A Release of Frustration

Dear brethren,

Over the years I have found that sharing some of my frustrations on this site has helped me in the past, and brought a sense of solidarity to others who may be experiencing the same.

The church my wife and I attend is a vibrant AG fellowship in Texas. We are situated in the middle of San Marcos - the home of Texas State University. There are lots of college kids. As result, the church is compelled to highly contemporize the praise and worship for our young visitors (we sometimes do "Newsboys" songs and other Christian top 40 billboard songs). The volume is loud, some of the musicians dress seemingly to make a fashion statement: grunge, tweed blazers with the shirt untucked, jeans and hair gell. A female generally leads the worship, and she is like a firecracker leaping around, speaking in tongues, shouting, preaching to the congregation in-between the songs, etc. My poor ears can't take it anymore. I have to wait outside in lobby entrance during these times, my ears hurt, my head pounds, I sense myself becoming agitated. It has been going on like this for over a year now.

If I establish eye contact with a deacon, he will ask me to help take a collection, publically read a Bible passage (which he has chosen), or just come up and pray over something at the drop of a hat. This is because I am respected as someone "spiritually mature" in the flock. Yesterday, I was asked to come forward with the "prayer team" and help pray and I kindly declined, opting instead to stay behind in my seat and pray from there. It was an awkward moment. I'm tired of being expected to perform, to endorse soul. I relinquished my credentials earlier this year because I can't take the foolery anymore. The allowance of women to do whatever they want to on the platform; the compulsory tithing under threat of a curse; the offensive rock music, and the sermons never seem to deepen - they just remain at the same level to reach and speak to those who are content to meet them eye-to-eye.

I long for the singing of some plain old Charles Wesley hymns, with just piano or accapella. I long for a meaty sermon on the New Birth or the dynamic of Sin, or the power of the blood of Christ. Something with strong meat that is able to work revelation and spiritually metabolize under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for letting me vent! The more I study the Word, the more I sing hymns in the quiet time, the more I soak myself in scripture and read good, wholesome literature by the saints of old, the more disgruntled I get with where I fellowship. Please try to refrain from offering me the banal, "Why don't you just pray about joining another fellowship..." because that base is already covered. I am where I am for a reason; it's just that this forum is really the only place I can vent (and you know it doesn't happen often) and expect some good, constructive thought from you guys in return.

See, I feel better already :-)

I can understand your frustation. I've visited churches like that, and at one point I just walked out because what was going to take place was so predictable and sad.

Songs and singing with no depth, I dare not call it worship, for I wonder if in God's eyes it was.

Sermons which, yes, they did use scripture, but you were left wondering, is that all there is to the message. Sometimes, the singing was nearly twice as long as the sermon.

But, in Revelation 3, we find the church in Sardis, and it has different groups of people in this one church.

This church had a name that was known, but they were dead.

They needed to strengthen the things that remained.

They also needed to repent

There were also those who had not defiled their garments and shall walk with Christ in white for they were worthy.

We should strive to be like those who walk in white, that is what God is looking for.

Take heart, God knows.

God bless.

Brother Paul.
Your letter reveals to me, that you are growing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
You really know that all that you are witnessing in Church, is grieving your Savior, so it is grieving you, also.

Thank you for sharing this.

I have been where you are now, and God brought me out of the Church that I had belonged to for Years.

You just obey the Lord, Brother, and it won't be easy, but we all have the assurance, that" His Yoke is easy, and His Burden is Light. "

God Bless you.
Nellie

There are lots of college kids. As result, the church is compelled to highly contemporize the praise and worship for our young visitors

Why is the church 'compelled'? Is God compelling them or is the world? I'm guessing your church feels it has to offer this music to attract young people. Personally, I am reluctant to call this music 'worship'. That of course is not to say that it isn't. It just isn't for me. There is a certain amount of it in my church, but thankfully it is kept to a minimum.

From reading the Bible it is clear to me that we are not called to entertain even though this may achieve higher church numbers. To quote an old time preacher "if you get on fire for Christ, the people will come and watch you burn". A little crude I know, but the principle is clear. I believe we're on the wrong track with contemporary music. We're losing the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is because I am respected as someone "spiritually mature" in the flock.

