The Greenock Conference - Was it irrelevent?

The preaching was lack lustre, especially the last night and the last address, which was bizzare even beyond Bentley standards

The good folks a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

Great good was done at Lakeleand

Thank you, and welcome to SermonIndex.

whisperingword

I have more sympathy with your comments than you would guess from what I am going to say but...

I think you are saying that you did not get what you expected. The distance between expectation and realization is called 'disappointment'; it is a condition common to our race. ;-)

One of the inevitable consequences of a gathering such as the revival conference is that there are lots of different expectations. We all pray for revival but what is perceived as an 'answer to prayer' by one will be regarded as a disappointment by another.

I was present at the conference and my 'reactions' were very mixed. Some aspects left me feeling very disturbed and yet I am glad that I was there.

Was it revival? It depends on your definition. Churchill once famously referred to a victory which was not the 'end' and 'not even the beginning of the end' but was the 'end of the beginning'. I am not sure that Greenock was even that but it was a 'step' for many and in that I rejoice.

for Paul: the final speaker was Keith Daniels

So I gather from this post that you believe God is the instigator of the 'Revival' in Lakeland. I can understand why you were disappointed in Greenock then. There was no hype, no playing on emotions, just a heavy sense of God's presence which I havent experienced in a long time (years by the way, not months)

I was there with 7 others who all have come home minsitered to by God. One in particular has been nothing short of transformed in his walk with God. He's on a completely new level compared to before the conference.

As for me. Everything ministered to me. Everything hit home. I was broken for my lack of dedication to God and came home knowing I cannot be the same again as did the majority of people who were with me. We have now started a Prayer meeting for personal and corporate revival in my house and I have been studying and praying more as a result as have all the party with me.
.... and I am not the sort of person who meets God everywhere I go and neither are the others. I have seen false fire in Toronto and Lakeland and many other places being an ex-pentecostal church member. I can honestly say that never in any hyper emotional meeting have I been ministered to to the same depth as in that conference.

As for the comments about the preaching - especially regarding the last speaker (Keith Daniel) - nonsense! I think the last message was for you. Deceived in spirit. Harsh - but by your words I feel it is justified.

I've said a lot more than I planned but I am shaken by the origainl post and had to comment.

God bless those who orgainsed that Conference - we will never be the same again!

Hi Whispering Word,

1) A small constituency in the Christian church got 'blessed up.' They would have got blessed up whereever they were and whatever they were doing mind you. They came intent on doing business with God as they saw it, and did so.

This comes off as cynical to me and with an attitude like this we will never see revival. One of the challenges we face as Ron pointed out is our expectations. Are we prepared to be content with God's agenda? Will we rejoice and be thankful for the things that God does accomplish? Will we dismiss things too wonderful for us? I for one was not 'blessed up' in some bizarre charismatic sense, but came away with a sense of victory and grace that I have never known. We should caution ourselves not to speak evil or condescendingly of things that we know not of.

The preaching was lack lustre, especially the last night and the last address, which was bizzare even beyond Bentley standards.

I think this is a stretch. The preaching and teaching I attended to was very good, mostly. I would take issue with those that looked on the move of God Wednesday Night with a 'Michal style' (Saul's daughter that mocked David for dancing before the Lord) disdain. There was a breakthrough that was happening on a spiritual level in many peoples lives that will have an impact in time and eternity.

As for the last night being bizarre beyond Bentley, I think that is a bit strong. I personally do not relate to the style in the slightest and do not share many of the views expressed, but to compare someone to Todd Bentley is almost to suggest they are involved in the [i]Occult[/i]. As with any ministry we should be good Bereans and keep our discernment up. We need to discern the spirit behind the message. Does it square with the fruit of the Spirit? I personally do [u]not[/u] equate fearfulness, dread and soberness with 'spiritual'.

Scripture memorization is a fairly common thing also in my circles so I was not offended by that. I know people that can recite whole books of the bible from memory. It is a product of 'bible quizzing' and other studies.

Revival did not come. Greenock is still in its sins, depression and the damnation of that present generation continues. Scotland remains untouched.

Untouched? How can anyone know that? I think sometimes we read so many sensational accounts of revival that were spoiled to almost anything God does that does not meet that. It's why I quit reading books on accounts of miracles many years ago. It creates an almost 'comic book' Christianity. It is not healthy and it skews our expectations.

