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Apostolic Christianity and the Transfer of Wealth

sermonindex Jul 18, 2004

I personally when I came across this couldn't believe what I am seeing. This is utterly false and I cannot believe Christians who are truly born of the Spirit of God can even wink at this to think its truth. This articles comes from the Elijah List where its boasted "Discover Daily What God's Prophets and Prophetic People Are Saying!" I am quite saddened by this. Just so people realize this is a large section of people who are ingulfed in these type of teachings from so called prophets... surely the church is in darkness in our day.---"The Great Transfer of Wealth: Are You Ready?"by C. Peter WagnerIt has been a while since I have received as much thoughtful response to a Global Prayer News article as I did to "The Great Transfer of Wealth: Are You Ready?" This has turned out to be such a hot button in the Body of Christ that I decided to take the matter a bit farther.To remind you, I brought up the fact that since 1992 we have been hearing from God, through respected prophets, that He desires to release great amounts of wealth to His people for the advance of His kingdom, namely through evangelism, church planting, caring for the poor, and transforming society. Why, then, hasn’t it happened as yet? My answer is that first God was probably waiting until the government of the church got into place on the foundation of apostles and prophets, which did occur beginning in 2001. Secondly, He is probably waiting until the proper strategy to handle these funds is functional. This is only beginning to happen.I postulated that there are four essential links in the chain of wealth-transference:Providers, Managers, Distributors, Field Marshalls.The major holdup, in my analysis of the situation, is that second link of "managers."2 Ways "Providers" Will Be UsedThe "providers" are there. There are two ways that the providers will be used to supply the money that God is releasing. Some of them, whether believers or unbelievers, already have the money in huge quantities. This will be delivered by what could be called "supernatural transference."A biblical example would be Israel in Egypt. God released huge amounts of wealth from the pagan Egyptians to His people. They did not earn this money from making bricks without straw. It was a supernatural transference. On the other hand, the second way that God will use some providers is to give them what could be called "power to get wealth." This is like making bricks for a profit, but it would more likely take the form of a gold mine or a technological breakthrough or a patent on a lifesaving drug. The Bible says that "[God] gives you power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18) and "The Lord your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand" (Deut. 15:10). People who are now making money will go to new levels, through the power of God, that they have not even imagined!"Distributors" and "Field Marshals"The "field marshals" are also there. One of my apostle friends, for example, is currently planting between five and ten new churches per day! No one has to teach him how to use money to spread the gospel. Field marshals like this are now in place all over the world.I believe that the "distributors" are in place, but they have not yet been recognized as such because they will only go into action once the funds are available. Undoubtedly, many apostles who are members of the International Coalition of Apostles will be among them. There will, of course, be some overlap between distributors and field marshals as there is between all the links on the chain.The Missing LinkWhich leaves us with "managers." This is the missing link. Why would God release huge amounts of resources that could go down a black hole? Few distributors or field marshals, who for the most part would be nuclear church apostles, would have the business skills to receive the funds and handle them in such a way that they would not all be used at once, but that they would provide a constant stream of revenue for advancing the kingdom. Unquestionably these kinds of skillful managers do exist within the Body of Christ, but they are not yet part of the chain, strategically connected to distributors and field marshals.Let me give you a concrete illustration. Not long ago, a friend of mine, Dan Carless, who is a successful Colorado Springs real estate developer, told me that he was a consultant for the board of directors for Every Home for Christ. He once posed a hypothetical question to its president, Dick Eastman. He said, "Dick, would you rather have me give you $1 million or $250,000 per year?" Dick, of course, replied that he wanted both, but that was not an option. Dick could have used $1 million very easily because he is one of the most qualified members of the "distributors" link that I know, in direct touch with numbers of effective field marshals. But the wise choice was $250,000 per year because in four years he would have the $1 million, and in four more he would have $2 million to help fulfill the Great Commission of making disciples of all nations.If this were to become a reality, Dan Carless would be functioning as a classic "manager," because he would use his $1 million to make 25% per year and give the proceeds to Every Home for Christ. If this became the rule, rather than the exception, it could open the door toward an entirely new way of funding ministries such as Every Home for Christ or Global Harvest Ministries.Donor-Based to Revenue-BasedI think it will become the rule, once the chain is in place. Currently most ministries are financed by the providers donating directly to the distributors or field marshals without going through the managers. This "donor-based" system of financing requires the leaders of the ministries constantly to make appeals for new donations and limiting their activities to the responses to each appeal. Some will spend up to 25% of their income in generating new donations.However, once the managers (who will be mostly workplace apostles rather than nuclear church apostles) have taken their God-assigned place, ministries will be able to move from "donor-based" financing to "revenue-based" financing. This, I think, is the wave of the future, a new wineskin for financing the Great Commission.One of my friends, Joseph Thompson (who co-edited with me our exciting new book Out of Africa), is actually experimenting with this for his ministry, Light the Nations. I recently received an appeal letter from him, not for a donation to his ministry cash flow, but rather to the "Corban Fund" over which he has appointed a manager who will invest the capital and turn over only the proceeds for Light the Nations cash flow. This letter motivated me to donate, as over against a dozen or so other appeal letters I received from friends the same week asking for a traditional contribution.My message? Managers, rise up, get connected, and let’s get God’s transfer of wealth moving!

