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som man posted this about paul washer and sent it to me

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bible1985 Dec 16, 2008

2. reformatienl -

25 indictments against Paul Washer:
1) willfully limiting the subjectmatter of Scripture
2) willfully presenting his own fabricated version of true christianity
3) willfully bringing himself under a cloak of godliness
4) willfully closing the book of Revelation and the Prophets
5) willfully painting the graves of the prophets for his own selfish ends
6) willfully presenting himself since 2002 with remarks that show Billy Graham
to be his brother, although Graham is high in the world and an archdeceiver
7) comparison with the whole of Scripture and the true old paths of the Reformation
show him to be a cloud without water
8) connection in the Netherlands to all false christianity has to offer, even with those
who publicly say calvinism is a complete error
9) presenting himself in 80.000 newspapers in the Netherlands smiling as though
the sins of the churches and the land are no problem to him
10) proclaiming a message of revival that has never come, thereby telling lies in Gods Name.
11) accepting in the core of his message two contradictive systems of doctrine
12) denying the witness of the Holy Spirit in the Reformation against THE antichrist in Rome
13) denying the blood of hunderthousands christian brothers and sisters against THE antichrist in Rome
14) going around the USA and the world to gain one proselyte that he makes a clone of himself
15) being silent about the developements in the outside world, only preaching for his own parish
16) laying burdens on small people, while leaving big names in bibleschools, synods, and gospelmusic
untouched and unmentioned
17) connecting himself to Kirk Cameron, know throughout the world for the message of a future antichrist
with Left Behind
18) himself not being able to go to Wallmart for fear of sinning, yet laying on big burdens on everyone else
19) printing his own material as though it is manna from heaven, yet is only copying a little text everyone
knows with some questions
20) saying he serves the God of heaven, yet he himself is an idolater of the ring on his own finger
21) his minister is Jeff Nobblit who teaches a future antichrist, that gain is godliness, and remains in the
SBC although a complete apostate body with a statue for Billy Graham
22) closing the Kingdom of God for the people by keeping silent about the true contents of the witness of the old paths
23) denying the true witness of the Waldenses, the reformers, the english puritans, the scottish covenanters
24) denying the true witness of Augustine against Pelagius, Luther against Rome, the Westminster and Dordt Synods
25) being a facilitator and manipulator replacing the true religion of the King Jesus Christ with a false one of the new world order

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iansmith Dec 16, 2008

Honestly, reading through these 25 indictments... the first thing that pops into my head is, 'If Paul Washer isn't preaching true biblical Christianity, who is?!'

I'll respond to them one at a time, although I don't personally think that Paul would need to give this guy the time of day, the writer seems more interested in cutting people down than helping them onto the correct path.

[i]1) willfully limiting the subjectmatter of Scripture[/i]
A. In what way does Paul Washer limit the subject matter of scripture? I have heard him preach from the Old Testament to the New Testament, from Abraham to Revelations. Please be specific.

[i]2) willfully presenting his own fabricated version of true christianity[/i]
A. While listening to Paul Washer preach, I can check my bible to see if it corresponds with what he is preaching -for the most part I find that what Paul Washer preaches is in harmony with the Word of God. Again, please be specific.

[i]3) willfully bringing himself under a cloak of godliness[/i]
A. He has made the claim in his testimony, maybe not in so many words, that his time as a missionary in Peru had a sanctifying effect on him, he also points to a dorm room experience of crying out to God that helped him to see Jesus more clearly. Although, Paul Washer preaches often that he is a sinner, and continues to sin, I do not think that he is claiming a special holiness or godliness -beyond what is promised to the believer in scripture. Again, please be specific -you know, Martin Luther was specific!

[i]4) willfully closing the book of Revelation and the Prophets[/i]
A. The book of revelations says that is profitable for anyone to read the book and meditate on its contents... it does not say that we are supposed to conjecture upon their meanings, nor create complex eschatology or 'Left Behind' books. I think that Paul Washer is right in taking the emphasis off of what is only conjecture and putting it on the Gospel, the work of Christ on the cross of Calvary. Mr. Washer said we will know on that last day, everything there is to know about the last day, but we will spend all Eternity trying to fully comprehend what Jesus did on Calvary and never fully know all that he did for us -that is a beautiful picture of heaven, and in keeping with Scripture.

[i]5) willfully painting the graves of the prophets for his own selfish ends[/i]
A. We are talking about the same Paul Washer aren't we?

[i]6) willfully presenting himself since 2002 with remarks that show Billy Graham to be his brother, although Graham is high in the world and an archdeceiver[/i]
A. I have never been a big fan of Billy Graham, although I was listening to a sermon by him to some missionary candidates given in the 1960's and boy was it on fire! Whether or not Billy Graham is saved or not is an issue of wheat and chaff, leave it up to the angels -but I believe that he has demonstrated more than enough fruit for me as a believer to trust in his testimony. I really wonder where you get off being the judge of people's salvation, is that your job?