This is encouraging brother.

I long for a meaty sermon on the New Birth or the dynamic of Sin, or the power of the blood of Christ. Something with strong meat that is able to work revelation and spiritually metabolize under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you could preach in your church? I'm not sure whether God has opened this door for you yet, but you sound like a wonderful asset to your church.

The point you have raised is a common one. It's not easy to deal with because it's hard to know if the Holy Spirit is in this worship or not, but keep pressing on brother.

In Christ

David

Dear brother Paul,

In the short while I’ve been on this discussion forum, I’ve really come to appreciate the wisdom and Biblical grounding that is in your posts. I can relate to many of the concerns you have written about. In the past 2 years, our family has been in 2 churches that were of a Pentecostal/ Charismatic bent and now we are attending a Baptist church. For us, there came a time when we felt it was necessary to leave both of these churches, however this decision was one which came about over time, and God has unique plans and seasons for all of us.

I’ll describe briefly some of the things that were going on at the original church we were at. First, there was much that was a blessing to us at this church and this was the church that my wife and I were married in. This church has a large children’s program which underwent some changes over time, as new leadership assumed control of this area of the church. The focus shifted from stories and activities which were instructive, and were of a challenging nature, to entertaining the kids. The kids services featured black lights, dry ice, and syncho-pop music which kids and leaders would dance to. Some of the songs had lyrics that bothered us. For instance, in one song the kids were asked to “shake your behinds”. For us, the breaking point came when a newer children’s leader was performing a skit and used the term ‘sexy’ to describe himself. Meanwhile, the sermons we listened to in the adult service were well thought out and well prepared, but a ‘marketing mentality’ became the driving force of the church, as time progressed.

The next church we attended seemed very promising at the outset. Initially, we were drawn to it after listening to some of the pastor’s sermons that were available for download from the church web site. He seemed like an old fashioned preacher. Moreover, when my wife asked him who his favorite authors were, he listed those like F.B. Meyer, A.W. Tozer, and Andrew Murray. However, we later found out that he was developing a new group of favorite authors, which consisted of people like Joel Osteen. We discussed our concerns about Osteen by email with him, which lead him to reply that he was ‘putting him on the shelf’, because of the issues that we raised. However, we remained a bit unsettled in spirit, not knowing if he had just done this to please us, or if he had truly come to see the serious errors of prosperity teaching, and other related teachings. After a year of attending, we were loathe to leave this church, especially since the people there were so friendly and loving. But as ‘Kingdom Theology’ became more and more of a feature of the sermons, and alternate Sunday nights were devoted to teaching “Principles of Kingdom Living’, we believed it was time to move to another church.

The church we attend now, is very biblically focused. It’s taken us some time to get used to having only hymns in the worship part of the service. While I don’t like certain contemporary choruses, I do enjoy the fact that there is liberty and joy manifested when songs are sung that promote some of what we are urged to do in the Psalms (eg ‘Shout to the Lord’, Break forth into jubilant song’ etc). I feel that some modern choruses are lacking in their spiritual meaning, while others are quite good. However, despite the fact that my wife and I would like to see more enthusiasm and joy demonstrated during worship, we have by and large been very happy with our new church. We have been challenged by the sermons. Some of them touch on vital topics such as ‘church discipline’ which have been pretty gone by the way side, and are no longer seen as applicable to our modern generation.

I don’t know if anything I’ve written will be helpful, as generally your venting has just prompted me to do the same :-) I can relate though, and it is nice to be able to share these concerns with people who feel much the same way. I will pray for you for God’s guidance and strength. May He bless you and cause His face to shine upon you !

Yours in Christ,
John

Dear Paul,

I have been through this myself, and I believe countless others here on this forum.

After I awoke rudely from my backslidden state, I became aware of the shallowness and triviality of much of our church services. Much of this I credit to preaching here on SI! I tried to engage with others in discussions and stated my concerns with many people and the leadership. My points were not taken into considerantion and so we left.

