Question on "tongues"

Why is it that some doctrines state that the speaking in tongues is a gift that the Holy Spirit no longer gives? Is there any "scriptural-biblical" truth to that?

The arguments that I have heard in support of the view that tongues are not for our time use 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. They claim that "that which is perfect" refers to the completion of Holy Scripture and the end of the Apostolic Era. Those who hold this view say that tongues were a "sign" gift only for the Apostles, a temporary gift that has passed away.Personally, I don't feel this is the best interpretation of the 1 Corinthians passage, it seems that in context, the "perfection" being spoken of is regarding the glorified church in the future where she will be complete in knowledge and holiness.Tongues are a bit of a mystery to me as I have never had this gift, but I do believe they can be used by the Spirit in our day. I also believe there is much misuse of this gift today as was the case in the Corinthian church.I've heard quite a bit of debate on tongues and gifts of the Spirit. I think it's wise to keep the words of Paul to the Corinthians in mind;But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Corinthians 12:31 ; 13:1-3) In Christ,Ron

Hi Ron,Something that came up earlier this week in my travels was the thought that 'tongues' were largely silent for hundreds of years until this century (1900-2000). Something I hadn't thought much about...

Something that came up earlier this week in my travels was the thought that 'tongues' were largely silent for hundreds of years until this century (1900-2000). Something I hadn't thought much about...Yes I am aware of this and it is another reason why I say it is a bit of a mystery to me. I have heard some sound arguments on both sides of this issue, I am certainly not dogmatic about this matter but as I said, as of right now I do believe it is still a valid gift for today. In Christ,Ron

Kind of stating the obvious perhaps. I don't really have a strong point of view about it other than the excesses I have seen and heard, which seem to be dominant and make me leery of the whole thing.

Although largely silent, I have heard that they have occurred at every major revival. Also I think that tounges became very unpopular after the perversion of Montanism. That could explain the lack of them for a long time.John

Hi Inigowe have touched on some of this earlier, and this earlier thread may have some interest for you Initial EvidenceAs 'inthelight' has rightly said 'cessationists' (people who believe that the charisma-gift manifestations of the Spirit have no ceased) usually base their assumptions on the 1 Cor 13 passage.Their absence in church history is another matter. There is a rule in history that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. The fact that there is little documented evidence is not really a proof that they weren't there. Most of church history was written by the persecutors, so we only get to hear one side.There was a group of Christians in Phrygia (modern Turkey) around AD 170 who were villified by the church authorities of the day, but supported by a man called Tertullian. They believed in contemporary prophecy. Tertullian wrote against their critics by saying 'they put to flight the Paraclete' (the Comforter KJV). Almost everything else we ever read about the Phrygian group (Montanists) is from their enemies, but Tertullian was a lawyer and very highly regarded. His support for them suggests that the 'official church line' is just one side of the evidence.Nevertheless in contemporary history I think the earliest documented reference to tongues would be the incidents at the Topeka Bible School at the beginning of the 20th Century. So while the absence in history does not prove their non-existence there certainly is a long period without their mention.Why? Wesley said that it was the result of the church's backslidden condition and he looked for their restoration. Other truths have slipped from sight only to be restored; justification by faith, sanctification, the nature of the local church as a body, the priesthood of believers... I have spoken in tongues, as a devotional aid, for over 45 years. In addition to personal praise it has long been my instinct that when faced with perplexity and not knowing how I should pray, I have turned to God in tongues to allow my spirit to pray.I do not regard tongues as 'the initial evidence of the baptism in the Spirit' nor as any kind of evidence of spirituality, but with Paul 'I thank God that I speak with tongues...'Although I share the puzzlement of others over their long 'absence' my main reason for my belief is not my own personal experience but the fact that I find no scriptural evidence for cessationism. If the cessationists are right all manifestation of the Spirit has ceased; I cannot believe that in the light of scripture.If any want to challenge this (in love) please do. I am not the least 'touchy' about the topic and will try to answer as best I can.