[i]7) comparison with the whole of Scripture and the true old paths of the Reformation show him to be a cloud without water[/i]
A. Again, specifics... what did the Church Fathers and Reformers and Puritans say that would clearly demonstrate Paul Washer to be nothing more than a false prophet, a 'cloud without water?'

[i]8) connection in the Netherlands to all false christianity has to offer, even with those who publicly say calvinism is a complete error[/i]
A. Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about... who was he associated with in the Netherlands, what was their false doctrine?

[i]9) presenting himself in 80.000 newspapers in the Netherlands smiling as though the sins of the churches and the land are no problem to him[/i]
A. There are scriptures in Timothy that say a deacon should be above reproach, and have a strong reputation in the community. As Christians we are going to face persecution for our beliefs, but at the same time, other should regard us as stalwart and noble for the same beliefs. Keith Green once said that when Christians were called to suffer persecution, it wasn't a call to be obnoxious.

[i]10) proclaiming a message of revival that has never come, thereby telling lies in Gods Name.[/i]
A. Wow, wait, huh! Are you discounting all revivals in history, or the concept of revivals, or just the type of revival that Paul Washer is preaching about? What does the bible have to say about revivals? Are they biblical?

[i]11) accepting in the core of his message two contradictive systems of doctrine[/i]
A. Again, please be specific, which doctrines and how are they contradictory?

[i]12) denying the witness of the Holy Spirit in the Reformation against THE antichrist in Rome[/i]
A. You'll have to point me to this one in Paul's Preaching, don't know where you're getting it. As far as I've heard, Paul comes down pretty hard on Catholic teachings as being false doctrine.

[i]13) denying the blood of hunderthousands christian brothers and sisters against THE antichrist in Rome[/i]
A. According to your eschatology Rome is the AntiChrist, but the way I read it, it could very easily be that the United States is Babylon. Frankly speaking, the book of Revelations isn't so clear on the topic. As far as martyrs go, I haven't ever heard him dismiss their testimonies -you're going to have to point me to some youtube video on this one.

[i]14) going around the USA and the world to gain one proselyte that he makes a clone of himself[/i]
A. You know, Paul Washer preaches out of the bible, if anything he wants to get young men and women into the Word of God... sometimes he says things which at face value may seem legalistic, but he is usually saying them in the context of scripture. He preaches on salvation through grace by faith... not exactly a modern day pharisee -there are plenty of more Pharisaical preachers out there whom you could pick on, you may want to take a look in the mirror.

T
TaylorOtwell Dec 16, 2008

I wonder if he followed the Biblical principles of Matthew 18 and approached and discussed these things with Mr. Washer before publishing them?

If not, the Lord has an indictment against [b]him[/b].

With care in Christ,
Taylor

I
iansmith Dec 16, 2008

[i]15) being silent about the developements in the outside world, only preaching for his own parish[/i]
A. We are talking about Paul Washer, missionary to Peru for a decade, and founder of HeartCry Missionary Society? Plus you spelled developments incorrectly.

[i]16) laying burdens on small people, while leaving big names in bibleschools, synods, and gospelmusic untouched and unmentioned [/i]
A. So what you are doing is saying that the sin of a bible college is inherintly more sinful than the sin of a 'nobody' small person. Please remind me what John the Baptist's message was? Repent! Who was he saying it to? A lot of times, the small people... Jesus didn't go out of his way to preach against the pharisees, but when they attacked him, they made themselves easy targets. Again, this shows your agenda, but not God's! If you want to preach against the evils of these institutions, which I am sure you are doing, feel free, but don't expect the same of others -because they may actually be reading their bibles. "And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?' How did Jesus respond? "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." (Luke 9:54-55)

[i]17) connecting himself to Kirk Cameron, know throughout the world for the message of a future antichrist with Left Behind [/i]
A. For someone with an obvious interest in eschatology, you seem to be taking pretty broad swipes here. I guess you're only really interested in your own interpretation of the end times. I myself have never read Left Behind, nor do I intend to waste my time doing so, but I believe Kirk Cameron to be a honest and earnest Evangelist, even if he has gotten himself entangled with the Left Behind garbage.

[i]18) himself not being able to go to Wallmart for fear of sinning, yet laying on big burdens on everyone else[/i]
A. Spelled Walmart wrong. I think it shows ignorance on your part if you believe that Walmart can offer such low prices without hurting someone in the supply chain. Either they are exploiting the people at the supply end, or during manufacturing, or our local economies... everyone suffers from Walmart. Walmart is not a Christian institution, they are a business, and as such, they have a bottom line. Walmart's bottom line is not to help people, it is to make money! If you do any reading on the subject, you will be more wary of what you purchase from big box stores. I didn't know that Paul Washer was anti-Walmart, but knowing that he was a missionary in a poor country like Peru, it makes sense. Walmart hurts poor people, not just abroad, but also here in the states.

