Does anyone believe they can show me directly from scripture and reasoning from the scripture that we
INHERITED a SINFUL [b]NATURE
or any kind of [b]INABILITY
I am concerned it is from gnosticism and that it is blasphemy.
Ben
Could you please explain what David meant when he said he was "shapen in iniquity"? Psalm 51:5.
He says this as something different from his conception.
Furthermore, your assertation destroys the beatiful contrast between imputed sin from Adam and imputed righteousness from Christ in Romans 5.
Can you show me one toddler that doesn't throw a fit if they don't get what they want?
Also, I say it with respect, can you explain why infants die in light of death being the wages of sin?
[b]A Perspective on Psalm 51:5
by William P. Murray, Jr.
Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the `circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:
2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”
Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:
1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”
1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”
David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's Mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.
2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's
half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle. 29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”
...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as `true' a son as his half-brother. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected `all' his sons, to the sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring `his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....
1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”
....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the `least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21;
Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)
David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because `no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation’ (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered `defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17
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Hi Ben,
I have enjoyed reading your posts on SI and believe you are genuine in your love for God. I was amazed to learn from your post, I believe, that you are 28.
You have a heart for God and have grown in wisdom and understanding. I pray that you will stay humble before God and increase in your knowledge and Love for the Lord.
I have follow the thread that you and logic were writing back and forth on. I believe this is a follow up from Logics view. I also don't agree with Logic when He says we didn't inherit a sin nature. He is very strong about his beliefs though and I don't think he can be persuaded easily from scripture.
There are scriptures that prove the obvious in Romans 5:12-21 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is also obvious because of the blood of Jesus not being contaminated with Adam’s descendants. I will stop for now.
Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying, "I was born this way, I couldn't help it" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting?
True repentance requires that a person stops justifying and making excuses for their actions.
True repentance is when a person blames themselves for their sin, not the way they were born.
Instead of blaming Adam for the nature which they had no choice of recieving, a true repenance would take the full blaim for their willfull, intentional, free will choice.
rbanks wrote:
I also don't agree with Logic when He says we didn't inherit a sin nature. He is very strong about his beliefs though and[b]I don't think he can be persuaded easily from scripture.[/b]
There are scriptures that prove the obvious in Romans 5:12-21 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.[b]Romans 5:16
Paul is telling us that the two are not comparative.
The gift [of righteousness/justification] (of life) is not like the judgment (to die)
but it is like this:
The judgment was from just one offence of Adam to (die which leads to) condemnation.
but the free gift (of righteousness/justification) is from my life of sin to being right with God.
[b]Romans 5:17
Notice the logic:
If, because of Adam's trespass, [physical] death reigned because of him (Adam), [how] much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness [by faith will] reign in [physical] life because of Jesus Christ.
This “reigning in [physical] life” is living a victorious life from sin.
[b]Romans 5:18
Lets follow the analogy:
as by
even so by
1.
by the offence
by the righteousness
2.
of one
of one
3.
judgment came
the free gift came
4.
upon all men
upon all men
5.
to condemnation
unto justification of life
Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.
However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.
It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus, you will be justified.
[b]Romans 5:19
It must be this way, otherwise you get universal salvation.
If the many were made sinners involuntarily without choice, the many must be made righteous involuntarily without choice.[b]Romans 5:20
See Romans 7:13
Moreover the set of commands entered, that the offense would be seen as so very great. so where transgression abounded, grace did much more abound:
because, they saw there offense to be as so very great in contrast of the law
[b]Romans 5:21
That, as offence has dominated in [spiritual] death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal (spiritual) life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin dominates in those who are spiritually dead because of the flesh is domineering. Romans 7:14
Sin is not inherited through blood or birth.It is also obvious because of the blood of Jesus not being contaminated with Adam’s descendants. I will stop for now.
