I was wondering if anybody out there had any thoughts in regard to the advice/services/programs provided by Dave Ramsey? Have any of you done the "total money makeover?"
Also, what do you think of Dave Ramsey in comparison to Crown Financial?
Yep... we did. It's great. Common sense stuff, and very scriptural. He's a guy who failed miserably financially, and then began to follow Biblical principles and turned it all around.
It's not "get rich quick" or anything like that. It's about living within your means, sacrificing, and getting/staying out of debt. It's about shedding yourself of materialism, which is the greatest cause of debt.
He has a show now on FoxNews, or FoxBusiness. Cant remember which. Also has a radio show I listen to.
I highly recommend it.
Krispy
How do you presonally respond to those who would say that setting aside "emergency funds" and savings in general are contrary to "living by faith?"
How do you presonally respond to those who would say that setting aside "emergency funds" and savings in general are contrary to "living by faith?"
Well, I think that finances is only one way in which we live by faith. If we take this attitude to extremes we would not participate in Social Security and would reject any gov't based help.
I think the key is that we do not 'trust' in uncertain riches. Look at Job a very rich man. When God got ready to test His faith He knew that the Devil knew how to unload ALL of Jobs assets to the point of 'nakedness'.
I would say don't try to be faithful in a trial God has not put you in. In other words, don't make for yourselves trials and hardships to try to prove something. Life will deal you plenty of opportunities. ;-)
You need money to be hospitable. If the Samaritin were broke, busted and disgusted (as we sometimes say here), how would he have helped? Work with your hands the thing which is good so you can have to give to those in need. Wealth is not a sin. Greed is a sin.
Well... I would say it's foolish not to put aside an emergency fund. Living by faith is not the same thing as living hand to mouth. Or paycheck to paycheck. The reason most people (including Christians) dont have an emergency fund is [b]not
If someone wants to interpret "living by faith" in these terms then cancel your health insurance, your life insurance... and your car insurance. Take it one step further and let your car registration run out... and have faith you won't get caught.
I know that in most areas of the world this is how people live. Hand to mouth. But in this country, where our poorest are richer than the poor in other parts of the world... if God enables you to set aside a certain amount of money in order to keep your family fed and warm, and you dont do it... you're a fool.
I cant put my finger on them right now, but there is a lot of scripture in Proverbs especially that deals with exactly this.
That would be my answer, brother.
These kind of questions are in the same vein as "would you stop and intruder from killing your family since the Bible says 'Thou shalt not kill'?"
I understand why you're asking that, KJ. It is a legitimate question, but the reality is... most believer dont have savings because they are materialistic. And many believers will use the "living by faith" argument to justify their living beyond their means.
Krispy
I would say don't try to be faithful in a trial God has not put you in. In other words, don't make for yourselves trials and hardships to try to prove something. Life will deal you plenty of opportunities.
Amen, bro! Thats good stuff right there. Can I use that in a teaching sometime??
Krispy
I perfectly agree with the both of you :-) Indeed, I was thinking upon it recently, and have personally determined that the Scriptures promise us hardship will come our way. We live in a world full of decay, and by faith we can recognize these things and plan accordingly, just as Joseph did taking advantage of the seven years of plenty so as to come out ahead during the seven years of famine.
Also, I'm curious, what is Ramsey's justification that debt is only ok in the case of taking out a 15 year fixed rate loan for a house? He seems to abhor debt for anything else but that.
Amen, bro! Thats good stuff right there. Can I use that in a teaching sometime??
Well, if God leads by all means...
I say that because I have found that in life when I had less money- money was the trial. When I had more money health issues were the trial. When I had good health and a little money other problems became the trial. So, there are plenty of trials to go around. ;-)
I perfectly agree with the both of you Indeed, I was thinking upon it recently, and have personally determined that the Scriptures promise us hardship will come our way. We live in a world full of decay, and by faith we can recognize these things and plan accordingly, just as Joseph did taking advantage of the seven years of plenty so as to come out ahead during the seven years of famine.
Ahhh!! Thank you. I drew a blank trying to think of a scriptural example! You nailed it. Joseph had a 7 yr emergency fund set aside under the direction of God Himself.
Also, I'm curious, what is Ramsey's justification that debt is only ok in the case of taking out a 15 year fixed rate loan for a house? He seems to abhor debt for anything else but that.