The good folks a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

[color=000066]Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.
(Eccl. 7:10) [/color]

You said also that we believe our own press? Guess what? The former generation wrote [i]their own press[/i] and we believed it. Maybe [u]that[/u] is the real problem? Many are so enamored with records of the way things once were and so nostalgic in their present experience that when God does something different they view it as 'lesser' and dismiss it.

Greenock was a learning experience. God revealed some things. I said it before and I'll say it again God does not have to 'spank' His children to suit the onlookers. he does not have to vex certain with torments of mind to accomplish His purposes. God is not looking for a 'pound of flesh' He is looking to bring many sons and daughters unto glory. If lives were genuinely changed we ought to rejoice and not be quick to criticize in our hearts any step that God takes towards man or any that man in turn takes towards God.

I believe we are the better off for the conference for two reasons:

1. God did a work in individual lives that will be life lasting.

2. God revealed a great hindrance to the moving of His Spirit in any generation:

a. a willingness to touch the Ark.
b. a tendency to look with disdain on people that respond to God in a way that does not 'please' [u]them[/u].

This was essentially the sermon that Keith Daniel preached at Greenock.

Preachers in the Last Days by Keith Daniel

Clearly (to me at least), God was in control of all aspects of the Conference. I was touched from this direction, and that direction, and then from all around. The Lord was working on a personal level, as well as a corporate level - before, during, and after the "event."

The way I see it, many forest fires have been started from the burning embers of a seemingly extinguished camp fire - even after water has been poured upon it.

Before we go any further, can we just step back and see what is taking place before us.

No doubt, whispering, knows that people, just like himself, are given to being defensive.

This post was started, presumably, because people will comment heavily on it, therefore getting him noticed, and getting his website noticed.

Or, in other words, it is just a publicity scam.

Don't read too much into what he is saying.

We should be big enough to ignore it.

P.S, He probably won't even reply to the thread he started.

I am absolutely shocked at what you say as this was certainly anything but a "Blessed Up" conference as you put it. Throughout the whole three days there was a continual emphasis on brokeness and repentance, just take the Thursday morning for example when dozens of folk came forward publicly confessing sin.
As for Keith Daniels sermon I would go as far to say that it was possibly one of the best sermons I have ever heard, it was most definately biblical, it was a word in season and it certainly showed me (as if I did'nt already know) that brother Keith Daniel is concerned with speaking as God tells him to too and not in a way that simply makes him popular amongst men.
I sincerely hope more such conferences will follow, as for the comment about revival not coming, who can possibly say that? This conference was about seeking God for revival and since revival is preceeded by prayer then I am sure that this event was NOT a waste of time.

Is he referring to Brownsville Assembly of God? We believe that gifts of healing, prophesy, etc are still in effect today, however we are not of those who go chasing after signs, wonders and emotional experiences. As Paul Washer said: We have been given truth, and we cannot expect to do what is right in our own eyes and then expect the Holy Spirit to come down and bless our mess. I believe it was E.M. Bounds who said: Every revival comes, as Pentecost came, as the fruit of continued prayer. It is in the closet, with the door shut, that the sound of abundant rain will be first heard.

So I gather from this post that you believe God is the instigator of the 'Revival' in Lakeland. I can understand why you were disappointed in Greenock then. There was no hype, no playing on emotions, just a heavy sense of God's presence which I havent experienced in a long time (years by the way, not months)

Many years ago I was invited to preach in a convent in Lucknow in India; it was a charismatic catholic group. While I have a love for catholics and appreciate how God is working in many lives I am strongly anti-catholicism so I was somewhat uncomfortable at being there.

Things got worse. I was handed a chorus book which I opened at random. It had two choruses next to each other; the first was 'all over the world the Spirit is moving' and the second was 'Hail, to the virgin of Lourdes'. I breathed a silent prayer.... Lord what am i doing here!?!

It was one of those occasions when a brief inward conversation takes place..

Ron B: "Lord, what am I doing here?'

Answer: Can you love these people?

Ron B: Yes, Lord

Answer: Do you want to be a blessing to them?

Ron B: Yes, Lord.

Answer: That's how I feel.

...end of conversation. The answers in my heart did not endorse catholicism, they simply showed God's amazing grace.