My advice is that God shows you these things for a reason beyond your own benefit. You should after much prayer speak to your leadership and the member individualy, may be they see the point. Remember, the majority of your church may be in false security and may be rejected by the Lord on the last day. You have to warn them in a spirit of deep compasssion. Can you imagine the gratitude of a soul rescued from such a state on the last day? I rather perplex 99 and win one rather then let them get lost.

Jude 22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Also Ezechiel 33 whole chapter.

Your are in fellowship with the prophets of old in this situation, they suffered about their people and you are not exempt.

While you remain where you are, I also advise you to seek fellowship with some likeminded believers for mutual refreshment and to maintain your spiritual sanity. This is vital for survial. It is very difficult to harbour spiritual anguish as you do for a prolonged time and not somehow become negatively affected.

I still battle depressive moods because of this situation. Now we are in a fellowship where things are better from the teaching side. Still I am looking for an authentic expression of what Jesus and Paul had in mind when they talked about the church and I told the Lord that I want to experience it once in my lifetime or else he can take me away.

"Why don't you just pray about joining another fellowship

Banal, but this is what you should do after you exhausted your options.

narrowpath

My this sounds all too familiar! although there are several hundred miles apart geographically speaking, it seems to be going around, this sort of sickness. I call it a sickness because it seems to me to be opposite of wholeness, which is what the Lord gives.

We went to a church much like this for several years endeavoring to be whatever kind of a testimony we could be there. When they would ask me to sing I would quite often sing accapella, and though I might share beforehand usually it was simply reading a verse from scripture or a prayer... surprisingly there were many people who liked the quietness of singing without hulabaloo, even many young people would come to me and appreciated to words they heard.

My husband often taught an adult Sunday School class, and though he would sometimes feel that some were offended at what he spoke, many people appreciated to straight forward gospel that he spoke. Even an older preacher who came to this church from a rather larger more popular one after he retired asked my husband where he studied at and told him how much he appreciated his spirit.

There were times that he or I were asked to pray for people and so on, and we tried to be very sensitive to the Holy Spirit on that and pray what He would have us pray which, though sometimes, was awkward to the flesh nevertheless was what was often needed... for more than just the issue at hand, but even for the hearers.

We certainly stood out like the proverbial "sore thumb"; but, I heard from a friend of mine who ran into someone who still currently attends that church (we moved from the area about 5 years ago) that the person that she missed was myself, which quite frankly shocked me indeed!

While church "leadership" tries to bring in the numbers and dollars, there are still many people there whose hearts really want to just hear what God would say to the church. There are still people, regardless of age that still appreciate the message from hymns and the simplicity of accapella or singular instrument, if it is annointed.

As a matter of fact there are many people who are just downright starved for fellowship with the Father and the Son; who long for people to just be real that care for their souls; there are plenty of folks who, yes and amen, need to have strengthened those things that remain; even that have a hope that somewhere, someone else desires to be obedient more than they fear man, more than they want to see acceptance, more than numbers, really more than anything else.

When the time is right, as I'm sure you know, God will remove you from this congregation; I say that only because I've seen it over and over again; but until then there are other Christians that just need to see you there. They probably need to see you say, 'no, I'll just pray from here for now.'; they may see you as a hope for the true Christianity they long for much more than you may ever know.

I'm sorry to go on. It just seems to be such a struggle in this present day.

(I do not mean this verse that you by any means have fear, only as a source of encouragement.)

[i]Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, He it is that doth go with thee; He will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.[/i] Dt. 31:6

Lord bless you,
Lori

Dear Brother West,

My husband and I have given up searching for a physical church to attend. We spend time each day listening to and reading the Bible. The closer to the Lord we get the less any of the worldly trappings we are able to swallow.

Praise Jesus for His good providence to place us in a Country that has free access (for the time being, anyway) to the Bible and groups such as this. There but for the Grace of God is not a statement to be taken lightly.

I am glad you vented. Your concerns are valid. Follow your conscience.