We are all born lost and Jesus came to seek and to save the Lost. The bible says there is none that does not sin. The bible says all have sinned. Jesus said I did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Paul explains in Romans 7:5-25 (KJV) 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Apostle Paul talked about sin that dwelt in him. Everybody born on this earth will sin and needs the atoning blood of Jesus Christ to cover and wash away their sins. The reason they will sin is because they were not born from birth with the spirit of God because they are a product of the fall of Adam. We all must be born of God through Jesus Christ. No matter how righteous Paul tried to live the law only condemn Him because of sin dwelling within Him. He lived as righteously as he could under the Law but when the light of the Law was revealed to Him he found that he was sold to sin. The sin nature that was in Paul revived and came alive because of the Law and the only one who could deliver him from this death is Jesus Christ and His Law of the Spirit of Life.
Also 1 John 1:7-9 (KJV) 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The bible says that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. This is talking about inbred sin. Logic you are accusing God of giving man a weak flesh that cause Adam to sin and say that is the reason we sin because our flesh was created weak. I don’t accuse God; I accuse Adam of being disobedient and not walking with God to keep from sinning. You say the reason we sin is because our flesh is created weak but I’m saying that the bible says that Adam brought sin into the world and we are tainted with sin from birth because of Adam. God did not create us weak so that we would sin; we became weak because of sin that was brought into this world by Adam. Adam lost the glory and righteousness of God because He sinned. We were in the loins of Adam so therefore we lost the glory and righteousness of God because of sin. We are restored by faith in Christ and His finished work. We must be born again. God created man a free agent for him to love and obey Him. God told Adam that there was only one tree he could not eat of or he would die and he did die spiritually. God has spoken again and told the whole world that there is only one way of Salvation and that is through His Son and the only way we can have eternal life. The sin nature is no excuse because God has shown His Love to us by not sparing His only Son so that he could give us all things. The sin nature affects our ability to live right before God but it does not effect are ability to cry out for help and to believe in his perfect Son who can become our righteousness. A person can live a pretty good moral life with the sin nature but he still must be born of God and cleansed by the blood of Jesus. The sin nature can also lead others to a life of pleasure in sin that can corrupt them so much that they are in deep bondage to gross sin but they can still be convicted by the Holy Spirit and cry out to the Savior in faith and be delivered by Him. Praise God for His wonderful Grace!
I think someone has to give the definition of sin first.
Could you please explain what David meant when he said he was "shapen in iniquity"? Psalm 51:5.
He says this as something different from his conception.
Furthermore, your assertation destroys the beatiful contrast between imputed sin from Adam and imputed righteousness from Christ in Romans 5.
Can you show me one toddler that doesn't throw a fit if they don't get what they want?
Also, I say it with respect, can you explain why infants die in light of death being the wages of sin?
good call, that about sums it up right there. 1 John 3:4by passerby on 2008/11/20 23:54:47
I think someone has to give the definition of sin first.
SIN
IS
LAWLESSNESS
good call, that about sums it up right there. 1 John 3:4 SIN IS LAWLESSNESS
To avoid confusion with Rom 4:15 which says "for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression", I will use KJV:
Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
But while sin is not imputed when there is no law, sin was in the world:
Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sin is not only limited to violation of the decalogue, sin in the broad sense is an act that is in violation of the moral characteristics of God.
Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
A sinful act can be an indulgence of thought:
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery;
Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Paul is hard (not impossible) to understand but what do you think of this? If you can have guilt because of an anscestor's sin then can you also be saved through an anscestor's faith?
Your quote makes it seem like the opposite of sin is faith. I would suggest the opposite of sin and sinfulness is righteousness.
So, yes. As Adam's sin is imputed to his descendants through physical birth, likewise, Christ's righteousness is imputed to his descendants through spiritual birth. That's the gospel, and that's the teaching of Romans 5.
However, since Pelagians deny the gospel of our Lord, they do not accept such a statement, and the god of this world has blinded their minds so that they cannot accept the truth about themselves or about God.
~Taylor
Does anyone believe they can show me directly from scripture and reasoning
You fool. How ignorant and arrogant can you be?