oops, hit the wrong button and posted twice. Apologies

Yea, one of my professors is an expert on montanism, and he said, "there really isn't much on them to know anything for sure"... Heh go figure.However they were, I think that after the church condemned montanism, people were afraid to speak in tounges for fear of being labelled as one. I speak in tounges also. I find that it is helpful for getting things said to God, when I dont have adaquate words to express how I must glorify Him. All to and for HimJohn

Thanks Ron and John.I have spoken in tongues, as a devotional aid, for over 45 years. In addition to personal praise it has long been my instinct that when faced with perplexity and not knowing how I should pray, I have turned to God in tongues to allow my spirit to pray.Ron, I am assuming this is different from Romans 8:26 and yet perhaps there are some parallels...Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. From Clarke's Commentary:Rom 8:26 - The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities - The same Spirit, το πνευμα, mentioned before as bearing witness with ours that we are the children of God; and consequently it is not a disposition or frame of mind, for the disposition of our mind surely cannot help the infirmities of our minds.The word συναντιλαμβανεται is very inadequately expressed by helpeth. It is compounded of συν, together, αντι, against, and λαμβανομαι, to support or help, and signifies such assistance as is afforded by any two persons to each other, who mutually bear the same load or carry it between them. He who prays, receives help from the Spirit of God; but he who prays not receives no such help. Whatever our strength may be, we must put it forth, even while most implicitly depending on the strength of God himself.For we know not what we should pray for as we ought - And should therefore be liable to endless mistakes in our prayers, if suitable desires were not excited by the Holy Spirit and power received to bring these desires, by prayer, before the throne of grace.But the Spirit itself - Αυτο το πνευμα, The same Spirit, viz. the Spirit that witnesses of our adoption and sonship, Rom_8:15, Rom_8:16, makes intercession for us. Surely if the apostle had designed to teach us that he meant our own sense and understanding by the Spirit, he never could have spoken in a manner in which plain common sense was never likely to comprehend his meaning. Besides, how can it be said that our own spirit, our filial disposition, bears witness with our own spirit; that our own spirit helps the infirmities of our own spirit; that our own spirit teaches our own spirit that of which it is ignorant; and that our own spirit maketh intercession for our own spirit, with groanings unutterable? This would have been both incongruous and absurd. We must therefore understand these places of that help and influence which the followers of God receive from the Holy Ghost; and consequently, of the fulfillment of the various promises relative to this point which our Lord made to his disciples, particularly in Joh_14:16, Joh_14:17, Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26, Joh_15:27; Joh_16:7; and particularly Joh_16:13, Joh_16:14 : Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.Rom 8:27 - He maketh intercession for the saints - The word εντυγχανω signifies to apply one’s self to a person in behalf of another; to intercede or negotiate for. Our Lord makes intercession for us, by negotiating and managing, as our friend and agent, all the affairs pertaining to our salvation. And the Spirit of God makes intercession for the saints, not by supplication to God on their behalf, but by directing and qualifying their supplications in a proper manner, by his agency and influence upon their hearts; which, according to the Gospel scheme, is the peculiar work and office of the Holy Spirit. See Taylor.According to the will of God - Κατα Θεον· According to the mind, intention, or design of God. And thus the prayers which we offer up, and the desires which subsist in the unutterable groanings, are all such as are pleasing in the sight of God. So that God, whose is the Spirit, and who is acquainted with the mind of the Spirit, knows what he means when he leads the saints to express themselves in words, desires, groans, sighs, or tears: in each God reads the language of the Holy Ghost, and prepares the answer according to the request.From all this we learn that a fluency in prayer is not essential to praying: a man may pray most powerfully in the estimation of God, who is not able to utter even one word. The unutterable groan is big with meaning, and God understands it, because it contains the language of his own Spirit. Some desires are too mighty to be expressed; there is no language expressive enough to give them proper form and distinct vocal sound: such desires show that they came from God; and as they came from him, so they express what God is disposed to do, and what he has purposed to do. This is a matter of great encouragement to all those who are agonizing to enter in at the strait gate.----------------------I guess my question would be, 'utter-able' or 'unutterable'? Both? In reference to "allowing my spirit to pray"Very interested in this Ron, being that 'perplexed' is often where I find myself and of late even more so...there is just so much to pray about, it can be overwhelming. Don't know what I would do without these verses...