Kind regards,
white stone

Paul, just recently my Daughter was "kicked off" is the way I will put it the Prayer partners team at Lakewood, they have to be there one hr. early to just stand in some little covey hole location of the Church and Pray for a solid hr. Well my daughter asked the team leader instead of the one hr. Prayer time in the group, wouldn't it be better if we all walked around the Church greeting and Praying for folks that need individual prayer and the lady was so hard headed and closed minded she told my Daughter if she did not like the way things were done to move on. Now let me vent as nice as this old Texas boy can, I wanted to slap her silly the way she put it to my daughter and I still may if I am ever having a bad day one Sunday, I will just have to ask God to forgive me. :-)

Well my daughter keep her Prayer Partner ID tag because no one has had the backbone to ask her for it back,"yea I am upset to" so now during Prayer time, she just gets up out of her seat and goes were Gods leads her to pray for folks and it seems now the "real leaders" of the church are liking this and have approached my daughter on how to structure this and may start a different smaller team for this. The Church in my opinion needs to do some "house cleaning" to get rid of some of the folks that I feel do things as they see fit and "NOT" whats Gods leads them to do, they structure things to satisfy the majority or themselves, we want to keep the majority happy or myself, who cares what anyone else thinks is the new attitude.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I guess what really motivated me to post this was the feeling I had waking up this morning. The trouble entering into quiet time, remembering what the praise and worship leader told me after the show was over yesterday. She came up to me and whispered in my ear: "You ALWAYS need to come up with the prayer team...."

This upset me. I gently told her, "Sister, I'll come up when I'm led to come up." She was taken aback and continued on her way, but it stuck with me. I told my wife about it, and she reminded me that I needed to be instant in season, out of season. This I am familiar with, but I also believe that not being led by God trumps any season you may be in at the moment.

We have home Bible studies with the deacons of my church, Matthew Henry style, and I lead the studies...and this is where God has me right now, and why I am to be at this particular church. The deacons are getting their first taste of deeper devotions, being introduced to men like Watson and Flavel and Mueller through our studies. They came to me and expressed the need for "something deeper" to supplement the Sunday morning sermons. Usually I am fine at church (meaning I can moderately tolerate the atmosphere), but yesterday it really tore into me. And then the prompting from the Chi Alpha pastor and worship leader to perform...it just perturbed me. It carried over to this morning, where I was "disquieted" by it during quiet time. My impulse was to make this thread and vent. I realize there's nothing deep and wise here - I know many of you have come to expect as much from my postings - and I apologize for that. The truth is, I get frustrated just like everyone else, and need to vent (whether in the flesh or not, I'll let you judge).

And, yes, I have prayed about different fellowships, and the answer from God is to [i]stay[/i] until told otherwise. Those of you who are seated in solid fellowships where flesh and soul are discerned and avoided, you really don't know how blessed you are. How I long for purity in worship, corporate worship, and for strong, holy preaching that staggers the inner man. How I long for the simplicity of hymns without anyone's persona injected.

O brethren, let's pray for one another.

My frustration:
Being zealous for the Lord in a church that lacks spiritual vibrancy. It is not said but felt that they think me a kind of heretic.

My frustration:
Being the odd ball for constantly suggesting the importance of seeking the Lord's face foremost about issues concerning us, our church or our nation, rather than merely talking about it or trying to seek a solution in our wisdom and strength. Being rejected time and time again about the necessity of regular corporate prayer.

My disappointment:
For some time now, the Lord has placed upon me His burden for the souls of men and a desire to do something about in my community.
He impressed upon my heart to write a personal letter explaining man's sin and redemption through Christ. It's written in a loving way, but nonetheless, where Christ and the cross is mentioned, there will be an offensive. In the letter, I listed our church's name as a reference of being a good Bible believing church where the Gospel is preached. I have gone through the phone directory and sent copies of these letters to thousands of people, at a great
cost to me, but deemed it a small price to pay for the giving out of the Gospel to some who otherwise would never darken the door of a
church. At one point my pastor was pleased with me doing this, until he received a few responses from people (non-believers of course)who were offended by them. He told me that he wanted me to remove the name of our church from off the letters and as much as intimated that he agrees with those that have contacted him that I should cease from sending them. This greatly disappointed me because to me the main objected of a church is to get the Gospel message out. We should be proud as a church for doing this, and not be cowered by the offense of the ungodly.

