to carry yours their whole life.

Instead of giving and asking nothing in return, taking everything and giving nothing in return.

Instead of being those blessed by being those that mourned, making others to mourn.

Instead of leaving houses and lands and family for the sake of the Gospel, taking men and women from their families and lands for your own sake.

Instead of being great by being another's servant, making yourself great by making others your slave.

Instead of taking the Gospel into all the world and making disciples of the nations, you went into the nations and made slaves.

Instead of giving a cold cup of water to a black person that was a disciple, forbiding them from drinking from your water fountain.

Instead of breaking the Holy bread of Communion with black brothers and sisters, forbiding them from eating in your resturaunts.

Not just calling your brother a fool, but worse than that, less than human.

A man arrayed in purple, feasting sumptuously, with not only Lazarus, but his whole family living in shack outside his house, and they being left to clean their own sores and wounds which you gave them by your whip. And for food they were given pigs feet and intestines.

The Jews, as I understood it, looked upon the Samaritans as a half-breed and had no contact with them. When the Lord Jesus was asked who our neighbor was, he told the story of the 'good samaritan'. What then of segregation of race by law?

Reading in Revelation 18:13 that one of the items of merchandise sold with Mystery Babylon was the souls of men.

I think the most striking thought that occurred to me, was the idea of a man that professed to have the same Spirit as the One that qouted Isaiah 61:1 and applied it to Himself, to claim to be united to Him and refuse to share the Gospel with those they were enslaving.(Edit: I don't know if this was ever the actuall case or not, but I thought that since slaves were not allowed to read that it could have been true? someone can correct me if I'm wrong here(thanks))

[i]Edited to correct spelling errors[/i]

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,

I was thinking tonight and wondering to myself,

I wonder what would happen if the Christian Church in America got together and petitioned Congress and the newly elected President, to delcare a National Day of Prayer, Fasting, and Repentance for the sins of forced slavery and racial hatred commited by our fathers. And to pray for true unity and reconciliation among us, and for forgiveness for the Chruch in America for it's involvement in these things.

What Christian church in America are you talking about? The true Christian church is not of this world. The many different organizations in America that call themselves Christians are very much divided. Who would be the Leader of this national day of prayer? Would Jesus really be a part of something that is of this world?

All true Christians (born again) are new creatures in Christ and their old man is forever crucified with Christ. Those who have been crucified in Christ have been blood washed and forgiven. Those who sinned against God and their fellowman, and have already died never receiving Christ as their Savior, will pay for their own sins.

The true Christian Church is separate from this world and the Lord Jesus will not organize His Church with the unregenerate. Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church and I just don’t see Him petitioning Congress and the newly elected president for any kind of prayer of apology. Jesus will have a glorious church and He will have nothing to do with any kind of apology. Each individual will have to give an account for his own sins, only those who have been to the cross have been reconciled to God and forgiven.

Most of the people who have been involved in these sins are dead and if they didn’t repent before they died then I’m afraid it is too late. I don’t believe in being baptized for the dead. I don’t believe God will forgive someone else if I repent for them. Jesus is the only one who died for the whole world and everyone is going to have to go to Him personally. I don’t believe I can make restitution for someone else’s wrong. They are to make restitution for their own wrong.

I for one am not ashamed of Jesus Christ, and by his grace, I will not drag Him into something that would bring reproach to His most excellent name. Jesus Christ had nothing to do with any wrong doing, never has and never will!

Jesus is definitely not a politician!!!

Hi rbanks, did you read the entire thread before you posted here?

If not, I would ask that you could do that and see if you still have the same questions that you asked.

Thank you,

Chris