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ZekeO Jul 18, 2004

sermonindex wrote:This is utterly false and I cannot believe Christians who are truly born of the Spirit of God can even wink at this to think its truth.I must admit when I first read it, I was also quite shocked considering who wrote it. I say that because even though I am not very familar with Mr Wagners work he has been very influential in the prayer networks and motivating prayer into the 10-40 window. Even though I don't agree with some of the things he has written about prayer, there is some truth in it. So it is fascinating to read this stuff. :-? Zeke

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jouko Jul 18, 2004

No offense meant, but how does this differ from the "heated" discussion about health and wealth ?It must be me but this to me sounds exactly like it. Pardon my ignorance, but the only time I've heard 10-40 is when police speak to each others, what is it in this case ?Here's an article that might shed some light on the funds transfers etc. It just blows my mind how easy the thinking and ways of the world is creeping into the minds of christians and the church who should be able to discern these things.http://www.discernment-ministries.com/Purpose_Driven.pdfWe are supposed to discern and not to swallow and wallow in the ways of the world.jouko

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crsschk Jul 19, 2004

Thanks Jouko,I was having some problems with that link in the pdf. format, here is another link to the same article:The Pied Pipers of PurposeGreat site there (from your original link)http://www.discernment-ministries.com/Home.htm

sermonindex Jul 19, 2004

I just got up on the site a tremendous video 3 hours long of 2 meeting with Jackie Pullinger and the team from hong kong, she speaks on ministering to the poor, its a great contrast to the madness that is being thought and lived out by so called annointed men. I almost weeped at certain points of this video, its truly worth watching you wont be the same again!! Ministry to the poor/Being set free (video) ;-)

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Agent001 Jul 19, 2004

Hi all,I am trying to understand what some seems to think is so obviously scandalous about the article in the first post. Can we be a little more specific? And how does this thread fit into the "Church History" section?Sam

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philologos Jul 20, 2004

And how does this thread fit into the "Church History" section?Its a stretch but maybe 'contemporary history'? or even 'the sooner its history the better'? ;-)

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crsschk Jul 20, 2004

Ron.. 'the sooner its history the better'Touche'!! :-)

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crsschk Jul 20, 2004

Hi Sam, I am trying to understand what some seems to think is so obviously scandalous about the article in the first post. Can we be a little more specific?Amongst a number of things, this stood out:International Coalition of ApostlesIs this a subset of Chrysler, a take off on Lee Iacocca? The ICOA...Thought the linked article from Jouko was really informative in what under girds some of these modern business and social philosophy's that have crept into the church.

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ZekeO Jul 25, 2004

Agent001 wrote:I am trying to understand what some seems to think is so obviously scandalous about the article in the first post. Can we be a little more specific? Its just that it has so many terms that just don't occur in the bible. They are all very nice terms and ideas. The pattern in the bible is that properties were sold and brought to the Apostles feet and thats that(Acts 4:34,35). To say that this is what God is waiting for in terms of Apostolic thrust into the nations is well, where is it in the NT? The terms sound like something from Harvard or Yale, not from bible.ZekeO

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sdb Jul 28, 2004

God help us, please forgive my directness but this kind of stuff just nauseates me and has no business even being placed in print....I can never stress enough that its "NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!" never was never will be---it just makes me wanna scream....it amazes me the complexity that man will assume it trying to generate Gods kingdom (via there own greed) and downright misunderstanding of the word of God--I bet Paul is forever saying "what was I thinking" when I wrote that statement about the five fold ministry ---how do we put the breaks on this nonsense....how do we do it? :-(