When people genuinely seek the Lord, he can be found in the most extraordinary places. This does not mean that he endorses the theology of those places but simply that he has found a heart open to him. It is important to remember this principle irrespective of which side of this thread we stand. Blessing at Greenock is not necessarily an endorsement from God, but simple an expression of his amazing grace. After all, we deserve nothing, do we? Isn't that what grace means?

philologos wrote:

Ron B: "Lord, what am I doing here?'

Answer: Can you love these people?

Ron B: Yes, Lord

Answer: Do you want to be a blessing to them?

Ron B: Yes, Lord.

Answer: That's how I feel.

Hello Ron, could you share more what happened after that? What was the practical result of this conversation? How did you express God's love to these people, and how you was a blessing to them?

Thank you.

The [u]good folks[/u] a Greenock will not reach this generation. Cannot reach their own generation, and would be happier in a past generation, which is dead.

I want to return for a moment to this point. I simply cannot agree with it at all. When I arrived in Greenock I had a house stay with a couple that I shall leave unnamed. Because of a little confusion [u]did[/u] not think their visitor was coming. However, I showed up after the Tuesday Night conference as a surprise to them. But they took me right in with amazing hospitality

I observed this couple with amazement. In my mind they are part of a remnant in Greenock that loves God and are making a difference. I was so blessed that I can hardly imagine. I found a remnant in Reading and again in Liverpool. Truly there is a remnant in the UK that seeks after God. I am reminded of the passage:

[color=000066]“A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth.” (Isa 53:3)[/color]

I did not sense a 'lukewarmness' in these certain local churches or with this family. I had a real sense of the presence of God. I live in the bible belt of America.I have been in a lot of churches and meetings. There are at least 5 churches within walking distance of my house. But God is at work at a different level in these places I visited in the UK.I come away tremendously encouraged.

Hello Ron, could you share more what happened after that? What was the practical result of this conversation? How did you express God's love to these people, and how you was a blessing to them?

I am sure that if I had targeted the group with this topic I would have been tense and the hearers would have been defensive. But I continued without a strategy and quite oblivious to the implications of what I was preaching.

They were very warm towards me and some of the nuns, in particular, said they had never thought about such things. The priests seemed comfortable with it all. They seemed encouraged.

As regards the long term 'results' I have no way of knowing what happened to any of these folks. I never visited them again and this story is now 35 years old!! I work on the principal that I am not called to be a strategist but simply a foot soldier. I don't have to have plans, or submit to premature progress reports... the day is coming when all things will be assessed. All I have to do is 'the next thing' and leave the consequences to the Strategist. It is a simply life... ;-)

Hi Brother...

Maybe our expectations of what "revival really is" aren't exactly set to the Biblical, non-theatrical standard? If I recall, Paul (that wonderful apostle) actually put one man to sleep (who fell out a window and died). Perhaps it would be good to learn what revival IS NOT before we create manmade definitions of what it IS.

"And Nathanael said unto him, '[i]Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth[/i]?'" - John 1:24

I am continually amazed at how we Christians can write our own press and believe it.

Including your own?;

"[i]In me, the root of this Scrooge like attitude is a spirit that is unthankful. Yes, a spirit of unthankfulness is the root cause of so many ills. Bitterness, depression, refracted vision, hate, anger and all the associated physical manifestations of a multitude of spiritual ills can trace their root cause to a lack of thankfulness.[/i]"

Got a feeling Enid is likely right here, neverthelesss;

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Irrelevent ... An interesting choice of words.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

I work on the principal that I am not called to be a strategist but simply a foot soldier. I don't have to have plans, or submit to premature progress reports... the day is coming when all things will be assessed. All I have to do is 'the next thing' and leave the consequences to the Strategist. It is a simply life..

I really like this. Too often, (as I perceive) revival minded Christians tend to measure their life in Christ only by kairos moments: those special times in God when chronos time seems interrupted, cracked open, suspended to make room for treasured spiritual stirrings.

Yet measuring our richness in Christ and our fellowship towards one another, only by the treasure of kairos moments we are going to feel disappointed, because we are undervaluing the day by day coin of chronos time. If you really study the finer history of the church, not just the glorious testimonies, but the nook and cranny stuff, when she was healthy, she abided in Christ in both kairos and chronos time.

At least that is how I've learned to see discussions like this. I wasn't there in Scotland, but if all that happened was a time of rich Christian fellowship, it was still a rich time in Christ. There's nothing to despise about that.

Blessings,

MC