The reason is that real estate is about the only thing that increases in value. Well, right now it isnt, but this is an unusual time. He does not recommend a 30 yr mortgage because your return takes too long. But on a 15 year you pay less interest, and you realize equity very quickly because you're paying down the principle faster whily the value of your house rises. (Again, right at the moment this isnt happening, but once the market adjusts, real estate will gain value again)
Car loans... you're upside down on it as soon as you drive the car out of the lot. Credit Cards nothing more than organized crime.
Never never never get an adjustable rate mortgage. It's part of the reason we're in the mortgage mess we're in right now. Rates went up, people couldn't make the payments. Voila... foreclosure.
Krispy
I've listened to the audio book of the Total Money Makeover by Ramsey, and liked it quite a bit. It still left me with a question or two. Such as, does Dave believe you should cut out giving/tithing while paying off your debts?
does Dave believe you should cut out giving/tithing while paying off your debts?
No, absolutely not. (altho, in my opinion the tithe is not a NT teaching anyway...)
Krispy
For some reason, God began very early teaching me about Himself through money. As I think about it, I learned things about prayer and how to recognize His will and voice even. Here are some things to settle early on.
Do you believe that everything you have has been given to you? Wonderful lessons here.
Stewardship: Are you a steward or are you not? More wonderful lessons here. Settles the “emergency fund” question.
The “tithing” question: 2 Cor 8: 5 - And [this they did], not as we hoped, [b]but first gave their own selves to the Lord
Is there a need to pick one of these two financial programs if they are both biblical? Listen to both. Maybe one will emerge or the Spirit of God in you will use the Word of God in both. The point is God speaks on this subject and we do well to listen and follow.
I do know Crown (Christian Financial Concepts) has existed for over 20 years. Their counseling is free. Those that teach have public testimonies of being saved and called to teach God’s Word. God has used them in saving people. I have never found their grasp of the financial condition of America wrong. I doubt any born-again Christian could have listened to their radio program for six months and continued in debt or to handle money the way the world teaches.
The Joseph reference does not support, in general, amassing an emergency saving fund. It was a [u]revealed
A related post that "happens to be made concurrently" with this thread: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26570&forum=45 ]counsel of the wicked by Arthur Pink
The more money you have the more you can give away.........someday.
article, article Paul Proctor wrote concerning a caller into the Dave Ramsey show
My wife and I just got done doing FPU two months ago. It was rather resourceful for the both of us. I would highly recommend this to anyone. I think his principles were well thought out and solid.
:-D
I don't completely agree with Dave Ramsey on a lot...but he does offer some valuable tools and methods to get out of debt. Even if those ideas are old methods. I actually prefer [url=http://www.crown.org/]Crown.Org
Lets all get out of debt!! :-)
He does not recommend a 30 yr mortgage because your return takes too long. But on a 15 year you pay less interest, and you realize equity very quickly because you're paying down the principle faster whily the value of your house rises.
Most of us can't afford a 15 year mortgage unless you put a lot of money down or you buy much less. However I have a 30yr fixed and if I just pay one extra payment a year or even just $50 a month. I would shorten my length of the load about 5-6 years! What would happen if I paid more each year...bonuses...income tax? Debt free on the house is smelling pretty good and very realistic.
What is exciting to me, is that hear from so many other believers speaking about getting out of debt, living within there means! Thats awesome..sounds to me that the Lord is doing a mighty work.
So far as I have been exposed to Dave Ramsey, I think he seems pretty sound. Of course, I don't believe tithing is something put upon those of us under the New Covenant, which I know Dave is a proponent of. Indeed, he recommends everybody give 10-15% of their income to charity in his financial software program. In reality though, most of what he says is pretty much like what many others have said on here: simply common sense. It's practical down to earth advise.
Dave spares no punches, is straight up, and isn't afraid to "tell it like it is," but I believe he does so in the proper spirit. He really does seem to be concerned with people's personal finances, and you can tell he's really excited about what he does. Though he charges for many of his materials (though I have seen on his tv show/radio program that he covers the same things mentioned in his materials), he does so at a reasonable rate, gives you high quality and well thought out material, and has a rather loose copyright policy (he says you can freely share his material so long as you aren't trying to profit from it).
Personally, I find him rather inspiring and uplifting. He admits none of his material is new, and frequently drops references to Crown.org and others. But, I think the way he has packaged his teachings is in a rather fresh manner. He's got me really excited about not using debt as a "tool" in my life, saving up $1,000 for an emergency fund, and snowballing my way out of debt. Granted, I am not exactly following his "baby steps" in perfect order, as I am doing some overlap with a small monthly investment plan. But as it stands, and the present rate, according to Dave's software, I will be debt free in 3.5 years. That assumes, of course, nothing slips and breaks that prevents such from happening e.g. job loss.