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KeithLaMothe Jul 28, 2004

If and when general persecution comes, I think this sort of stuff will dry up right quick.Possibly, though, the persecution will only be against "fundamentalist" (that is, Biblical) Christians that refuse to fit a certain PC mold, so those who are truly only in it for the money (not all the Prosperity types, but some of them) will need only remove the offending parts from their message and the world would let them merrily upon their money-making way.If someone's really all that interested in making a lot of money, I'd suggest the business world, Christianity isn't really for you.As for the article, my problem with it would be the utter lack of Biblical support for the supplier-manager-distributor-whatever scheme, even the one passage cited for support doesn't fit that (the Israelites simply took a bunch of stuff with them, not a lot of sophistication involved).

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jouko Jul 28, 2004

While sitting and recording old Finnish preaching I've heard a lot of very very good preaching but then reading from 2 Pet 2:1- it really hit me, no matter what preaching or no matter what warning we read, listen to or write nothing but nothing "beats" the Word of God when it comes to warn about falsities. 2Pe 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. The words, "arose false prophets" was okay but then "as among you also there shall be false teachers". I don't know how many times I've read this chapter but it has never hit me as much as last night, it truly is the false teachers time.Reading more in that chapter it brings out what kind of heresy there will be among "you". It makes for very interesting reading if you don't see what it is that is wrong among the people that teach the teaching we are discussing and may I add, all the money preaching.Be discerning.jouko

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ZekeO Jul 28, 2004

jouko wrote:It makes for very interesting reading if you don't see what it is that is wrong among the people that teach the teaching we are discussing and may I add, all the money preaching.Be discerning.I think what is really grieving is that I don't believe that this is done with the intention to mislead, or preach another gospel. In opening up the scriptures for truth and guidance how easy it must be to get caught up in fancy systems and formulas. To explain why something is not happening(which in this case is wealth transfer) lets teach on why it is not happening. Pulling one verse from the bible and building a whole modus operandi.When the truth seems to have been assimalated there must always be something that catches our attention and keeps us interested. Little realising that the one thing to 'keep us interested' is the most beautiful being in the universe, Jesus.More of a 'deeper understanding of the ways of God'. There must be some reason why we are not fulfilling the great commission?;-) The leaders of Gods flock will have to give a huge account for what they have let into the church. I wonder if there is accountability at this level? I mean accountability, not just on moral and (sorry) financial level, but in the area of truth. Many well meaning church leaders who hold his opinion dear, will believe that this is what the Lord is saying to his church. I don't know what people do when they read such things, do they get all frantic and condemned at their short comings of not being a good supplier, manager, whatever?If someone didn't know any better, that article may be the only prophetic voice that he hears for him or for his church. Sobering stuff!Zeke

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Agent001 Jul 30, 2004

Hi all,I just want attention focussed on the core idea of the original article (see first post). The idea is that when a financial gift is given to a Christian ministry, rather than use it towards the cash flow of the organisation, it is put into a fund managed by Christians. Through investments of these funds, revenue is generated, which in turn will be provided to the organisation.I have known a well-off, but devoted, Christian who had instructed in his will to designate a large portion of his inheritance to be passed on to a special fund, which through its revenue finances several ministries that God has placed in his heart. I find his heart admirable.Of course, the Bible did not provide specific instructions to do (or not to do) so. Nevertheless, I fail to see anything inherently evil in this practice (as long as the finances are dealt with properly and with transparency)?