BenJoseph, since you think sin is not in the nature, I would ask why one must be born again? Why can he not simply be persuaded? Why must he be "begotten again"?
The moment before one has faith, he is certainly a natural man. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14) The use of the word 'natural' implies that by nature man sinfully rejects the gospel.
There are only two categories, natural and spiritual. Before one becomes a spiritual man he is a natural man, and so long as he is natural he receives none of the things of God as belonging to himself. Not only do the things of God seem foolish to the natural man, but he cannot know them. As Romans 1 says, "their foolish hearts were darkened." This darkness is one of sinfulness, 'darkness' , not mere ignorance.
Again, the moment before one has faith, he is certainly a carnal man. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7-8) It was not just that he thinks the way of God by faith is foolish, but he is at enmity with God. He is fighting to be accepted by his own deeds, or to go on in sin without repentance. According to his relentless internal wickedness he would have gone on forever in enmity against God's way, because he "neither indeed can be" made submissive in his natural frame to God's law of faith.
How is it then that people ever place trust in Christ? Because in a single instant of time, yet understood in logical order, God transforms - regenerates - His elect in such a way that their lively souls are freed from sin to believe that the promises of salvation are not only for others, but to them, and by faith these promises are applied to the elect. Again, this is not successive in time, but logically regeneration proceeds faith.
No one needs proof of such a nature,
even without scripture, our thoughts, our intentions, even if they seem to be endearing or "nice", that in itself reflects the disgusting garbage that we are filled with....
The sin nature is revealed by the condition of man's depravity, man's ability to rebel, man's inability to offer anything either up to God or another human being, it conveys or reveals by itself just how disgusting we are from the womb, even babies....
We are born, even conceived in a condition of wanton-ness, never satisfied, always complaining, easily swayed or convinced by others, it is always easier in nature to be negative, to look at the bad, or to have to ward off evil that it is to be a proprietor of good.
Another piece of evidence that we are born with a sin nature, is that we do not KNOW GOD in any fashion, we are marred when we are conceieved...
Our nature is unlike God...
Think heavily on those things, and until we make time for adequate meditation as to the validity of such things, all of scripture will just seem common and mundane to our earthly and carnal nature.
But here also is what is important, Our conscience is filled with unrest, fear, and loneliness until we bottom out on all of our selfish resources, then we begin to see or discover need for the conscience to be eased or CLEARED, and cleared only through a bright and lovingkind atonement that is forever after Melchizadek's order. A high Priest that had to be priestly in His ability to satisfy our absolute need, of which we ourselves weren't able to ammend.
We have no ability to ammend our conscience or lives, a simple apology WILL NOT SUFFICE here! We have to know that we are Naturally and Fleshly the enemy of God's purpose, will, intents and mind.
Again, nothing needs to to be proven of this sort, I believe that if one meditates enough or spends time alone with God whether conscientiously or not will find out how far from the peaceful shores of God they are.
This is why we are LOST! Because we do not know until it has been revealed, and even then, the conscience must seek out the ultimate provision-maker, the rectifier, the justifier, and His name is none other that Yeshua, Jesus, the Christ, the Great YHWH robed, embodied, and incarnately in human flesh!
Do not stay in that thinking BenJoseph, else your conscience will get hotter and hotter until it shuts down, then it will become cold with savage unbelief ad confusion, of the which , God is not an author of.
With the utmost blessings toward my new family here at SI in Jesus,
The fire
WoooooW NElly,
Go easy Brother Moderator,
based upon what we have been through, I woudn't want you to be upset or agitated later on with how you handled the previous posting.....
Just a little gesture for you bro...
Don't let it get you hot like that.
Take care in Christ
BenJoseph, since you think sin is not in the nature, I would ask why one must be born again? Why can he not simply be persuaded? Why must he be "begotten again"?
Very well observed. I didn't think of this. Praise the Lord for the new birth!
Grace to you,
Taylor
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