But as it stands right now, I feel pretty excited about paying my bills. No more does it feel like a dread. I have a working budget and a plan. I feel debt free already. I am believing the Lord to enable me to live by my budget every month, and faithfully pay off my bills. I don't believe it's God's will for me to be in debt anymore. I'm sick and tired of debt. I don't want anything to do with it anymore.
But as it stands right now, I feel pretty excited about paying my bills. No more does it feel like a dread. I have a working budget and a plan. I feel debt free already. I am believing the Lord to enable me to live by my budget every month, and faithfully pay off my bills. I don't believe it's God's will for me to be in debt anymore. I'm sick and tired of debt. I don't want anything to do with it anymore.
That's great. That's an encouraging testimony to me.
There are a few Proverbs and other Scripture concerning the error and sin of debt and usury. I just recently read such an example from a brief biography of C.H. Spurgeon, out of "All of Grace":
"Back with his parents, he grew up in a home with strong Puritan teachings and faithful, restrained lives to match. There was no known hypocrisy in his parents' lives. And the Spurgeons did not allow it in their offspring. By outward standards, he and his siblings were exemplary children.
Little Charles once lost his pencil and decided to buy one at the store on credit. When his father found out, he gave him a lecture on the sins of debt that he never forgot.
'I was marched off to the shop like a deserter marching into barracks, crying bitterly all down the street and feeling dreadfully ashamed, because I thought everybody knew I was in debt. The farthing was paid amid solemn warnings, and the poor debtor was set free like a bird out of a cage.'"
Likewise, my father has always warned me against credit cards saying, "if you can't pay in full, you don't need it." Good advice. There are a very few exceptions but excellent practical advice.
In regards to tithing, the 10% is according to the law contained in ordinances. The law of faith says however, to be cliche, "it all belongs to God." Therefore, give as each one has need.
To be wise in this manner of tithing and offerings, for those who are seriously indebt, if I may, offer two bits of advice:
1) reform your lifestyle.
2) you are the one who has need, others ought to be giving to you, yet this does not excuse you from the work of service (ministry).
Personally, I slept at home for around 3 years, or so, on an air-mattress and a futon. I would still be doing so if my parent's hadn't interfered and bought me a new mattress.
Got to love parents, that's what they are there for ;-)
Now obviously, this can be mischievous (ie. those who are living beyond their means because they would spend themselves on the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life and meanwhile desiring the charitable to pick up their lack, so they may continue in comforts). So there needs to be the consideration as to whether or not those things which are causing the financial burden ought better to be lost. And then, so what? you lost a house, a car, etc. Are you living (and trusting) for retirement or the providence of God in Christ? Better to die homeless than in hell if the cares of this world should choke the life out of your spirits. It is amazing to consider "how impossible it is to live without" until I see how many people indeed live well enough without. All of those "inconveniences" are only inconvenient to those who are spoiled with much of this world. And besides, if the church is quickened unto unity in the Spirit and evangelical works they will be there to bear the burden with you and your family. Once either 1) the debt is paid or 2) the property is removed then continue again in giving of yourself and of your substance to those in need, just as Christ and His church has so given to each of us. Again an important note on this, this does not give the leeway for those indebt for the withholding of one's self from those in need. And likewise, the "reform your lifestyle" is of utmost necessity even for those who are not presently in debt.
It would appear as though Dave Ramsey and these other ministries mentioned are giving sound advice on being content with "food and raiment" and how to handle the bills however even greater is when we actually heed such advice and live as missionaries, as sojourners in a strange land with eager expectation, waiting patiently, not for a house or retirement or city built by man but for an eternal dwelling established in the heavens by God.
Honestly, I do not disagree with keeping a savings, but we may fairly well measure your spiritual life by the manner in which you engage your money. In this regard, speaking of Charles Spurgeon, he was giving some 80% of his own income in tithes and offering for the purposes of ministry. And similar testimonies may be added of many renowned servants of God.
In summary, if you have need then the church ought to be giving to you. All of this "give more to the church and that is how we shall live by faith to overcome this financial crisis" is nonsense! If you tithe 10%, or more, you shall be exactly 10%, or more, poorer. There is no such promise as sowing money to reap more money. Just thinking about this is giving me the urge to preach it up but I will relent; besides, I am preaching to the choir here :-P
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