sermonindex Jul 30, 2004

If and when general persecution comes, I think this sort of stuff will dry up right quick. If someone's really all that interested in making a lot of money, I'd suggest the business world, Christianity isn't really for you.Brother Keith I couldn't have said it better myself, I think the church of Jesus Christ in North America needs persecution! another slant on that is that we are not being persecuted because we are not living godly in Christ Jesus. Holiness and living as another breed of men, heavenly minded men of God in this world.2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.I love the promises of God in the bible some man said there are over 7000 direct promises we can claim as blood bought children of God, how about this one above? 'shall suffer persecution' but notice the condition of the promise 'that will live godly'. EVERY promise of God has a condition.Of course, the Bible did not provide specific instructions to do (or not to do) so. Nevertheless, I fail to see anything inherently evil in this practice (as long as the finances are dealt with properly and with transparency)?"I brought up the fact that since 1992 we have been hearing from God, through respected prophets, that He desires to release great amounts of wealth to His people for the advance of His kingdom" - Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?Acts 3:3-6 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.government of the church got into place on the foundation of apostles and prophets, which did occur beginning in 2001This man is speaking of new apostles and prophets being setup across the world and having reign over certain localities and regions. This charismatic prophetic government that is being instituted I would say has nothing to do with God ordaination, these are men that are claimed authority on their own. The Church is so decieved that we cannot even realize what is happening and many are being deluded into this new form of Church government under the guise of spirit-filled Christianity.One of my apostle friendsWhere are the apostles I don't see them? Do you see anyone with the fervor and heart-ache spirituality as the Aposle Paul or Apostle James who desperatly are trying to defend the church and are burdened as in Child-birth for the entire body of Christ?This whole article is spoken with prophetic spiritual authority and is said to have come from God, he uses terms and ideals that have been prophesied by so called prophets and set in place, The biblical example is very out of place and really there is no other scriptural support in any of his article describing this increase of mammon in the hands of Christians. It seems inticing and very ear tingling to hear some of the stories and examples he uses but really brother and sisters we cannot just want what seems good dare I say to the flesh but we need to seek after Gods will and His ways even as unappealing it may seem to the flesh and desires. The Apostle Paul would label this all as false and these Apostles and Prophets as False.

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RobertW Jul 30, 2004

"I brought up the fact that since 1992 we have been hearing from God, through respected prophets, that He desires to release great amounts of wealth to His people for the advance of His kingdom" - Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?The Gospel has always spread the fastest under great persecution. The Church has also been purified over the centuries with great persecution. Under the unbelieving Jews, Nero, and then the ten great persecutions beginning with Domition and ending with Diocletion. Then there were the Lollards and the Lollard pit and a host of other times of persecution. In one of the towers in London as one Christian was chained up and awaiting persecution or execution they scratched the words, ""Jhesus est amor meus," ("hay-soos-est-ahmore-meoss" or simply "Jesus is my love") on the wall. That was not birthed in the comfortable western Church- but under great distress of mind and body. As the proverb goes, a friend is born out of adversity- and sometimes our friendship with God is born in time of severe trial. He is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

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CJaKfOrEsT Jul 31, 2004

Edited: 8 August 2004In the interests of keeping this thread smaller, I have removed this post, and placed it in a new thread called What's so bad about money?.The key point is that, if we are to take the Word of God literally, we can't avoid the fact that our management of money is pivotal to displaying our faithfulness to God.Don't agree with me? Then read the article.:-)

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Agent001 Aug 4, 2004

CJaKfOrEsT,Well-written, in my opinion. Going back to my original question about "fund-based" or "donation-based" financial models, I understand what you wrote to mean that nothing is inherently evil in either model, the most important thing is whether we are making best use of God's money in our role as God's stewards.Greg,I guess you take more issue with the lingos that C. Peter Wagner had used. I am also not too comfortable with these lingos, however, I understand that:1) Different groups and denominations will adopt many lingos and jargons that only the insiders understand. In this case, we are talking about a group associated with the Third Wave.2) Your source indicates that the original writing was probably meant to be read by insiders. I am sure Wagner would have presented the same point very differently if he were to give a lecture at Fuller (where he used to be). I would not have used terms like prophets, apostles, etc. myself. I guess I have simply filtered out these jargons, and was looking at his main point.Basically, he was suggesting that ministries be supported by the revenues generated by dedicated investment funds managed by capable Christian professionals, rather than by using donations directly into their cashflow. I do not see any essential problem there.As for your question, "Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?" I respond, "Whenever God chooses to." God used wealth to his end too--Count Zinzendorf would not have sparked the Moravian movement if he weren't a noble who provided refuge to godly people. In the context of the original article (see first post), the author is not saying anything close to the "wealth and health" gospel. He is not saying that people will get rich. He is simply saying that God will provide and supply money for Christian ministries (whether I agree with the "prophecies" of these "respected prophets" is quite another story)."The one [God] who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed and increase the harvest of your righteousness." 2 Cor. 9:10

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