I feel that again here I stand alone.

Charmaine

Hi Brother Paul...

I feel your pain. My parents came to the Lord at an old fashioned A/G fellowship in Tennessee. My sisters came to the Lord at a "modern" A/G fellowship in Virginia. I met the Lord one night at a summer camp in Yorktown, TX, while we were attending an Assembly of God congregation in southern Texas. I have seen this dichotomy of structure with the A/G for quite a while now. I attended congregations whose pastors seemed to have an unquenchable desire to "grow" in numbers and "vitality." Their solution? They have catered to the wants of youth.

I understand a goal of not having a "dead" church. There is nothing quite so dead as a Church meeting void of spiritual life. Yet I learned a long time ago that this has nothing to do with the music, preaching, etc... I have seen just as many (and perhaps, MORE) "dead" congregations in modern, "hip" churches as I have in the quiet, lowly ones.

Not too long ago, my wife, her sister and I attended a Christian music festival in Calistoga, CA. It was the "Rock of Ages" festival. I went mostly to hear some of the speakers (like the Creation Research people). However, I also went to see the music. I could not believe how "secular" some of it was! During the Newsboys portion of the festival at night, people were dancing with one another, "body surfing," and even moshing. Needless to say, I found it deeply disturbing. I didn't want to "judge," but I could hardly find a young person who seemed to be extraordinarily "genuine" with the sincerity of their faith at the festival!

I think that this is an epidemic at our churches. It has less to do with music and more to do with "pleasing" people...or fitting in with the conception of a pentecostal church. Pastors are simply excited when the congregation is busy with the workings of the Church. Thus, they don't worry about how "real" this faith is -- as long as people continue to attend.

My sister-in-law is 18 yrs old. Before she moved with us to attend Stanford University, she was attending a very active youth group at an independent church different than the one her parents attended in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. The youth group seemed quite busy, and most of her family was excited that she wanted to be so involved in the work of the Lord. Yet as we started to inspect the youth ministry, we uncovered a climate of disaster. The youth were simply involved because they were allowed to be involved. The 26+ yr old youth pastor was secretly trying to date my sister-in-law (while she was in high school...taking her on secret dates and even kissing her many times while they were alone). This entire youth group, in fact, was like a social dating service. Guys and girls dated one another with shocking results...even though the silly youth pastor claimed to believe and teach the principles of "biblical courting."

The youth pastor was teaching them doctrine...but the hyper-charismatic doctrine he learned at Rod Parsley's bible school. He constantly proclaimed that he "is a man of God" and "hears the voice of God." The youth group simply revolved around staying busy for the church and the youth group music bands. They would go visit churches, but we found out that they would leave early if it became "boring." There was no hunger seemingly present for the truth of God's Word. They just seemed happy to be in a club.

We were glad to free my sister-in-law from that mess. We are trying to keep that silly youth pastor away from her (he lied to me repeatedly about their relationship...and even when confronted with what we know, he continued to lie or state his claim of being a "man of God" *rolls eyes*). Yet this sort of nightmare scenario is playing out in many churches today. This is especially true of Pentecostal churches (and even more classical pentecostal churches like the A/G). Pastors are just wanting something to happen, that they seem to settle for a "rain dance" -- like the prophets of Baal did before their altar. I even heard one pastor say that "[i]if God doesn't move, I move God[/i]!" Just think of the audacity of such a statement!!! The error lies in the commonly held notion that God only moves when there is a busy congregation...or exciting music...or full pews...or youth that actually are excited to go to Church. This is not revival. Nor is God confined to such things.

I feel your pain, brother Paul. I see so many congregations that are exceedingly dead -- even though they have a reputation of being alive.

I guess I am the one ranting now. But it does feel a little better to get it off of my chest!

:-)

"getting their first taste of deeper devotions, being introduced to men like Watson and Flavel and Mueller through our studies."