[i]19) printing his own material as though it is manna from heaven, yet is only copying a little text everyone knows with some questions.[/i]
A. I got a couple issues of the HeartCry newsletter, they were ok, nothing to write home about. I think this is a standard practice for most ministries. As far as I know Paul Washer hasn't written any books yet. If you want to take aim at some people who should be roasted over the coals for their 'printing' of materials that are contrary to the Gospel, you could always take aim at Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, TD Jakes, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland etc.

[i]20) saying he serves the God of heaven, yet he himself is an idolater of the ring on his own finger[/i]
A. Wow, attacking anyone that wears a wedding ring as an idol worshiper. Anyone else on this forum wear a wedding ring? I don't (yet), but I don't think it is an idol any more than any other object or possession can become an idol to a person -I believe that there is scripture that says that the antichrist will forbid people to marry. Just something for an the eschatology inclined to consider.

[i]21) his minister is Jeff Nobblit who teaches a future antichrist, that gain is godliness, and remains in the SBC although a complete apostate body with a statue for Billy Graham[/i]
A. This guy doesn't like the SBC or Billy Graham, so guilt by association. Even if there are plenty of bible centered, Christ focused Southern Baptist Churches... and if you had actually listened to Mr. Washer preach, you'd realize that he is usually preaching against problems within the Southern Baptist denomination. As for Jeff, I've only heard one of his sermons (the one about dogs, if you know which one I'm referring to), but it was a wonderful sermon with a clear Gospel presentation.

[i]22) closing the Kingdom of God for the people by keeping silent about the true contents of the witness of the old paths[/i]
A. Are you talking about Old Path's Magazine, the one that Greg Gordon puts out? I'm just kidding... can you PLEASE BE MORE SPECIFIC!

[i]23) denying the true witness of the Waldenses, the reformers, the english puritans, the scottish covenanters[/i]
A. You know, most of the people that you listed had strong disagreements with each other. You probably couldn't get an English puritan, a Scottish covenanter and a German reformer in the same room without some kind of fist fight over doctrine. These people didn't agree, I bet they wouldn't agree with you either. Although I do like some Puritan theology, and the works of the reformers -no one's theology is perfect, I have yet to find any person in history who had an exclusive claim on inerrancy except the Lord Jesus Christ.

[i]24) denying the true witness of Augustine against Pelagius, Luther against Rome, the Westminster and Dordt Synods[/i]
A. So you're a reformed guy... wait, Paul Washer is a reformed guy too... @_@ i'm so confused! Want to flush this out some more so I can understand?

[i]25) being a facilitator and manipulator replacing the true religion of the King Jesus Christ with a false one of the new world order[/i]
A. New World Order? Are you a conspiracy theorist too? Oh no... I've been trolled. -_- I fail.

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narrowpath Dec 16, 2008

What motivates you to post these accusations from someone unknown out of nowhere against a preacher? Is it your opinion as well? Even if it was true on all counts, you have not checked this with Paul Washer in person before posting it as laid out in Matthew 18.

Would you stand up before God and repeat these accusations? Would you like to be accused like this in public? Would you be happy to see Paul Washer come into disrepute?

A
Abe_Juliot Dec 17, 2008

som man posted this about paul washer and sent it to me

bible1985,

It is biblical for this "man" to speak to Paul Washer first... before this is brought to others.
He should not be spreading these accusations and neither should we post them, if Paul Washer has not been addressed by this man. If the man has already done this, he should be the one presenting the indictments in this thread (with a second witness). I know that it would make interesting discussion to ponder these indictments. However, it is unnecessary and wrong to spread evil speaking of a brother. (even if it is merely for discussion)

brothers and sisters, I exhort you not to spread this thread by addressing the indictments... until the man who wrote them has spoken to Paul Washer himself and brought himself with a second witness to this thread.

1 Timothy 5:19
"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."

-Abraham

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MaryJane Dec 17, 2008

Greetings

This post come across as gossip and slander and should not have been posted in the first place.


MJ

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iansmith Dec 17, 2008

Abe, Mary,

I replied to the accusations, because if you read them carefully, the author obviously contradicts themselves and doesn't have a firm grasp on biblical or historical Christianity. I don't think that Paul Washer has anything to worry about from this individual -they didn't even use spell check.

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White_Stone Dec 17, 2008

I did this on one of my posts when I saw it was posted in error. Perhaps the one who started the thread will consider doing that.

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PaulWest Dec 17, 2008

This thread is tasteless, unfounded, gossipy and just downright false. A reference to Calvinism is also included - which we have kindly asked all who participate here to avoid stirring up. What would prompt a person to post something like this in a SermonIndex forum?

I am locking this thread due to the gratuitous reference to Calvinism and the shameful accusations aimed at brother Washer. Do not post material like this here.

Thread locked.

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bible1985 Dec 17, 2008

yah, i was just posting what someone sent me not my own beliefs. I am guessing someone possibly from this sight sent it to me because it was sent on my email. You all need to calm down, i haven't done anything evil, i actually wanted to here you guys defend paul because i disagree with the man. Sometimes you guys get a little to upset on this site for being christians, i get sick of this.

This discussion is locked.

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