i read a really good book called"2000 years of charismatic christianity by eddie hyatt"it goes from the apostles to today looking at the gifts of the spirit being used. i believe God always has a remmnent.so if u want a good read i reccomend it.i speak in tounges it builds u up gets u in touch with the spirit of God.

Just a thought- if God is in the process of restoring New testament Christianity, wouldn't that also mean restoring everything (including all the gifts in full) to the way it was after Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit?Even though this is not one of my gifts, i have longed for it in prayer sometimes when I knew I had no human words to express what I meant.In Him, Chanin

Hi MikeI guess my question would be, 'utter-able' or'unutterable'? Both? In reference to "allowing my spirit to pray"There may be links in thought with Rom 8 but I think Clarke is right that this is the Holy Spirit in the context of the rest of the chapter. I've thought more in terms of For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:11 KJV)However, if my spirit is in communion with His Spirit there may well be things which my spirit could receive but which would baffle my mind. I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning; (1Ti 2:8 YLT) This is an interesting and valid translation; makes it sound as though both wrath and reasoning can disqualify our prayer. I sometimes think that we have too much information in prayer, although I am not pleading for ignorance. Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians is at the back of my mind; For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? (1Co 14:14-16 KJV)I often have a feeling that we are missing something here. The contemporary pattern of tongues in local assemblies does not fit this scenario, and yet the whole of this section is in the context of the public meeting. It is certainly illuminating to see that in each of these references to 'with the spirit' (by which Paul would seem to mean 'in a tongue') is a form of prayer.

Hi ChaninJust a thought- if God is in the process of restoring New testament Christianity, wouldn't that also mean restoring everything (including all the gifts in full) to the way it was after Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit?Why not? This was John Wesley's explanation of the missing gifts... It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby heaped riches, and power, and honor, upon the Christians in general; but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not (as has been vulgarly supposed,) "because there was no more occasion for them," because all the world was become Christian. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, "the love of many," almost of all Christians, so called, was "waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly "find faith upon earth." This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church -- because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left. John Wesley sermon 'The More Excellent Way'

This is an interesting and valid translation; makes it sound as though both wrath and reasoning can disqualify our prayer. I sometimes think that we have too much information in prayer, although I am not pleading for ignorance. Been listening to an old A.W.Tozer message where he touches on this whole business of reasoning while not advocating ignorance as well.For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:8,9I often have a feeling that we are missing something here. The contemporary pattern of tongues in local assemblies does not fit this scenario, and yet the whole of this section is in the context of the public meeting. It is certainly illuminating to see that in each of these references to 'with the spirit' (by which Paul would seem to mean 'in a tongue') is a form of prayer.Yes, sadly my experience was primarily in a 'coaching' session...won't go into it all. But also the whole missing aspect of an interpetor at other times as well (in a public setting) had me pretty sour, actually grieved.But as far as 'vocalizing' in private, I guess was what I was wondering...

HAPPY the souls that first believed,To Jesus and each other cleaved,Joined by the unction from aboveIn mystic fellowship of love. We sing this Wesley hymn regularly in our local church. Our version has 18 verses and your version has 3 verses that aren't in our version!! What a hymn, those were the days... and why not again?

Yes Amen sister thats very true but lest us not forget the more excellent things such as unity and love Of course, this is the obvious. You know how I feel about love being the most EXCELLENT way since I have talked about it many times. That's why I stated "Just a thought" at the beginning of my post. :-) in Him, Chanin