Dear Brother West,

Reading Matthew Henry spoiled me for any modern writer or preacher. My first taste was Martin Luther and from there I was hooked. Martin Luther's works are available in download, Free at "The Project Gutenberg."

It was, also, then that I realized how 'dumbed down' our written language has become. How clearly these man can express their points. Matthew Henry leaves no confusion and nothing to interpretation. You know where he stands when he says something and you know where in Scripture he founded his stand.

If only there was a Church that taught from this perspective, I would make it a point to be in a pew. A Church like that would have no cheerleader leading Hymns. The members probably would not be concerned about clinging to their 'tax exempt' status, so there would be few paid positions available within it's ranks so there would probably be no Prayer Group Commando.

It requires an acquired taste for reading these books and it can spoil you for most anything else written within the last 100 years. However, it is not necessary to read them, as everything they say is in the Bible, but how clearly I can understand their point.

I can understand you not wanting to leave your church since you have this study group to look forward to and lead. I will pray the other men in your group grow in the Lord as you are.

Does you wife read these, too? It would be good if the other women at your Church were to start studying, too.

Going from what the Apostle Paul teaches is it not right for the 'praise and worship leader' to be a woman. She was out of line to tell you what to do. These are serious symptoms, I hope you are able to help them, if not, flee.

Kindest regards,
white stone

Reading Matthew Henry spoiled me for any modern writer or preacher. My first taste was Martin Luther and from there I was hooked.

Brethren, I think that in trying to protect our churches from becoming lukewarm, we overcorrect the wheel and spin-out on the other side of the road with pumped-up ebullience and dynamic music, teaming volume and profusity with anointing.

My wife is a godly woman, but we are at different stages in the school of God. She loves the Lord with all her heart - and has the amazing faith of a babe. But she likes the contemporary music, and she can lift her hands and worship the Lord with the music. I used to be able to do the same, but I can't anymore. Something in me has shifted, and when I hear the songs I am disturbed in spirit.

I met the section presbyter yesterday, who, a long time ago interviewed me when I was getting my credentials. He knows that I have since relinquished them, and so it was a bit awkward shaking his hand yesterday, explaining I was still Christian (I could see he was concerned) and not in moral failure or anything else; I just couldn't stomach the denominationalism any longer. He put his hand on my shoulder in commiseration and told me I could call him if I ever wanted a person to talk to. I guess he thought I was lonely and confused?

:-(

P.S. My wife is expressing an interest to read Bunyon's Pilgrim's Progress for the first time. This is an amazing thing, coming from the strong Pentecostal backround she was raised in. About three years ago she didn't even know what a Puritan was; John Bunyon in her mind rode a big blue ox and chopped down trees. Now she knows better...and she knows about Matthew Henry and Charles Wesley too. We're getting there slowly but surely. It takes time for God to work.

And I'm the chief example.

PaulWest wrote:
But she likes the contemporary music, and she can lift her hands and worship the Lord with the music. I used to be able to do the same, but I can't anymore.

Wow Paul I can relate to this, I have recently did the same. I used to be able to lift mine and holler along "I can't sing" with the best of them, now since I have quit for some reason now my wife wonders if I am getting bored with the music. Why is it that some folks in Church just can't see God may be working on us to act or be different rather than folks say are you getting bored? I just told her, I really never felt comfortable doing it and I only did it because everyone else did, she was speechless, but she still Loves me. :-)

"He put his hand on my shoulder in commiseration and told me I could call him if I ever wanted a person to talk to. I guess he thought I was lonely and confused?"

Sad, he has a need to call you and he is blind to it.

It is my opinion that being 'promoted' to any position of authority or honor is personally destructive. I think the positions, if really necessary, should be on a limited basis to keep people humble. There is a famine in this Country for truly humble men and women of God. I am not speaking of false humbleness but genuine, spirit-filled humility. That is a revival that would move mountains!

Regards,
ws

I hear you brother... Its sometime very painful to go to church on a Sunday. This is why I am leaving the big bang ! Getting involved at grass roots level ... a few families and single men and women who want to pursue holiness, 1 guitar a few old hymns and bible studies... I get tremendous encouragement from Gideon who only need 300.

God help us all !